A victory for the terrorists

[stuka pilot]

@Rune:

It is a sad day in America.  The Patriot Act’s 16 most important provisions have been voted down by the US Senate.  The terrorsts have been handed their first victory by gutless American politicians.  It can be truly said that the terrorists cannot defeat us on the battlefield.  They must win their battles against us with their left-wing supporters in the Democratic Party and the weak-kneed politicians on the Republican side.  I am ashamed of each and every one of them that are against this important piece of legislation that has kept America safe from the evil of terrorism these past 4 years.  Without these provisions, we are now going to be going back to the Clinton era where information sharing was not allowed and led to 9/11.  God help us now in our time of need.  We are in desparate need of it.  The next attack is coming and those Senators will be to blame.

Rune Blade

Well, some things haven’t change since I was here last.

Tell me, I forgot who has control of both House and Senate? Yeah, your right…. I got more freedom and you are going to get an airliner flown into your house. Sweet deal for me.

Tough luck RB… I guess you’ll have to move to Paraguay.
So long.

[Zooey72]

@Yanny:

Terrorists do not have the physical ability to kill that many people. They do not have the the means to provide a serious actual threat to Americans in America. It’s all psychological.

Want to win a victory over the terrorists? Stop caring. On 9/12, send the troops to Afganistan, capture Osama Bin Ladin, and don’t get all worked up about it.

Those who have committed no crimes had nothing to fear from Joseph Stalin right? The Gestapo didn’t concern those who were good, law abiding German citizens.

All those Democratic Senators were in shock like 99% of the rest of us. Not only that, but they intentionally sunsetted the bill. It’s time for the bill to sunset. It will be repassed, but there will be judicial and congressional oversight (In the past, a half dozen members of each house were given the intelligence but weren’t allowed to speak about it), and it will indeed sunset again. There are good things in the Patriot Act, and there are also some bad things.

Terrorism is one big psychological frenzy. It was really scary watching on 9/11, trust me I was scared too. There is a hill in my town where I was able to see the towers burning. But now it’s time to be rational again.

Guess who that one Senator who voted against the bill was? If I had to retrieve a guess from you, I’d be you would respond to me Ted Kennedy, or John Kerry, or another super-liberal. Russ Feingold, a moderate and bi-partisan, was the only one to oppose the act.

Once Rome lost it’s democracy, it never returned.

Rome didn’t get back it’s Democracy once it lost it.

The fact you posted this Yanny shows you are wrong.  You compared our government to the Nazis and Stalin’s Russia.  If we were anywhere near that do you think someone would not be knocking on your door right now with a free ticket to the gulag (sp?) or concentration camp?  Do you think Hitler or Stalin would have put up with a “loud mouth” like you?  Evil GWB could of had you killed by posting this if the extreme you are talking about were true, but you weren’t because this is AMERICA.

You lose credibility when you compare us to states like that.  As much as you want to hype it, the PA is not the Nuremberg laws… sorry.

[Guest]

@Zooey72:

If we were anywhere near that do you think someone would not be knocking on your door right now with a free ticket to the gulag (sp?) or concentration camp?

Oh, you mean like Jose Pedila?  That American Citizen that was thrown in a “gulag” and not allowed to see anyone for 3 years.

Or how about all of those individuals, families, and businesses that had their assets seized unilaterally by the government using the dreadfully unconstitutional search and seizure laws of the War on Drugs and the War on Terrorism?

Or how about Kelo v. New London?  Or Alabaster Alabama?  Or any of a few thousand other places where local, state, and federal governments are taking people’s property to give to major campaign donors to build Walmarts and “Mixed Use Developments”?

If you deprive a man of his property unjustly and strip him of any power to refuse, you don;t have to throw him in a Gulag to control him.

[Yanny]

The fact you posted this Yanny shows you are wrong.  You compared our government to the Nazis and Stalin’s Russia.  If we were anywhere near that do you think someone would not be knocking on your door right now with a free ticket to the gulag (sp?) or concentration camp?  Do you think Hitler or Stalin would have put up with a “loud mouth” like you?  Evil GWB could of had you killed by posting this if the extreme you are talking about were true, but you weren’t because this is AMERICA.

You lose credibility when you compare us to states like that.  As much as you want to hype it, the PA is not the Nuremberg laws… sorry.

You know something? I couldn’t care less if I lose credibility. What is said needed to be said.

Hitler was democratically elected. Remember that. The German people freely gave up their power to him. Julius Caesar and Octavian Augustus were democratically given power.

Right now, this is America. But a long journey begins with a single step. I am in favor of limited, regulated, controlled government. You are in favor of eliminating judicial boundries and control. Who feels more “American?”

Akaka (D-HI), Nay
Alexander (R-TN), Yea
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Allen (R-VA), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Nay
Bayh (D-IN), Nay
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Nay
Bingaman (D-NM), Nay
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Nay
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burns (R-MT), Yea
Burr (R-NC), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Nay
Cantwell (D-WA), Nay
Carper (D-DE), Nay
Chafee (R-RI), Yea
Chambliss (R-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Nay
Coburn (R-OK), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Coleman (R-MN), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Nay
Cornyn (R-TX), Yea
Corzine (D-NJ), Nay
Craig (R-ID), Nay
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Dayton (D-MN), Nay
DeMint (R-SC), Yea
DeWine (R-OH), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Not Voting
Dole (R-NC), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Nay
Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Nay
Frist (R-TN), Nay
Graham (R-SC), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Nay
Harkin (D-IA), Nay
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Nay
Isakson (R-GA), Yea
Jeffords (I-VT), Nay
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Nay
Kerry (D-MA), Nay
Kohl (D-WI), Nay
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Nay
Lautenberg (D-NJ), Nay
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Nay
Lieberman (D-CT), Nay
Lincoln (D-AR), Nay
Lott (R-MS), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
Martinez (R-FL), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Nay
Murkowski (R-AK), Nay
Murray (D-WA), Nay
Nelson (D-FL), Nay
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Obama (D-IL), Nay
Pryor (D-AR), Nay
Reed (D-RI), Nay
Reid (D-NV), Nay
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Nay
Salazar (D-CO), Nay
Santorum (R-PA), Yea
Sarbanes (D-MD), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Nay
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Nay
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Sununu (R-NH), Nay
Talent (R-MO), Yea
Thomas (R-WY), Yea
Thune (R-SD), Yea
Vitter (R-LA), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Wyden (D-OR), Nay

Craig (R-ID), Nay
Dodd (D-CT), Not Voting
Frist (R-TN), Nay
Hagel (R-NE), Nay
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Nay
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Sununu (R-NH), Nay

[Yanny]

By the way, I’d like to point out…

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10454316/

[cystic crypt]

that’s funny stuff - if you don’t live in the US.  For a democracy and a supposedly great civilization, you people sure are paranoid between the NRA, the army, CIA, NSA, Secret Service, White House, Homeland Security, as well as those a$$ inspectors in the airports.  It’s a wonder anything gets done there.

[Imperious Leader]

Naw those problems allways come from the “blue state” people…  they allways have problems with government, because they really want more of it and at the same time want less control from it… They just wait for those damm checks to keep coming.

[Rune Blade]

How does adding congressional and judicial oversight to Patriot Act I powers, and including sunset clauses to make such powers permanent, going to do harm to national security? Because that is all we are talking about. Safeguards against abuse of power. The bi-party opposition to the Patriot Act II are simply trying to modify the new bill.

Yanny, I’d like you to answer something for me.  How has your life been impacted by the Patriot Act?  Mine hasn’t, so what’s the big friggin deal if the US wiretaps and listens in on suspected Al Qaeda terror cells in an attempt to break them up.  The Buffalo Six was caught this way.  I don’t know why you are all about “privacy”.  Can you give me an instance where your privacy has been violated by this act?

As a response to the above quote, Yanny, I don’t have the slightest idea what you are talking about.  I’m sure the sunset clauses as you put them were in place in case we didn’t need the patriot act any more.  Unfortunetaly, muslim terrorists are not stopping with their intent to murder as many Americans as they can.  With the porus border to our south, we need to have this act to watch out for those who are trying to come into this country to kill us.  Again, what abuse of power?  My rights haven’t been affected and neither have yours.  If terrorists and criminals in this country feel threatened by the patriot act, I have one response:  GOOD!

Terrorism is all hype?  Are you nuts?  Tell me how those savages killed 3,000 Americans or did those planes just go off course?

Rune Blade

[Guest]

Terrorism may not be all hype, but the Patriot Act is.

You asked others to explain to you, so you tell me Rune…
What provisions of the Patriot Act cannot be accomplished using previously existing legislation and obtaining a warrant from a judge, ANY judge?

I’ll tell you one, the bottleneck for HAZMAT CDL drivers.  But alas, you don;t need a HAZMAT CDL to make a truck bomb out of a Ryder rental, as we found out at World Trade in 93 and in OKC in 95.

You care to take a shot at what the Patriot Act DOES?

[Guest]

It is true that the patriot act can be horribly abused, but has this occured yet? My liberties have not been taken from me, and Im confident that the media would report something so dramatic. As far as I can tell, it has done no harm, and though i dont like the idea of giving more power to the feds, I think it is an effective means of helping to stop the terrorist threat.

[Guest]

@marine36:

It is true that the patriot act can be horribly abused, but has this occured yet? My liberties have not been taken from me, and Im confident that the media would report something so dramatic. As far as I can tell, it has done no harm, and though i dont like the idea of giving more power to the feds, I think it is an effective means of helping to stop the terrorist threat.

Two things Marine…

#1  Is your name Jose Pedila by chance?  If so, you just spent 3 years in a naval brig without having been charged with anything and without being allowed access to a lawyer.  You may not be Jose Pedila, but you do have somethign in common with him, you both are American Citizens.

2#  We HAVE seen your argument before…

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller

[Jermofoot]

You know, I don’t have AIDS, or HIV, so I thought maybe we shouldn’t worry about it.  In fact, strip any funding for it.  It’s not that serious, and isn’t an epidemic yet, so hey, why bother?

Ok, slightly off-topic, but you’ve got to think of more than yourself.  I’m not saying you aren’t important, or that you shouldn’t cover your own butt (that’s why I think the Patriot Act is literal BS) - no one else is obligated but you.

So, if it hasn’t bothered you when it was implemented, it won’t bother you when it’s shot down…American citizens aren’t the enemy.  We already have a paranoid state, we don’t need them tweaking, too.

[Yanny]

Sorry RB, I’ll get to your response in a few hours. Just kind of busy right now :) I haven’t forgot you.

[Guest]

Switch, Ive never heard of Jose Pedila. What is the source for your info? Ive never heard him mentioned before, pretty strange considering the media will do anything to attack Bush.

If what you say is true, it proves my point. It is an isolated incident, not something that is happening widespread.

I believe you are overeacting.

[Yanny]

He spelled it wrong. Jose Padilla.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/18/national/nationalspecial3/18padilla.html

Held without charge for years.

[Guest]

TY Yanny for the correction of my spelling.

As for source of news…
ALL of them.

Hell we didn;t treat the Rosenburgs THAT badly.

[cystic crypt]

@ncscswitch:

TY Yanny for the correction of my spelling.

As for source of news…
ALL of them.

Hell we didn;t treat the Rosenburgs THAT badly.

poor Ethel . . . .

[Jennifer]

I’m going to have to agree with Yanny on this one, Rune.  The Patriot Act, in and of itself, was a victory for the terrorist organizations.  Terrorists despise American freedom, especially since we try and free the people they keep domesticated through the use of terror in their own countries.  The Patriot Act just limited American freedoms and not terrorists.  That’s the problem with laws in general, you only limit those who follow the laws!

For instance, if you made it 100% illegal to own firearms, no law abiding citizen would have a gun.  However, many of your criminals would still have guns because they don’t care how many laws they break.

Or

Making it illegal to smoke.  Non-smokers would follow the law, but many smokers would break the law.  (I speak from first hand experience here.  Ft. Benning is a Smoke Free Base and there’s still cigarette butts all over the place out there.)

It’s better to just secretly send in Marine Force Recon or Army Airborne/Rangers and kill our target without notifying the public until afterwards.  Better - not ethical, morale or legal per-say, but better for success rate and domestic tranquility.

[Rune Blade]

Well, we can agree or disagree on this issue.  I think it is necessary, you all might not.  I don’t see why we should allow these muslim killers to use the freedoms we enjoy to kill thousands of Americans again.  If  9/11 wasn’t a wake up call, I don’t know what is.  Putting up the Clinton wall again between agencies is not the answer.  Secure the border, Secure our country.

By the way, glad to hear from you Jennifer.  Hope things are going well.

Rune Blade

[Guest]

@Rune:

Secure the border, Secure our country.

On THAT Rune I agree with you.  In point of fact, if we had secure borders, most of the Patriot Act provisions would be pointless and silly.