Rape shield laws.

[Mary]

“The problem is that people want to have casual sex with no accountability.”

I thought the problem was a woman falsely accusing a man of rape? And how is consensual sex any different than going into business with someone who eventually accuses you of some crime? Again, you’re very close to saying, “If you didn’t want to be raped, you shouldn’t have walked down the dark alley in a mini-skirt”. Casual sex isn’t immoral and it isn’t a crime. Falsely accusing a person is.

[Janus1]

You miss the point though, that someone’s entire life can be ruined because of a drunken hook-up. Both parties were consensual, both “dug” each other, there was no rape. But the girl, who was not as outgoing when sober, and really embarrassed about having sex right away with a guy, lies. Maybe she lies on her own, or maybe she tells her version (non-consensual) to others, and they encourage her to bring charges. The point is, whether an accusation is made, or not, whether charges are brought, or not, and whether the man is convicted, or not, does not matter. The girl’s friends will often “crusade” for her, since she wont tell her “rape” story to the police, they will make it their job to make his life miserable. If he is falsely convicted, obviously, his life is ruined, and now he is labeled as a sex-offender. But even if merely the charges, or accusation are brought, his life can still be ruined. Say you go to school. Suddenly, some girl says you raped her. Try going to classes, anywhere on campus, your dorm, etc. without getting a hard-time from people. Try going to class and having the professor not regard you differently. Try and have this not impact your grades, and overall college performance. Try to lead a normal life. Even if the charges are proven false, people form impressions that are hard to break. So now, after some girl decided she didnt want a reputation, this guy’s life is ruined.

I already pointed out that i support erring on the side of caution, that includes erring on the side of victims rights (in criminal cases, not civil, mind you). But this also applies to the justice system, not society. If the accusation is made, the procedure should be followed, and justice sought, and if the evidence points to rape, he should be convicted (following the procedures of the justice system), but it doesnt even have to get that far, for the guy’s life to be ruined. Society will be his judge, jury and executioner for the allegation. I also made the point that I dont know what can be done to prevent this, I dont know what kind of law, or procedure should be adopted to prevent this. Not realistically. You can say “keep it in your pants”, but thats not going to happen. People get drunk, people hook up. Casual sex is not wrong. Drunken sex is not wrong. Neither is necessarily a smart descision, but the parties involved should not be punished for consensually engaging in either (or both). You can blame the guy if you want, for engaging in casual, drunken sex, but like Mary said, thats too close to blaming the girl who wore a short skirt for getting raped. I dont know what to do to prevent this. Im merely pointing out that the system should be reconsidered, even if it is eventually left alone.

[221B Baker Street]

Janus,

I don’t deny that your case does happen on occasion.  But I think it more likely the girl will instead claim nothing happened on the date rather than that she was raped.  She could say many things as to why she didn’t come back to the dorm that night … I was too drunk to drive home …or I passed out on his couch…as examples.  This would result in the girl both keeping her reputation and avoiding the stigma/problems on her for being raped.  It also results in the guy not having to deal with this issue, and possible retaliations on her from his friends which also happens.

The more likely reason women claim false rape, IMO, is not on a one night stand but when there are problems in the relationship, such as when he breaks up with her or she finds he has been cheating on her.  And sometimes it is because the woman is nuts   :wink: .

Of course sometimes the guy is a rapist too :x .

[Jermofoot]

Even though most rapes involve a man violating a woman, it can happen the other way around (I know, it was mentioned and isn’t likely, but it’s happened).  Don’t forget that rape can occur between two or more people, even of the same sex.  Furthermore, rape is a subjective crime.  That makes it difficult to prove, which, if proceeded through regular judicial channels, provides inherent protection of the accused.  I’m sure there’s plently of prosecuting and defense strategy that we are all unfamiliar with when it comes to these cases - probably something involving the assessment of trauma in the accuser, since a true rape would cause trauma.

Another thing is that someone can accuse you of rape without ever having sexual, or for that matter, physical, contact.  Of course, this should wash out and flounder in the court room, but the stigma of being identified as a possible rapist isn’t wiped out from an appropriate ruling.  In this case, zipping it does jack squat.  I understand that SUD speaks generally (in terms of sex) when he says to zip it, which is fine advice.  However, rape isn’t just about sex, so no amount of zipping can save you from false accusations.  You may be saved legally through sound judicial practices, but damage comes in many flavors.  I think something that may help is to make penalties for false accusations more strict - give people a reason NOT to falsely accuse.  Maybe make it as tough as being convicted of rape, maybe not.

I’d have to add that the analogy with money out in a bad neighborhood does not compare to rape.  It just doesn’t.  Rape is an entirely different crime from robbery, murder, etc.  It’s a whole other ballgame.

SUD - you’re well versed.  What’s your background on this?  And I am not instigating anything - feel free to ignore my next question - have you had some experience with this?  Based on your posts, I perceive something underlying your tight argument.  Maybe I’m just crazy, or putting too much into a meaningless observation.  Either way, I’m curious.

[Mary]

I understand what you’re saying, SUD, but what struck me as odd was you would have no sympathy for a man falsely accused of rape (after enaging in consensual casual sex). That would be a horrible thing. Just as horrible as a man robbed of his life savings because he withdrew it from an ATM and was counting it on the street. Both actions display a lack of common sense, but neither person deserves to be victimized over it.

By saying you had no sympathy, I took that to mean you thought the man was just as guility as the woman who made the false accusations.

[Linkon]

Strange that just about all of you refer to the collegiate party crowd.

Nobody mentioned race.
Remember reading or watching “To Kill a Mockingbird” ?

There are always complexities to judgement.  The consequence back then of getting accused was death before trial if you were were not white.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056592/

http://www.cnn.com/US/9807/13/brawley.verdict.02/

[Janus1]

race is a seperate issue entirely. we are talking about false accusations, which, regardless of race of anyone involved, will fuck over the guy

[Janus1]

http://www.rapex.co.za/x/
interesting…

[Linkon]

In the segregationist deep south that is the setting for “To Kill a Mockingbird”,

If a white man raped a black girl, he would be tried and found not guilty by the court system run by the white man for the white man.

The times have changed since, but some places like to keep it the way it was.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0117913/

[Janus1]

In the segregationist deep south that is the setting for “To Kill a Mockingbird”,

If a white man raped a black girl, he would be tried and found not guilty by the court system run by the white man for the white man.

The times have changed since, but some places like to keep it the way it was.

again, seperate issue entirely. race means nothing if the accusation is false to begin with. remember, im not even discussing the cases that go to trial, but the stigma attached to someone for merely being accused of rape.

[Jermofoot]

@Janus1:

http://www.rapex.co.za/x/
interesting…

It’s a shame the world has come to this…
Can’t say I’d blame anyone for using it, though.