The Economist summed it up pretty well: Russia had to get a deal done, and the Chinese got a favorable terms as a result. They’re hardly staunch allies, just global powers that share some, but not all agendas. I’m happy for the Chinese people that the country will burn less coal as a result.
Russia escalates things
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How do you isolate the largest country on the planet. They can be self-sufficient if they want to.
Sure, they will be self-sufficient to survive. As a part of the global economy Russia and Putin’s regime will face serious problems and Europe as well. Russia is #1 natural gas supplier in Europe, for example.
The deal would be that Ukraine enters EU, but not NATO. If the deal is broken by Ukraine entering NATO, Crimea should have the option to leave Ukraine.
Won’t work. Once you in (NATO), no way away. Also, USA broke the publicly given promise that they stop NATO expansion behind Germany.
I honestly don’t know a solution.
Russia gives ultimatum to Ukrainian forces in Crimea: Clear out within 11 hours or face ‘military storm,’
That is lie coming from the neo-nazi in Kiev. I’m surprised Yahoo kept it the top news for a day.
London never wanted a unified, strong and cooperating Europe. The core of their foreign policy for last 2 centuries is in destroying any economical and political alliance between Berlin and Moscow.
Agree. London is #1 geopolitical opponent for both in Europe for many many years.
“We have no permanent friends. We have no permanent enemies. We just have permanent interests.” Winston Churchill.
Economy drives politicks and vice versa. No interest for London in good business connections between Rus and Ger. -
To be honest, Syria isn’t american Business.
Neither is Ukraine.
As for the Russian invasion. Thats a Ukrainian problem.
Here’s the bottom line. Russia wouldn’t be invading if the Ukrainians managed their government responsibly, ethically, and morally.
Instead, for decades, Ukrainian leadership has been busy lining its own pockets, and screwing the little people, who time and time again, elect the same corrupt leadership.
Then instead of helping, the whole world is in the Ukraine looking to get a slice of the action, an ear to the power, and a finger on the strings.
USA, Russia, england, Europe, africa, Asia, it Doesnt matter. Its all bad for Ukraine. The best move is not to play.
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To be honest, Syria isn’t american Business.
Neither is Ukraine.
As for the Russian invasion. Thats a Ukrainian problem.
Here’s the bottom line. Russia wouldn’t be invading if the Ukrainians managed their government responsibly, ethically, and morally.
Instead, for decades, Ukrainian leadership has been busy lining its own pockets, and screwing the little people, who time and time again, elect the same corrupt leadership.
Then instead of helping, the whole world is in the Ukraine looking to get a slice of the action, an ear to the power, and a finger on the strings.
USA, Russia, england, Europe, africa, Asia, it Doesnt matter. Its all bad for Ukraine. The best move is not to play.
Normally, I don’t go in for all the dredging up of WWII politics to make a point, but I have to say, you sound like Neville Chamberlain.
I think the question must be asked: If we do nothing now in order to preserve peace, what will we have to do in a few years when Putin thinks he can flex his muscle elsewhere?
That being said, I think people are forgetting that the U.S. and Russia still have thousands of nuclear weapons pointing at each other, even if they are less inclined to use them as they were in the Cold War. I don’t really think military action is the best possible option, but it would be a major geopolitical blunder here to just sit back and let Russia violate another nation’s sovereignty.
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I look at this situation like this: the US would do the same as Russia if Cuba was in major chaos and Guantanamo Bay thought to be under threat.
This is a Black Sea and Eastern Europe problem, not a US problem.
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@ABWorsham:
I look at this situation like this: the US would do the same as Russia if Cuba was in major chaos and Guantanamo Bay thought to be under threat.
I think that is a decent analogy, though not entirely the same situation. Guantanamo does not have an American civilian population that wants to be part of the country. I think all of Cuba wants us gone.
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Let’s look at it this way. US invaded Iraq under false pretense. They never received any sanctions for it what so ever. Now Russia invades Crimea for which they actually have better reasons then the Americans had back then. Does the western civilization really have the right to call for sanctions now? Best solution. Ask the people of each part of Ukraine what they really want. Most likely western Ukraine will want to be part of the EU. The most eastern part will desire stronger ties with Russia and the middle area will be somewhere in between.
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@Nozdormu:
Let’s look at it this way. US invaded Iraq under false pretense. They never received any sanctions for it what so ever. Now Russia invades Crimea for which they actually have better reasons then the Americans had back then. Does the western civilization really have the right to call for sanctions now? Best solution. Ask the people of each part of Ukraine what they really want. Most likely western Ukraine will want to be part of the EU. The most eastern part will desire stronger ties with Russia and the middle area will be somewhere in between. Â Â
Well said.
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@Nozdormu:
Let’s look at it this way. US invaded Iraq under false pretense. They never received any sanctions for it what so ever. Now Russia invades Crimea for which they actually have better reasons then the Americans had back then. Does the western civilization really have the right to call for sanctions now? Best solution. Ask the people of each part of Ukraine what they really want. Most likely western Ukraine will want to be part of the EU. The most eastern part will desire stronger ties with Russia and the middle area will be somewhere in between. � �
I agree, somewhat. The most peaceable (not to mention cheapest) solution would be to find out what the people of Ukraine want. If the Crimea wants to secede and join Russia, that is their deal. Russia “invading” and occupying Ukrainian territory leaves a sour (very 1938 Germany-Sudetenland) taste in the mouth. And while I early on thought of this as being the Chamberlain moment, I am not sure there is enough aggression to justify any outside action yet. I don’t know if that is appeasement or just international prudence.
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The most peaceable (not to mention cheapest) solution would be to find out what the people of Ukraine want.
Sounds reasonable enough in theory, but the problem is that “the people of Ukraine” is a tricky concept. The west, north and centre of the country are primarily ethnic Ukrainian in population, but the further east and south you go the more the proportion of ethnic Russians rises. In the Crimea, the focal point of the dispute, ethnic Ukrainians make up only about 10% of the population. Countries with marked ethnic / religious / linguistic fracture lines within their borders have a long historical track record of instability, ranging in intensity from chronic (albeit peaceful) social tensions at the low end of the scale to vicious civil wars at the high end of the scale. Belgium would be an example of the first type of situation; Rwanda and the Sudan would be examples of the the second type of situation. These conflicts are bad enough when they’re purely internal, but they become more dangerous when a major outside power has interests in the region, and still more dangerous when two or more opposing major powers have such interests.
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@CWO:
The most peaceable (not to mention cheapest) solution would be to find out what the people of Ukraine want.
Sounds reasonable enough in theory, but the problem is that “the people of Ukraine” is a tricky concept.� The west, north and centre of the country are primarily ethnic Ukrainian in population, but the further east and south you go the more the proportion of ethnic Russians rises.� In the Crimea, the focal point of the dispute, ethnic Ukrainians make up only about 10% of the population.� Countries with marked ethnic / religious / linguistic fracture lines within their borders have a long historical track record of instability, ranging in intensity from chronic (albeit peaceful) social tensions at the low end of the scale to vicious civil wars at the high end of the scale.� Belgium would be an example of the first type of situation; Rwanda and the Sudan would be examples of the the second type of situation.� These conflicts are bad enough when they’re purely internal, but they become more dangerous when a major outside power has interests in the region, and still more dangerous when two or more opposing major powers have such interests.�
Yes, I certainly understand. I knew it was not quite that simple, but what I meant was that if it can be kept a primarily Ukrainian affair (choose their own destiny), all the better. With the Russians being as disposed as they are and as large as they are, it is inevitable that they will influence the process. To some degree they should if the Crimea is to be absorbed, but again, it smacks of 1938.
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@rjpeters70:
I’m sure they do want us gone… but they can stick it, given the amount of American property Castro seized by force.
You are not very tactful. Good thing you are not an ambassador.
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@rjpeters70:
So, Ukraine is Russia’s business? What other countries are Russia’s business? Lithuania? Belarus? Kazakhstan? Poland?
You are right, Ukraine is USA�s business � like Scotland is Japanese business, Catalonia is Australian one, and Mexico is Russian.
Exactly.
@Nozdormu:
Let’s look at it this way. US invaded Iraq under false pretense. They never received any sanctions for it what so ever. Now Russia invades Crimea for which they actually have better reasons then the Americans had back then. Does the western civilization really have the right to call for sanctions now? Best solution. Ask the people of each part of Ukraine what they really want. Most likely western Ukraine will want to be part of the EU. The most eastern part will desire stronger ties with Russia and the middle area will be somewhere in between.
Exactly.
@CWO:
The most peaceable (not to mention cheapest) solution would be to find out what the people of Ukraine want.
Sounds reasonable enough in theory, but the problem is that “the people of Ukraine” is a tricky concept. The west, north and centre of the country are primarily ethnic Ukrainian in population, but the further east and south you go the more the proportion of ethnic Russians rises. In the Crimea, the focal point of the dispute, ethnic Ukrainians make up only about 10% of the population. Countries with marked ethnic / religious / linguistic fracture lines within their borders have a long historical track record of instability, ranging in intensity from chronic (albeit peaceful) social tensions at the low end of the scale to vicious civil wars at the high end of the scale. Belgium would be an example of the first type of situation; Rwanda and the Sudan would be examples of the the second type of situation. These conflicts are bad enough when they’re purely internal, but they become more dangerous when a major outside power has interests in the region, and still more dangerous when two or more opposing major powers have such interests.
Well said.
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@rjpeters70:
But if Russia and EU sign a deal, Crimea will accept it.
The deal would be that Ukraine enters EU, but not NATO. If the deal is broken by Ukraine entering NATO, Crimea should have the option to leave Ukraine.
Why wouldn’t Ukraine want to join EU but not NATO? That seems bass-ackwards to me. It would seem that Ukraine now needs NATO far more than the EU, due to Russia’s demonstrable breaking of it’s negative security guarantee to Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up it’s nuclear weapons. Frankly, I’d offer that when it comes to Russian/Ukrainian commitments, all bets are off. Ukraine should feel free to apply for NATO and EU membership.
Why wouldn`t Mexico join a Russian-Chinese military alliance? I think it is a great idea. Washington would salute it with enormous joy right? :mrgreen:
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@rjpeters70:
@Nozdormu:
Let’s look at it this way. US invaded Iraq under false pretense. They never received any sanctions for it what so ever. Now Russia invades Crimea for which they actually have better reasons then the Americans had back then. Does the western civilization really have the right to call for sanctions now? Best solution. Ask the people of each part of Ukraine what they really want. Most likely western Ukraine will want to be part of the EU. The most eastern part will desire stronger ties with Russia and the middle area will be somewhere in between. � �
What false pretenses was that? �The intelligence was wrong, but that’s not the same as making a reason up and then invading for an entirely different set of reasons. �Even the people who disagreed with the Iraq war in 2003 thought the intelligence was correct–they just disagreed on the military course of action.
Does Western Civilization really have the right to call for sanctions? �I think it’s telling that you don’t consider Russia a part of Western Civilization.
Russia is not West. Russia is East.
Invasion of Iraq was an imperial genocidal act of one frenzy world cop (USA administration of George Bush jr.) instructed by its neo-cons that seat in Pentagon.
The whole Arab Spring (CIA spring) put Libya, Syria and Egypt to stone age. Luckily, Egypt
s army found its way to take care of things.USA should stay out of Ukraine. George Soros and it`s stupid NGO-s are instructing Springs and Revolutions all over the globe, without any love to countries they are dealing with.
Janukovič is not a pro-Moscow guy and anti.Ukrainian. He just saw that Russia is offering 15 billion dolars, and that EU is offering nothing but liberating the Ukrainian economy, which will be crippled once EU enters their market.
I imagine a situation in which a few thousand protesters gather in front of White House, call Obama for somehing, and then the street forces him to resign.
Would anybody in USA and the West accept it? Off course not.
And Obama administration is waging wars all over the globe, torchering people in Guantanamo, forcing catholic hospitals to make abortions ,etc.
So , for the accusation of dictatorship, well , almost every government in the world is dictatorship, either by doing some stuff, or by not doing, by not preventing criminal, poverty and injustice.
And USA is full of criminal. Especially among Black and Hispanic population. U have quarters in which police does not enter. Is it normal? It is not. And if somebody makes protests, his demands are not fulfilled, and he wants Guantanamo down, or leaving Iraq etc. Would Obama resign?
USA has an ally in one perverted country called Saudi Arabia which is the main founder of islamic terrorism all over the globe. And nobody in the States makes problem of it.
USA, Saudi Arabia and Turkey are responsible for an agression in Syria in which millions had to leave their homes. Libya was under dictator Gadaffi, the most prosperous state in Africa. Now it is a ruin. Iraq under dictator Sadam was a safe, and secure country. Now it is a ruin with millions killed, rape or exiled. Arab countries do not need democracies, especially not CIA democracies. They are far better with military junta like in Egypt. that is simply the reality of life.
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@rjpeters70:
@rjpeters70:
But if Russia and EU sign a deal, Crimea will accept it.
The deal would be that Ukraine enters EU, but not NATO. If the deal is broken by Ukraine entering NATO, Crimea should have the option to leave Ukraine.
Why wouldn’t Ukraine want to join EU but not NATO? That seems bass-ackwards to me. It would seem that Ukraine now needs NATO far more than the EU, due to Russia’s demonstrable breaking of it’s negative security guarantee to Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up it’s nuclear weapons. Frankly, I’d offer that when it comes to Russian/Ukrainian commitments, all bets are off. Ukraine should feel free to apply for NATO and EU membership.
Why wouldn`t Mexico join a Russian-Chinese military alliance? I think it is a great idea. Washington would salute it with enormous joy right? :mrgreen:
If we had a decades old agreement with Mexico explicitly saying that we would not violate their sovereignty, an agreement that was backed up by Russia, China, and the UK, and as part of that agreement, Mexico gave us all their nuclear weapons… and we then occupied, I don’t know, Baja California, why WOULDN’T Mexico sign a mutual defense treaty with the Russians or the Chinese?
If Russia and China could arrange a coup in Mexico City with a few thousands of payed mercenaries, and that that coup brings a new government which would leave NAFTA and enter SCO and Russian-Chinese military alliance, U think USA would just watch it?
They are raping Ukraine for not entering EU-NATO, what would they do to Mexico if they would even think about joining the Eurasian alliance?
Why is USA so bothered with Castro and Chavez, and the Left in Latin America?
They think it is their yard. And Ukraine is to Russia much more than Mexico to States is.
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Peters, you are a bad-ass, I love it. Taking on the whole world at once, and making a diff! It’s great that people still care on that level these days. But it’s Ukranians that made this mess. They should clean it up. Unless you believe in NANNY states!
Think about the billions USA would have to pour into the Ukraine to “stabilize” it’s corrupt regime… USA is better off pouring that in detroit. Equally corrupt and hopeless.
Government starts with self government. If people are irresponsible with themselves, their families, or the trust of their countrymen, the only way for people to learn is to reap what they sow.
In closing - I have messages for each side.
For those who want a call to action in Ukraine, I would use the Danzig Corridor / Hitler example used as an excuse for the invasion of Poland. This Ukraine excursion is almost the same thing.
For those who don’t want action in Ukraine, stick to your guns. It’s high time the world starts to let people determine their own future.
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@peters
if U have some arguments put it.
If not stay away from insults and some 13-year old boy naming.
It is not a shame that U do not know that Libya and Syria are a ruin. Iraq too. It is never late to see what happened and happens down there.
And starting USA, which has problems of its own. But U can put ur head in the sand if it is ur choice. U have any right. Just ignore the facts and the truth. :wink:
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@rjpeters70:
Where did the United States publicly announce that NATO would not expand east of Germany?
“What the US secretary of state said on Feb. 9, 1990 in the magnificent St. Catherine’s Hall at the Kremlin is beyond dispute. There would be, in Baker’s words, “no extension of NATO’s jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east,” provided the Soviets agreed to the NATO membership of a unified Germany.”
Spiegel online inernational.I leave it to you make a search regarding nazi in Kiev.
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@rjpeters70:
Where did the United States publicly announce that NATO would not expand east of Germany?
“What the US secretary of state said on Feb. 9, 1990 in the magnificent St. Catherine’s Hall at the Kremlin is beyond dispute. There would be, in Baker’s words, “no extension of NATO’s jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east,” provided the Soviets agreed to the NATO membership of a unified Germany.”
Spiegel online inernational.I leave it to you make a search regarding nazi in Kiev.
Yes @Me
USA unilaterally withdrew it`s promise not to spread NATO to Baltic (ex Soviet states).
Then it unilaterally withdrew from the program of reducing nuclear weapons. It was in 2002.
Then it decided to put the famous shield in Poland and Czech Republic. This was a plan which had nothing to do with Iran or North Korea but a part of the wider plan, a strategy called Full Spectrum Dominance which sees Russia as the only power capable of military rivaling the USA. That`s the way State Department (especially when being held by the republicans) is constantly pushing and pushing with encircling Russia with USA military bases and outposts. This famous shield is an anti-balistic missile weapon that can shoot down various rockets and has a rocket system which can also carry some deadly things as well. It is a defensive weapon but with offensive capabilities as well. The Russians were furious when all this went on, and I do not see why do France and Germany dance as USA is playing.
We in Europe are in a constant risk of raising tensions with Russia just because one power from the other side of the world is playing it`s game here. We in Europe suck. EU sucks. We do not have a foreign policy of our own. In diplomatic questions we are more or less a satellite of Washington even in situations where we go against our own interests. That is sad :cry:
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@rjpeters70:
@peters
if U have some arguments put it.
If not stay away from insults and some 13-year old boy naming.
It is not a shame that U do not know that Libya and Syria are a ruin. Iraq too. It is never late to see what happened and happens down there.
And starting USA, which has problems of its own. But U can put ur head in the sand if it is ur choice. U have any right. Just ignore the facts and the truth. :wink:
Why can’t I offer both insults and arguments? I’m pretty sure I’ve been doing both.
You are the one who keeps acting as an apologist, and every time I bring up the fact that Russia is blatantly abrogating it’s negative security guarantee, you simply ignore it and talk about the United States (which has been pretty restrained this entire time with Ukraine).
I offer arguments without insulting.
Yeah, Russian reaction is not great, but the point is that USA is the last country that can give moral lectures about that. Did they respected Iraqi territorial integrity? Does USA respect Pakistan and it`s borders?
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