A victory for the terrorists

[Rune Blade]

Well, we can agree or disagree on this issue.  I think it is necessary, you all might not.  I don’t see why we should allow these muslim killers to use the freedoms we enjoy to kill thousands of Americans again.  If  9/11 wasn’t a wake up call, I don’t know what is.  Putting up the Clinton wall again between agencies is not the answer.  Secure the border, Secure our country.

By the way, glad to hear from you Jennifer.  Hope things are going well.

Rune Blade

[Guest]

@Rune:

Secure the border, Secure our country.

On THAT Rune I agree with you.  In point of fact, if we had secure borders, most of the Patriot Act provisions would be pointless and silly.

[cystic crypt]

@Jennifer:

It’s better to just secretly send in Marine Force Recon or Army Airborne/Rangers and kill our target without notifying the public until afterwards.  Better - not ethical, morale or legal per-say, but better for success rate and domestic tranquility.

consider that you have the occassional target that is innocent and an American citizen.

[Rune Blade]

consider that you have the occassional target that is innocent and an American citizen.

Possible, but not as likely as catching a bad guy.

Rune Blade

[Guest]

Its pretty easy to tell the difference between your average American citizen and terrorist. I think the turbans really give them away.

[Guest]

Tim McVey wore a turban?

[Rune Blade]

Wasn’t Tim McVeigh in contact with Iraqi intelligence agents before Oklahoma City?

Rune Blade

[Guest]

@Rune:

Wasn’t Tim McVeigh in contact with Iraqi intelligence agents before Oklahoma City?

Isn’t it the Czechs that have that evidence?  Maybe it was the Cripps.  Something with a ‘c’ in it anyway.

[Guest]

Just a bit more on Padilla…

He had been being held under the “Enemy Combatant” executive order issued by Bush.  I found a copy of the order looking up something else.  It clearly excludes Padilla, since he is a citizen.

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/mo-111301.htm

No wonder the Federal Appeals court refused to allow the Justice Department to dismiss charges on this case and is forcing SCOTUS to handle this imprisonment of a US citizen in a military prison (Charleston, SC Naval Brig) without charges for 3+ years.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051222/ap_on_go_co/enemy_combatant_padilla;_ylt=Ammm31ptaGrVhoMeaTGzgL5p24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[Jennifer]

Tim McVey was a white supremacist, not a terrorist.  Well, not at first.  However, he was still a United States Citizen.  These wire taps are being done against Aliens (that is non-United States citizens.)  These in-duh-viduals don’t have the Bill of Rights protecting them from the government like we do.  It’s what makes being a United States citizen better then being a citizen elsewhere (at least from our prospective - it’s likewise true in many nations in reverse.)  After all, I would have absolutely no expectation of a speedy trial by a jury of my peers if I blew up Toronto, nor do I have any expectation that my international phone calls OVER THE AIR WAVES (these taps are only air wave traps, not physical touching of the propreitary wires - anyone with rudimentary hacking skills and $15.00 can get the gear needed to do this from Radio Shack) are private.

Just my opinion.

[Guest]

Jen, 2 things:

#1, if you are on US soil, then you are protected by the US Constitution.  Read the case law in this area.
#2, we don;t KNOW if they were citizens or aliens, only that the NSA tapped phone calls that included people on US soil, both inbound and outbound calls.

That means FISA applies, but was ignored.

[Imperious Leader]

There should be a law about “talking about commiting a crime” so the government can monitor all communication and stop crimes before they are commited. Just like those police cars hide behind a sign to watch you speed past, or those traffic light cameras taking a picture of you w/o your knowledge. They should likewise place signs saying “the goverment is listening so dont be an idiot” and if you still talk about blowing up a building then some old old man like Redd Foxx should interject " You big dummy…stop talking about that or im gonna move Julio in with his goats right next door"

[Janus1]

There should be a law about “talking about commiting a crime” so the government can monitor all communication and stop crimes before they are commited. Just like those police cars hide behind a sign to watch you speed past, or those traffic light cameras taking a picture of you w/o your knowledge. They should likewise place signs saying “the goverment is listening so dont be an idiot” and if you still talk about blowing up a building then some old old man like Redd Foxx should interject " You big dummy…stop talking about that or im gonna move Julio in with his goats right next door"

not really the same at all. the examples you give monitor crimes taking place. not people talking about committing a crime. that completely undermines free speech. there are laws in place prohibiting crimes before they take place, its called conspiracy. talking about blowing up a building, and taking serious steps towards blowing it up (making the explosives, etc.) is conspiracy, and is an arrestable offense.

[Guest]

Yes please, no thought police.