@marine36:
It is true that the patriot act can be horribly abused, but has this occured yet? My liberties have not been taken from me, and Im confident that the media would report something so dramatic. As far as I can tell, it has done no harm, and though i dont like the idea of giving more power to the feds, I think it is an effective means of helping to stop the terrorist threat.
Two things Marine…
#1 Is your name Jose Pedila by chance? If so, you just spent 3 years in a naval brig without having been charged with anything and without being allowed access to a lawyer. You may not be Jose Pedila, but you do have somethign in common with him, you both are American Citizens.
2# We HAVE seen your argument before…
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
You know, I don’t have AIDS, or HIV, so I thought maybe we shouldn’t worry about it. In fact, strip any funding for it. It’s not that serious, and isn’t an epidemic yet, so hey, why bother?
Ok, slightly off-topic, but you’ve got to think of more than yourself. I’m not saying you aren’t important, or that you shouldn’t cover your own butt (that’s why I think the Patriot Act is literal BS) - no one else is obligated but you.
So, if it hasn’t bothered you when it was implemented, it won’t bother you when it’s shot down…American citizens aren’t the enemy. We already have a paranoid state, we don’t need them tweaking, too.
Sorry RB, I’ll get to your response in a few hours. Just kind of busy right now :) I haven’t forgot you.
Switch, Ive never heard of Jose Pedila. What is the source for your info? Ive never heard him mentioned before, pretty strange considering the media will do anything to attack Bush.
If what you say is true, it proves my point. It is an isolated incident, not something that is happening widespread.
I believe you are overeacting.
He spelled it wrong. Jose Padilla.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/18/national/nationalspecial3/18padilla.html
Held without charge for years.
TY Yanny for the correction of my spelling.
As for source of news…
ALL of them.
Hell we didn;t treat the Rosenburgs THAT badly.
@ncscswitch:
TY Yanny for the correction of my spelling.
As for source of news…
ALL of them.Hell we didn;t treat the Rosenburgs THAT badly.
poor Ethel . . . .
I’m going to have to agree with Yanny on this one, Rune. The Patriot Act, in and of itself, was a victory for the terrorist organizations. Terrorists despise American freedom, especially since we try and free the people they keep domesticated through the use of terror in their own countries. The Patriot Act just limited American freedoms and not terrorists. That’s the problem with laws in general, you only limit those who follow the laws!
For instance, if you made it 100% illegal to own firearms, no law abiding citizen would have a gun. However, many of your criminals would still have guns because they don’t care how many laws they break.
Or
Making it illegal to smoke. Non-smokers would follow the law, but many smokers would break the law. (I speak from first hand experience here. Ft. Benning is a Smoke Free Base and there’s still cigarette butts all over the place out there.)
It’s better to just secretly send in Marine Force Recon or Army Airborne/Rangers and kill our target without notifying the public until afterwards. Better - not ethical, morale or legal per-say, but better for success rate and domestic tranquility.
Well, we can agree or disagree on this issue. I think it is necessary, you all might not. I don’t see why we should allow these muslim killers to use the freedoms we enjoy to kill thousands of Americans again. If 9/11 wasn’t a wake up call, I don’t know what is. Putting up the Clinton wall again between agencies is not the answer. Secure the border, Secure our country.
By the way, glad to hear from you Jennifer. Hope things are going well.
Rune Blade
@Rune:
Secure the border, Secure our country.
On THAT Rune I agree with you. In point of fact, if we had secure borders, most of the Patriot Act provisions would be pointless and silly.
It’s better to just secretly send in Marine Force Recon or Army Airborne/Rangers and kill our target without notifying the public until afterwards. Better - not ethical, morale or legal per-say, but better for success rate and domestic tranquility.
consider that you have the occassional target that is innocent and an American citizen.
consider that you have the occassional target that is innocent and an American citizen.
Possible, but not as likely as catching a bad guy.
Rune Blade
Its pretty easy to tell the difference between your average American citizen and terrorist. I think the turbans really give them away.
Tim McVey wore a turban?
Wasn’t Tim McVeigh in contact with Iraqi intelligence agents before Oklahoma City?
Rune Blade
@Rune:
Wasn’t Tim McVeigh in contact with Iraqi intelligence agents before Oklahoma City?
Isn’t it the Czechs that have that evidence? Maybe it was the Cripps. Something with a ‘c’ in it anyway.
Just a bit more on Padilla…
He had been being held under the “Enemy Combatant” executive order issued by Bush. I found a copy of the order looking up something else. It clearly excludes Padilla, since he is a citizen.
http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/mo-111301.htm
No wonder the Federal Appeals court refused to allow the Justice Department to dismiss charges on this case and is forcing SCOTUS to handle this imprisonment of a US citizen in a military prison (Charleston, SC Naval Brig) without charges for 3+ years.
Tim McVey was a white supremacist, not a terrorist. Well, not at first. However, he was still a United States Citizen. These wire taps are being done against Aliens (that is non-United States citizens.) These in-duh-viduals don’t have the Bill of Rights protecting them from the government like we do. It’s what makes being a United States citizen better then being a citizen elsewhere (at least from our prospective - it’s likewise true in many nations in reverse.) After all, I would have absolutely no expectation of a speedy trial by a jury of my peers if I blew up Toronto, nor do I have any expectation that my international phone calls OVER THE AIR WAVES (these taps are only air wave traps, not physical touching of the propreitary wires - anyone with rudimentary hacking skills and $15.00 can get the gear needed to do this from Radio Shack) are private.
Just my opinion.
Jen, 2 things:
#1, if you are on US soil, then you are protected by the US Constitution. Read the case law in this area.
#2, we don;t KNOW if they were citizens or aliens, only that the NSA tapped phone calls that included people on US soil, both inbound and outbound calls.
That means FISA applies, but was ignored.
There should be a law about “talking about commiting a crime” so the government can monitor all communication and stop crimes before they are commited. Just like those police cars hide behind a sign to watch you speed past, or those traffic light cameras taking a picture of you w/o your knowledge. They should likewise place signs saying “the goverment is listening so dont be an idiot” and if you still talk about blowing up a building then some old old man like Redd Foxx should interject " You big dummy…stop talking about that or im gonna move Julio in with his goats right next door"
