Yamamoto vs Duke of York

[ABWorsham4]

The heaviest of the Battleships versus the best from the Royal Navy! You decide who wins this contest.

[Imperious Leader]

Not clear here. First you say Yamamoto then Yamoto on the vote option.

You mean Yamato? Then Yamato wins

[poloplayer15]

as much as i want the Duke of York to win, Its simply outclassed in every category by the Yamato except one, Looks. IMO, the Yamato is one ugly ship

[ABWorsham4]

@Imperious:

Not clear here. First you say Yamamoto then Yamoto on the vote option.

You mean Yamato? Then Yamato wins

Yeah, I caught that after I posted. I edited the poll question, however I was unable to edit the subject title.

[jim010]

Let’s assume a chance encounter in the China sea between the two in 1942 when Churchill wanted British raiders operating the way the Germans had done in the Atlantic.  This is the only possible way I see an encounter between the two happening without other ships and carriers taking part (at least on the British side).  We’ll assume that Japanese carriers are engaged elsewhere and Yamato and other ships are hunting for the British raiders.  Low cloud ceiling, so planes can’t participate.  Prince of Wales was destined for this type of operation, so this match-up MIGHT have happened.  We’ll substitute DoY with PoW.  As the ships are identical, shouldn’t be an issue.  And PoW is most likely to have made this encounter, had she survived.

1. radar
   Yamato has inferior radar compared to Prince of Wales.  PoW will see Yamato before the Japanese are aware of the British, allowing British to open fire sooner.  I don’t even think that the Japanese had equipped Yamato with radar in 1942, did they?

Advantage Prince of Wales

2. Crew
   Experienced crew of PoW after having seen action against the Bismarck in the Atlantic.  Crew of Yamato having just been finished working up and familiarizing themselves with their ship.  Both are highly motivated crews.

Advantage PoW

3. Damage Control
   Not sure about the Japanese, but I assume that they are quite efficient and familiar with their ship.  PoW has excellent damage control from what I have read of these ships.  Especially after having done it during the action with Bismarck.  Yamato will have been well trained, but there will not be any experiance.  This assumes that Yamato needs to worry about damage from DoY …

Advantage Prince of Wales

4. Speed
   Both ships have similar speeds with PoW edging out the Yamato by about 1 knot.  This would be crucial to PoWsurvival.

5. Everthing Else
   Armor, primary and secondary guns … PoW just doesn’t have the same punch Yamato has, nor can she take the same punishment.  PoW is vulnerable to getting holes punched whether it is from flat angle shots or plunging fire.  Yamato of course also has the same worries, but with thicker armor to protect against those smaller shells, I’d rather be on Yamato (below deck, of course)

Conclusion:
Even with PoW shooting first, unless it gets that lucky first couple of hits and takes out the bridge or something.  And that is likely, too, even at extreme ranges.  PoW would have to stay out and fire from extreme ranges, but with its 1 knot speed advantage, that is not where I’d want to pin my hopes.  And if the encounter happened where the ranges were shorter where radar wouldn’t be an advantage, well, just abandon the PoW and let it sink in peace.

PoW’s best hope is that the encounter (assuming no planes or other protective screens) happened in poor visibility at night in open ocean.  At this point in time, the Japanese still relied on their crew’s night training, which just isn’t a substitute to radar.  Get your lucky shots in and leave once the Yamato turned towards you.

[Witt]

Enjoyed that Jim, thank you.
Have not had the time to research both ships(navy not my thing), so I truly appreciate your work.

[ABWorsham4]

@jim010:

Let’s assume a chance encounter in the China sea between the two in 1942 when Churchill wanted British raiders operating the way the Germans had done in the Atlantic.  This is the only possible way I see an encounter between the two happening without other ships and carriers taking part (at least on the British side).  We’ll assume that Japanese carriers are engaged elsewhere and Yamato and other ships are hunting for the British raiders.  Low cloud ceiling, so planes can’t participate.  Prince of Wales was destined for this type of operation, so this match-up MIGHT have happened.  We’ll substitute DoY with PoW.  As the ships are identical, shouldn’t be an issue.  And PoW is most likely to have made this encounter, had she survived.

1. radar
   Yamato has inferior radar compared to Prince of Wales.  PoW will see Yamato before the Japanese are aware of the British, allowing British to open fire sooner.  I don’t even think that the Japanese had equipped Yamato with radar in 1942, did they?

Advantage Prince of Wales

2. Crew
   Experienced crew of PoW after having seen action against the Bismarck in the Atlantic.  Crew of Yamato having just been finished working up and familiarizing themselves with their ship.  Both are highly motivated crews.

Advantage PoW

3. Damage Control
   Not sure about the Japanese, but I assume that they are quite efficient and familiar with their ship.  PoW has excellent damage control from what I have read of these ships.  Especially after having done it during the action with Bismarck.  Yamato will have been well trained, but there will not be any experiance.  This assumes that Yamato needs to worry about damage from DoY …

Advantage Prince of Wales

4. Speed
   Both ships have similar speeds with PoW edging out the Yamato by about 1 knot.  This would be crucial to PoWsurvival.

5. Everthing Else
   Armor, primary and secondary guns … PoW just doesn’t have the same punch Yamato has, nor can she take the same punishment.  PoW is vulnerable to getting holes punched whether it is from flat angle shots or plunging fire.  Yamato of course also has the same worries, but with thicker armor to protect against those smaller shells, I’d rather be on Yamato (below deck, of course)

Conclusion:
Even with PoW shooting first, unless it gets that lucky first couple of hits and takes out the bridge or something.  And that is likely, too, even at extreme ranges.  PoW would have to stay out and fire from extreme ranges, but with its 1 knot speed advantage, that is not where I’d want to pin my hopes.  And if the encounter happened where the ranges were shorter where radar wouldn’t be an advantage, well, just abandon the PoW and let it sink in peace.

PoW’s best hope is that the encounter (assuming no planes or other protective screens) happened in poor visibility at night in open ocean.  At this point in time, the Japanese still relied on their crew’s night training, which just isn’t a substitute to radar.  Get your lucky shots in and leave once the Yamato turned towards you.

Well said.

[ABWorsham4]

I thought of adding an additional battleship for the British, perhaps a WWI vet like Warspite.

[CWO Marc]

@jim010:

Let’s assume a chance encounter in the China sea between the two in 1942 when Churchill wanted British raiders operating the way the Germans had done in the Atlantic.  This is the only possible way I see an encounter between the two happening without other ships and carriers taking part (at least on the British side).  We’ll assume that Japanese carriers are engaged elsewhere and Yamato and other ships are hunting for the British raiders.  Low cloud ceiling, so planes can’t participate.  Prince of Wales was destined for this type of operation, so this match-up MIGHT have happened.  We’ll substitute DoY with PoW.  As the ships are identical, shouldn’t be an issue.  And PoW is most likely to have made this encounter, had she survived.

Interesting analysis, but there’s one other factor that needs to be considered: main gun range.  Yamato’s 18.1-inch guns probably out-ranged PoW’s 14-inchers; Garzke and Dulin’s books would give the exact figures, but I don’t have them on hand at this moment.  If so, Yamato would be able to open fire on PoW long before PoW could do likewise to Yamato.  Or to put it another way, any situation in which PoW is in range to hit Yamato (even at extreme range) would automatically be a situation in which PoW would be well within Yamato’s range.

On the issue of who-spots-whom-first, Japanese inferiority in radar might well be compensated by the IJN’s excellent optical rangefinders, particularly in view of the fact that Yamato’s greater size would place her optical fire-control stations (and perhaps her radars too) at a greater height than those of PoW – so Yamato might actually spot PoW first, since the horizon is further away as you observe it from higher up.  PoW did have a slight edge in speed, but in this situation the main advantage this would confer to PoW would be the ability to get away from a situation in which she was confronted with an opponent way above her weight class.  This was basically the same principle behind the Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe: with a few exceptions (these being the three British battlecruisers they might face), they were more powerful than anything faster and faster than anything more powerful…the latter point meaning that, if they encountered a fully-fledged battleship, they were supposed to run away from it.

[jim010]

I absolutely agree with you here.  Yamato does have better range with her guns.  But I believe that PoW is better able to place her shots on target at these extreme ranges than Yamato.  Regardless, surprise is crucial for PoW.  Which is why I think the engagement would HAVE to happen at night when radar would help.

@CWO:

@jim010:

Let’s assume a chance encounter in the China sea between the two in 1942 when Churchill wanted British raiders operating the way the Germans had done in the Atlantic. � This is the only possible way I see an encounter between the two happening without other ships and carriers taking part (at least on the British side). � We’ll assume that Japanese carriers are engaged elsewhere and Yamato and other ships are hunting for the British raiders. � Low cloud ceiling, so planes can’t participate. � Prince of Wales was destined for this type of operation, so this match-up MIGHT have happened. � We’ll substitute DoY with PoW. � As the ships are identical, shouldn’t be an issue. � And PoW is most likely to have made this encounter, had she survived.

Interesting analysis, but there’s one other factor that needs to be considered: main gun range.  Yamato’s 18.1-inch guns probably out-ranged PoW’s 14-inchers; Garzke and Dulin’s books would give the exact figures, but I don’t have them on hand at this moment.  If so, Yamato would be able to open fire on PoW long before PoW could do likewise to Yamato.  Or to put it another way, any situation in which PoW is in range to hit Yamato (even at extreme range) would automatically be a situation in which PoW would be well within Yamato’s range.

On the issue of who-spots-whom-first, Japanese inferiority in radar might well be compensated by the IJN’s excellent optical rangefinders, particularly in view of the fact that Yamato’s greater size would place her optical fire-control stations (and perhaps her radars too) at a greater height than those of PoW – so Yamato might actually spot PoW first, since the horizon is further away as you observe it from higher up.  PoW did have a slight edge in speed, but in this situation the main advantage this would confer to PoW would be the ability to get away from a situation in which she was confronted with an opponent way above her weight class.  This was basically the same principle behind the Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe: with a few exceptions (these being the three British battlecruisers they might face), they were more powerful than anything faster and faster than anything more powerful…the latter point meaning that, if they encountered a fully-fledged battleship, they were supposed to run away from it.