Germany Navy, Again

[trihero]

Last weekend we tried with my friends KJF tactic. UK IC in india, USA IC in sinkiang, this totally blocked the Japan expansion and secured the eastern flank for soviets. This is a really powerful option for Allies, but risky in the 2-3 turns when japans try either IC to take control of it.

That’s not a risk I would ever take. I have no problems taking India on turn 3 unless the Russians send massive reinforcement, which isn’t likely. It’s not a powerful tactic at all if the Japanese are focused on taking out the IC.

1st turn UK destroyer buy, would slow germans or make them lose more material to go to sz7.

Well ultimately a destroyer is an inefficient buy; it doesn’t help you with your land war at all.

The Allies would be breathing very hard on your neck from turn 3 or 4 and gaining strength every turn. I don’t see how letting the allies gain free reign on seas would help you,

You are arguing my side! If you don’t build anything in the Baltic then the Allies have free reign of the seas from round one. Sitting in the Baltic with no naval purchase is suicide. You don’t have to link your fleets if you don’t like the idea, but you should buy something for the Baltic fleet at least. It’s not like you’re going to get Africa anyways even if you leave the med fleet to reinforce it.

[Thamor]

My point was that you don’t move from baltic sea. I have always bought AC for germans, from my second time playing as germans when I noticed from Japan side how powerful tool it was. And I have played from the moment this game hit the stores  :-D

My whole game German Naval purchase if I am going for Moscow finish is
-AC
-1Dest
-1-2 Trans

Destroyer I buy because the mediterran fleet is very easy to sink with planes, if you only have BB to shield it.

If I were thinking from moving from baltic sea I would maybe do something like this. Turn 1 I would move to free Anglo-Egypt, with BB and 1trans and taking the UK destroyer down, after that I would move back. And on Turn 3 I would try linking the fleets, you can watch turn 1 what UK will do and USA, where they buy their first purchases and after that decide what to do + turn 2 you still have time to equip your baltic fleet with maybe 1sub/trans and destroyer to give it more survivability and if they make mistake on turn 2 transports + planes to attack UK you will have and after linking your fleet you would have 3 transports, which will make it Turn 3 UK must attack or fear of losing UK  :wink:

[Guest]

Thamor…

Your last post was confusing… you said “Baltic” fleet, but then refered to a BB and Africa, which would be Med fleet.

Please clarify.

[wilkinson1974]

I have played 3 mock games using the German merge.  In all 3 games, I employed a KGF strategy.  I had Russia taking both WRussia and the Ukraine in all games.  I had Russia hold the line against the Germans, and let Japan do as they may.  I had GB taking Norway out of the gate in all games.  I also had GB buying a second AC in the second round with the German Juggernaut brewing in SZ7, and always was able to get at least 1 american plane to help defend.  I had the US holing up in Brazil the first round and coming into algeria the second round in force.  I had Japan playing the aggressive China first, Sinkiang second while making gains in the north and south as well.  The Eastern front stalled in all games with a lack of ground expenditure by the Germans in the 1st round, and the Brits getting at least 8 viable ground units into Europe in the first round.  In the first 2 games, I had the German fleet splash the British fleet in the 3rd round.  This was accomplished with moderate losses.  The Germans were always left with a carrier, 2 planes, and a BB(and 2 planes and a bomber to the mainland).  On the Brit 3rd turn, I bought an AC, a tranny, and some inf.  I also brought the Indian fleet to meet them.  The US landed 2 planes in the AC and brought 2 destroyers and a couple a trannies.  Ultimately, the German fleet was destroyed, and the Allies started making headway into Europe.  The first game…  Russia fell in 6 and  Germany fell in the 7th round…  Russia was liberated in round 11.  The second game saw Russia and Germany fall in 7, with Russia being liberated in 10.  The third game I chose to sink the US fleet in Algeria.  The reamaing US fleet again merged with the sizable Brit fleet in round 3.  The subsequent attack sunk both fleets.  The Brits were back in business by round 5 with the Indian fleet formaing the backbone of the Brit Navy…  Russia fell in round 6 with Germany falling again in 7…  Russia liberated in 11.  It appears that keeping the German planes in a position to help sink the on coming fleets, and keeping them off the Russian front tipped the scales in Allies favor.  Keep in mind the planes were necessary, or the result would have been heavy German losses in the first major naval battles.  Coupled with a lack of initial ground units, the Russians were able to hold just long enough in all cases.  Germany was able to secure Africa in all cases…  It had a hard time capturing and keeping territory on the Russian front.

Wilk

[Guest]

@wilkinson1974:

and the Brits getting at least 8 viable ground units into Europe in the first round.

How???  They have 2 trannis to start…  4 units can be moved…

[trihero]

Coupled with a lack of initial ground units, the Russians were able to hold just long enough in all cases.  Germany was able to secure Africa in all cases….  It had a hard time capturing and keeping territory on the Russian front.

Play a mock game where you don’t buy any German navy and get “plenty” of initial ground troops… You will find that you will stall even faster on the Russian front, because the UK and US will be dropping troops all over you really fast. If Germany can secure Africa, then Germany should be able to hold out until Japan wipes out Russia. It seems like Germany isn’t properly retreating and forming stacks if he controls that much land and has stalled the US/UK navy for that long.

If you think you can siphon enough troops and airforce with Germany to crush Russia early and ignore the Allies, then the Allies are doing something very wrong.

[wilkinson1974]

meant second round…  8 units in the first 2 rounds…  enough to stall a German offensive without ground purchases in first round.

@ncscswitch:

@wilkinson1974:

and the Brits getting at least 8 viable ground units into Europe in the first round.

How???  They have 2 trannis to start…  4 units can be moved…

[wilkinson1974]

In each game, Germany was able to break into Egypt safely in the 3rd round, expanding in the 4th round.  You can’t bring troops from Europe into Egypt in the first round when you are bring the tranny West to meet the rest of the fleet.  And you can’t bring planes to help in a 2nd round attack of Egypt and get them into an attacking position on the British fleet in round 3.  The Germans were able to take Egypt by ground force in the 3rd round.  So they don’t have the extra IPCs the first 3 rounds like you were probably thinking.  I should have been more clear.  My bad.

Wilk

@wilkinson1974:

meant second round…   8 units in the first 2 rounds…   enough to stall a German offensive without ground purchases in first round.

@ncscswitch:

@wilkinson1974:

and the Brits getting at least 8 viable ground units into Europe in the first round.

How???  They have 2 trannis to start…  4 units can be moved…

[trihero]

I don’t see where the Brits could land safely in the first 2 rounds if the Germans start with a carrier purchase and have 2 fighters on it, plus at least 2 fighters in Western Europe and probably a bomber.

If the Brits land in Norway in the first 2 turns obviously they’re going to get counterattacked super hard.

If the Brits land in Archangel/Karelia, then the German response is going to be 4 fighters + 1 bomber. 2 fighters from the carrier move 2 spaces to attack them, and 2 fighters from Western Europe are declared to land on the carrier which will move left and up to pick them up.

The Brits can’t land safely in the first 2 turns unless the German navy is moved out of range. You do not have to deal with 8 UK ground troops stalling you.

[wilkinson1974]

You would send the planes naked?  A good way of losing fighters…  Where will the troops come from?  If you pull them from Germany, the transport won’t be able to move to sz7 in the second round.  If the Russians leave just one inf in Karelia in the first round, you can’t bring anything from eastern europe to aid in the counter.  And yes…  that would be four dead units…  and the Brits bring in another 4 in the second round.  If you are using planes to kill Brits, they aren’t being used on the Russian front.  The Russians can stalemate that front for at least 4rounds since their supply lines are shorter than the Germans, especially if the fighters are being used to kill Brits in Norway.

[wilkinson1974]

I always attack the 3 troops on Norway(plane has probably been moved to the AC after an attack somewhere on Russian front) in the first round with 2inf, a cannon, a tank, 2 fighters, and bombardment.  Usually, three brits units are left standing with Norway in Brit control.  Most Germans wouldn’t give up planes to hit those troops.  4 units come the next round if Germany decides to counter.  They won’t be able to counter with ground troops if they wish to stockpile the fleet at sz7 in the second round.

Wilk

@wilkinson1974:

You would send the planes naked?  A good way of losing fighters…  Where will the troops come from?  If you pull them from Germany, the transport won’t be able to move to sz7 in the second round.  If the Russians leave just one inf in Karelia in the first round, you can’t bring anything from eastern europe to aid in the counter.  And yes…  that would be four dead units…  and the Brits bring in another 4 in the second round.  If you are using planes to kill Brits, they aren’t being used on the Russian front.  The Russians can stalemate that front for at least 4rounds since their supply lines are shorter than the Germans, especially if the fighters are being used to kill Brits in Norway.

[wilkinson1974]

It just seems to me that in each game I have played…  After the remainder of the German fleet is dispatched in the 4th round, the UK is able to invade western E. in force, and the US is in a position to hard reinforce after the attack.  If Russia has supplied just enough pressure in the East, Germany doesn’t have enough firepower to take Western E back.  The Brits will reinforce Western E again, and build a factory, and the US hard reinforces again in the 6th round.  The Germans won’t try to counter because GB will be in a position to assault Germany directly if they don’t stockpile some ground units.  The 7th round is an  all out assault by the British(which Germany holds).  Britain builds on the factory.  Then the US follows with a secondary assault that typically finishes Germany off, then the US drops off more units in Western Europe.  It seems the Japan always takes at least 6 rounds to capture Moscow because of the long supply lines.  Even if Moscow falls the round before Germany, Japan isn’t fast enough to reinforce.  Trading Moscow for Berlin is a win for the Allies.  I am merelt testing out the theory of leaving Africa for a couple of rounds while you merge the fleets.  It seems to me Germany needs to get into the money well of Africa early.  And the earlier the better.

Wilk

[trihero]

the UK is able to invade western E. in force

Why isn’t Germany defending it adequately?

It’s very easy to predict how many troops can hit Western Europe, because they all come from transports. If you have a stack of like 15+ infantry then how is the UK cracking it? Especially if you have Africa money to boost your income?

[wilkinson1974]

At this point, the UK will have 5 transports in the water.  Remember, with the Germans not getting into Africa immediately, the UK will be collecting at least 33 IPCS(Norway) a round for at least the first 3 rounds.  And, I also mentioned futher in my paragraph…  If the Russians are applying pressure…  The Russians can apply pressure to Germany if the planes are kept in the West to fight Naval battles(planes that also get lost in Naval battles).  Britain with some luck can bring 5 inf, 5 cannons, 2-3 fighters, a bomber, and bomabrdment against Germany in Western Europe.  If the Germans are pulling units to fight Russians(they would be steadily losing IPCs if they aren’t), they can’t be guarding Western Europe.  Letting Russians consolidate their early land grabs can be just as deadly.  Is it even mathematically possible to keep all your eastern territory, and stockpile in western europe, when you don’t have the African budget the first 3 rounds(by virtue of the SZ7 strategy)?  I have yet to see Germany win a game without getting into Africa early in any of the games I have played.  This is why I played the games…  And posted what I have found to this point.  Rather than attacking my results…  Play the games out and post the results.  I think the strategy has viability.  I am just looking for a way to make it work.

Wilk

[trihero]

I question your strategy seriously. How is the UK sitting in Norway for the first 3 rounds? Unless he wishes to sacrifice his navy, this simply isn’t feasible if the Germans have a carrier in the Baltic. You can invade it with 2 transports worth of stuff on Round 1, but then the Baltic navy will come in and sweep your transports away, which is a horrible trade. It becomes very difficult to kill the Baltic navy if you sacrifice your navy on UK’s second turn.

At this point, the UK will have 5 transports in the water.

At what point? After he magically destroyed the Baltic fleet without any casualties? What if I move out the Baltic fleet to block Western Europe? You might be able to kill it, but you lost probably all your transports.

I’m not attacking your results, I’m attacking your strategy.

[trihero]

The Russians can apply pressure to Germany if the planes are kept in the West to fight Naval battles(planes that also get lost in Naval battles).

That’s the beauty of the carrier. You have 2 fighters that can help with any of the German fronts, and the bomber is going to be in range as well. Plus, any fighters in Western Europe can attack Karelia and return to Western Europe. I wouldn’t sacrifice fighters against the Allied navy unless I really thought it was necessary or I could do it without sacrificing any.

[wilkinson1974]

It isn’t my strategy…  Someone else came up with the idea about merging the fleets at SZ7 in the second round as an Axis strategy.  I am saying that fleet won’t last long if GB keeps putting AC’s in the water, and the US plants planes on them, and bring its destroyers.  The merge strategy leaves the Suez open in round 1 since Germany doesn’t attack Egypt on Jordan in the 1st round. Germany in the 3rd round has a choice to make…   Sink the Brit fleet with its 2-3 trannies in the North(a fleet which can grow of the follwoing round to parity) or the US destroyers with the four trannies that have taken Algeria in force.   In my games, I attacked(and sank) the Brit fleet in the 3rd round off of Norway, taking considerable losses…  In the same 3rd round, GB has the ability to drop an AC and a tranny in SZ7.  The Indian fleet consolidates with its tranny.  The US drops 2 fighters on the AC and consolidates the destroyers.  GB has the ability to drop 3 trannies  in round 4.  There are the 5 trannies for the assault in round 5.  You will have 2 fighters from the indian plane…  and the plane picked by the indian fleet on their pass through the Med.  The Bomber might survive to this point as well.  The UK can also slowly build ground units on the island while the navy plays out.  They always had 5inf and 5 cannons at the beginning of the 5th round.  I am not just pulling these numbers out of thin air.

Wilk

[trihero]

They always had 5inf and 5 cannons at the beginning of the 5th round

That’s plenty of time to get enough defense in Western Europe. 5 rounds is a long time.

[wilkinson1974]

You would send naked fighters against Britis ground forces in Norway and Karelia?  In German merge strategy, the Baltic tranny moves with the fleet into SZ7 on G2.  Therefore, you can’t bring ground units to protect your attacking fighters if you want to go after the British units in Norway on G2 or G3.  The Russians don’t have the units to push from the North…  They will push from the south.  The British would only be a moderate distraction in the North.  They have prortection from the water in Norway in round 2(brits still have control of Norway), and all of them(6-7 units) move into Karelia on GB3(No the Germans won’t stockpile in Karelia since they are outnumbered in the south).

Again…  the German merge strategy is not mine.  I am only looking for a way to make it viable.  So far, I have found the Allies can counter it.

Wilk

@trihero:

The Russians can apply pressure to Germany if the planes are kept in the West to fight Naval battles(planes that also get lost in Naval battles).

That’s the beauty of the carrier. You have 2 fighters that can help with any of the German fronts, and the bomber is going to be in range as well. Plus, any fighters in Western Europe can attack Karelia and return to Western Europe. I wouldn’t sacrifice fighters against the Allied navy unless I really thought it was necessary or I could do it without sacrificing any.

[wilkinson1974]

The question is…  Can you do it without the money being generated from Africa, with the Russians pushing in the south(knocking you back 5-6 IPCs from round 1), the British stinking their nose in the North(taking another 3 IPCs round 1), taking heavy losses while sinking the British fleet.  In the games I have played to this point…  You can’t cover all sides.  Please read all my posts over again.  I shouldn’t have to post how every round went for you get an idea that Germany was being attacked in the South, in the North, in the Med, and in the North Sea.  The US was pushing 35IPCs into Germany every round, GB was pushing 33, and the Russians pushed 27-30.  Every round for the 4 rounds…  After that the USSR had to back off due to the Japanese.  However, by that time…  The German fleet was destroyed.  The US had the capacity to ferry at least 6 units a round into Europe, and GB could ferry 4(with 10 being possible in round 5).  The Germans were only producing at about 35 a round the first 3 rounds since the Med tranny never ferried troops to Egypt.  They ferried to algeria which was overrun by the 8 american troops in US2.    If the Germans moved the algerian forces and libyan forces in egypt in G3, they could get into africa at that point.  The means Germany was being outbuilt roughly 95 to 35 in the first 3 rounds.  That is what I am wondering…  Can Germany last 8 rounds being outproduced 60IPCs the first 4 rounds, and being outbuilt by 30IPCs over the next 4?  I am not seeing it as a possibility.

Wilk

@wilkinson1974:

You would send naked fighters against Britis ground forces in Norway and Karelia?  In German merge strategy, the Baltic tranny moves with the fleet into SZ7 on G2.  Therefore, you can’t bring ground units to protect your attacking fighters if you want to go after the British units in Norway on G2 or G3.  The Russians don’t have the units to push from the North…  They will push from the south.  The British would only be a moderate distraction in the North.  They have prortection from the water in Norway in round 2(brits still have control of Norway), and all of them(6-7 units) move into Karelia on GB3(No the Germans won’t stockpile in Karelia since they are outnumbered in the south).

Again…  the German merge strategy is not mine.  I am only looking for a way to make it viable.  So far, I have found the Allies can counter it.

Wilk

@trihero:

The Russians can apply pressure to Germany if the planes are kept in the West to fight Naval battles(planes that also get lost in Naval battles).

That’s the beauty of the carrier. You have 2 fighters that can help with any of the German fronts, and the bomber is going to be in range as well. Plus, any fighters in Western Europe can attack Karelia and return to Western Europe. I wouldn’t sacrifice fighters against the Allied navy unless I really thought it was necessary or I could do it without sacrificing any.