In our global game Russia starts with 37 inf and Germany has 18 not counting minors. Germany has to Influence and/or annex the minor countrys too. Russia has inf at 2icp’s and tanks at 4 icp’s. Germany has inf at 3 icp’s and tanks at 5 icp’s. Game does have less money involved too. Just some suggestions.
Do you have a link to your game SS?
Russian starts with:
16 infantry. (10 more out east, between 4 and 9 turns away)
2 mec
5 art
2 arm
4 fgt
1 tac
15 ipcsGermany with its axis minors…
44 infantry
7 mech
6 art
5 arm
6 fgt
4 tac
2 bomber
52 IPCs to start and a “double impulse” turn.
The Soviet army was much larger than the German army. Of course, it was much weaker for about 5 months until they learned how to fight against Blitzkrieg. They didn’t completely learn until probably Kursk.
This is what i feel should be a historical setup:
1941 Starting setup:
Germany:
Army Group North: East Prussia: 12 infantry, 4 Artillery,3 Armor, 3 Mechanized
Plus: 1st Air fleet : 3 Fighters, 2 Fighter-Bombers, 1 Bomber
Army Group Center: Warsaw: 20 Infantry, 7 Artillery, 9 Armor, 7 Mechanized
Plus: 2nd Air fleet: 3 Fighters, 2 Fighter-Bombers, 1 Bomber
Army Group South: Place the following units as you wish in Lublin, Moldavia and Bucharest: 20 Infantry, 6 Artillery,5 Armor, 3 Mechanized, Plus: 3rd Air fleet in Moldavia: 3 Fighters, 2 Fighter-Bombers, 1 Bomber
Finnish Army in Finland: 6 Infantry, 2 Artillery, 1 Armor, 2 fighters
52 infantry plus 6 in Finland
One AA gun in every territory with a factory.
Soviet Union:
Baltic Front @ Leningrad: 8 Infantry,1 Artillery,1 Armor, plus supporting air element: of 2 Fighters also in Leningrad.
Western Front @ Lithuania: 14 Infantry, 3 artillery, 2 Armor, 2 Mechanized and Vilnus: 12 Infantry 4 Artillery, 6 Armor, 7 Mechanized, plus supporting air element in Minsk: 2 Fighters, 2 Fighter-Bombers, 1 Bomber
Kiev Front: Place the following units as you wish in Brest and Lwow: 13 Infantry, 4 Artillery 6 Armor, 6 Mechanized, plus supporting air element in Kiev: 2 Fighters, 2 Fighter-Bombers, 1 Bomber
Odessa Front: Bessarabia: 8 Infantry, 3 Artillery, 3 Armor, 3 Mechanized, plus supporting air element: 2 Fighters, 2 Fighter-Bombers, 1 Bomber
Stavka Reserve @:
Moscow: 6 Infantry, 1 fighter, 1 Fighter-Bomber
Kharkov: 2 Infantry
Smolensk: 2 Infantry
53 infantry total. Note Germany has alot more tanks than the listed setup.
I would add more German tanks, more Soviet Mech, and more Soviet infantry to balance based on what Garg posted. That would make it more Historical anyway. And 5$ tanks makes no sense. Make Soviet tanks $5 and German 6$. The Soviets should have a reserve income that cant be spent until the Germans get within striking distance of Moscow. That should also balance out.
2 IPC soviet infantry would not be a poor change. I’d prefer to keep the five IPC German armour. An IC in Stalingrad would be helpful as well.
Oh and,
In the games the group I play with, by the time turn ten rolls around things are jusT getting good. Id like to see a fee more turns for a victory.
No
German tanks should cost $6
Here is why tanks can’t be priced at $5 with weak $4 artillery and $4 mechs (hitting at 3 in D12 versus 2 in D6 like in Global 1940):
With $40 Germany can get 8 tanks, with 48 punch on attack, and 48 on defense with 8 hits
With $40 Germany can get 5 art and 5 mechs, with 30 punch on attack, and 40 on defense with 10 hits
Germany would really be crazy to build anything but tanks
Things change a lot if tanks cost $6:
With $48 Germany can get 8 tanks with 48 punch on attack, and 48 on defense with 8 hits
With $48 Germany can get 6 art and 6 mech with 36 punch on attack, and 48 on defense with 12 hits
A smart $48 build might be 4 tanks, 3 art, 3 mech (42 punch attacking, 48 on defense with 10 hits)
Russian mechs should cost $4 and Russian artillery should hit at 4 (inf or mech paired with art still hit at 3)
Russia should be able to do some counterattacking and have enough mobility to move units where they are needed. At $5, Russian mechs are too expensive to be an efficient way to move themselves and artillery units where they are needed (perhaps to attack @3 but more likely to defend @4). Second, Russian artillery attacking @3 is pretty puny given the tank armies they may be counterattacking and considering the historical effectiveness of Russian artillery (i.e. katyusha rockets). Making mechs $4 and increasing their hit power of art to 4 gives you this:
A purely defensive $48 build would be 16 inf @ $3 (32 punch attacking, 64 on defense with 16 hits)
An offensive $48 build without mobility might be 8 inf, 6 art (46 punch attacking, 56 on defense with 14 hits)
A $48 build for mobility might be 6 art and 6 mech (42 punch attacking, 48 on defense with 12 hits)
A very offensive $48 for mobility build might be 4 tanks @ $6, 3 art, 3 mech (45 punch attacking, 48 on defense with 10 hits)
Those tweaks give Germany motivation to build a more realistic force with combined arms, and give Russia some mobility and chance to fight back. If that’s not enough to even things up, maybe try adding fortresses in Stalingrad and Moscow, and minor ICs in Stalingrad and Leningrad.
The problem I see with going to 6 IPC german tanks is that the argument largely relies on the battle for Russia. True, Germany can build a relatively large tank army and smash the Soviets early on, but as the allies grow in strength she won’t just be facing Russians. Germany is just not as strong as she initially appears and that becomes more apparent as the game wears on.
The allies can bottle her up and soon enough have forces in the USSR to support the Russians. I like the idea about more ICs for the Soviets and cheaper infantry, this would certainly help with balance early on (perhaps a discount on fortifications too), but germany just may need those 5 IPC tanks to fight off the combined strength of the allies. There’ s a reason they developers gave Germany the discount and it may have to do with giving her a fighting chance in the long game.
Perhaps the upcoming expansions will provide a dynamic that sorts some things out as well. We may even see new pieces (such as anti tank guns) which could be used to blunt the German tank push.
Rather than focusing on “expansions” it would be preferrable if they hashed out the basics first.
Good post on the tanks Variance.
Good point re expansions vis a vis basics, but it still begs the question why did they give germany 5 IPC armour? Variance makes great points regarding the numbers and you’ve made good ones regarding the extras for the Soviets (2 IPC infantry, new ICs). Overall though, I am not too sure about scraping the 5 IPC German tanks due to the reasons given above. Heck, I’d even go for cheaper/better Soviet artillery as suggested.
Have you tried a game using the changes you suggest? It’d be interesting to see the effect.
Maybe try 3 major, 2 minor factorys and inf at 2 icps for Russia. It might offset the lower inf total for Russia at start of game. Just gonna have to play test it. I`m working on getting this game setup right now too.
Right on SS,
Please tell us how it goes.
Based on my past experiences inf @ 2 IPC’s has been game breaking the other way…
Germany with its 5 dollar tanks might save 10 to 15 IPC’s in a turn. Russia with $2 infantry, will save $25+ a turn, and have hits to spare.
So I have another alternate proposal.
-Give Russia + 1 minor IC in Stalingrad
-Lose the Russian Berlin NA (As it’s never used).
-New NA - “For the Motherland!” Russia gets +1 infantry during the place units phase each turn at any industrial complex it holds in the following territories (Moscow, Novisibirks, Karelia, Stalingrad), so long as it has held the territory from the beginning of it’s turn. This advantage does not count against maximum production.
This inspires the Axis to go hard and fast for the industrial complex’s, or face that many more infantry a turn. It’s an incentive for the axis to start early, without breaking the game.
If that’s not enough, the NO can be reworded so that Russia gets +1 inf per complex it holds. They may gamble and place extra factories early, as an investment, but may have to pay the price for it down the road.
Only 1 problem remaining.
Germany is still only going to build tanks, because dollar for dollar, Germany gets so much more out of thier tanks. My proposed solution? Bump tanks back to 6, and for each Major factory Germany controls from the start of it’s turn - it receives +1 armor at that location during the place units phase.
Seems like a K.I.S.S. solution to me.
Thoughts?
If you were to give Germany and extra mech at each major instead of an extra tank, then maybe they would build some artillery to go with them to the front and defend the tanks?
What if you try putting a limit on tanks for Germany. Keep it $5 but force them to buy art or mech like Var said. I know its startin to not be K.I.S.S.
ok,
I’ll bite.
Just got a call; a game is on for this weekend. We’re going to try this:
USSR (as per Gargie): 1 infantry per turn at each IC owned since beginning of her turn and a minor IC with AA in Stalingrad.
Germany (as per SS + Variance): 1 mech per turn at each major IC owned since beginning of her turn. She keepers her 5 ipc armour.
We’ll see how it goes.
If you are giving Germany 2x mech. Make sure Russia gets inf for any complexes it builds. Just to keep things even.
Roger that Gargie.
So I have another alternate proposal.
-Give Russia + 1 minor IC in Stalingrad
-Lose the Russian Berlin NA (As it’s never used).
-New NA - “For the Motherland!” Russia gets +1 infantry during the place units phase each turn at any industrial complex it holds in the following territories (Moscow, Novisibirks, Karelia, Stalingrad), so long as it has held the territory from the beginning of it’s turn. This advantage does not count against maximum production.This inspires the Axis to go hard and fast for the industrial complex’s, or face that many more infantry a turn. It’s an incentive for the axis to start early, without breaking the game.
If that’s not enough, the NO can be reworded so that Russia gets +1 inf per complex it holds. They may gamble and place extra factories early, as an investment, but may have to pay the price for it down the road.
I’m going to weigh in on this with a personal “unofficial” response. I agree there could be some improvements made to the Eastern Front. Whether it’s setup changes, rules changes, or strategy changes (or a combo) I do not know yet.
First, I agree with Garg that 2 IPC infantry will break the game too far in Russia’s favor. We can’t go there. But, I’m not willing to throw out Germany’s 5 IPC tanks yet.
I see the above solution as the most sensible to try out. Thanks go out to those guys already trying it. Please let us know what happens!
I don’t like rules that limit production of common units like tanks, so I’m against that. Special units is one thing, but limiting tank buys beyond income and factory limits goes against the feel of the game IMO.
Any “official answer” on a game changer like this will have to be tested and discussed by all 4 game designers before anything is written in stone. But I encourage trying the above as Garg suggested, then telling everyone what happened. Let’s start there.
We will play test the Russian advantage with free inf at Karelia, Stalingrad, Moscow, and Novisibirsk on Feb 22nd. +1 Stalingrad IC at setup.
-No free mech for Germany.
-No extra infantry for new complexes the Russian’s build.
IMO - This will be the best way to square things up. The axis will feel the heat to get pressure on those factories early.
