Do you think such a move would “sucker” the US into taking on Japan in the Pacific rather than heading for Europe?
Japan would still have all of it’s navy on the board, and could consolidate it in J2; though they would be lacking in air-power. Japan would also be up 11 IPC’s, spending 36 to the US’s now 32, in round 2. That would make a head-to-head battle of Japan vs US rather interesting. Japan, building in home waters, could do tranny’s and land forces to support their Asian campaign (which will be grabbing another half dozen or so IPC’s in J2) and still have plenty of IPC’s AND time to defend against a 2-turn-to-execute US attack on Japan (or any significant islands).
Meanwhile, Russia would be getting CLOBBERED in Europe thanks to reduced IPC’s and the lack of US forces in Europe. UK would be way down in IPC’s in Africa, and Germany would be hammering a weak Russia with little support from UK (especially if Germany took out the UK navy in G1 and G2).
So I don;t see US being suckered in to the Pacific even with the 5 territory Japan blitz. Doing so would only strengthen the Axis and their strangle-hold on Russia. Which means, it is up to Russia to stop the Japan incursions while also fending off Germany…
One other thing…
This strategy has never been tested against the Yakut Consolidation, which would obviously thwart not only the Yakut strike, but would also jeopardize all of Japan’s gains by leaving Japan exceedingly weak on both land forces and air forces to protect against blitzing Russian forces.
I guess it would all depend on the Allied movements. I think this would be a good auxiliary strategy to execute when things were favorable (as in a Russia player who didn’t pay attention to Japan). I’m going to try it, as I see the US wouldn’t be as much of a threat as I originally thought.
Then again, if you had one of those “bad rolls” days, it could turn into disaster, but you can never do anything about that!
Suckering the US player depends on how you read the US strategy. The thing with people is that they can be unpredictable. He might fall for it, or he might try and help Russia through Europe and Africa, still.
The only thing to do is try it a few times. At the very least, I do believe the Axis need to expand as much as possible, as soon as possible; this does that for Japan, but the overextension is what I’m worried about.
The way I usually play Japan, I go for most of those territories, but leave enough navy to attack Pearl. This is what I do:
Build 3 inf, 2 trn
SFE attacked by 2 inf and trn and ftr from Japan.
Yakut ignored
China attacked by 2 inf from MAN and 2 inf from Kwangtung with fighters from MAN and Burma
India attacked by 2 inf and trn from Phillipines and 2 inf from Burma and bomber from Japan (however this leaves trn vulnerable).
Then, attack Pearl with sub from Soloman Is. and BB and ftr from Caroline Is. and BB from Japan
lose all but ftr from Pearl (if possible), land ftr on AC in Japan SZ to protect trns there.
See, if you do this, you have made huge inroads into Asia AND taken out the US fleet in Hawaii, and you might just have a BB left to distract the US some more.
Ignore Yakut?
I’d rather let India go an extra round and take a territory closer to Moscow…
Only ONE territory space between me and Moscow, with two possible avenues of attack: Novo or Evenk.
I’d also rather hit Sinkiang than India, if I had to choose; using AF and the FIB forces to secure that territory. Then transport in 2 INF from Philipines to FIB. Tranny is vulnerable if UK left fig in India, but worth the trad if I can secure Sinkiang AND China AND SFE AND Yakut.
By sacrificing India on the first wave, I have two pincers heading for Russia, both only 1 move away at the end of Round 1; both able to team up to hit Novo, or attack seperately into Kazakh and Evenk.
If the FIB tranny survives, I use it to grab the East Indies INF to attack India, plus add the 2 ‘new’ FIB INF from Philipines and move into India with air support on J2. Meanwhile moving the surviving forces from my China strike to Sinkiang, SFE forces to Yakut, attacks in Kazakh/Novo/Evenk as opportunity arises, and start shipping combined tank and INF into Manchuria for the westward run.
Now, my navy is out of a job (except tranny’s) so see another thread for 2 options on the use of the Japan navy after J1 (one of them is rather unique).
@ncscswitch:
If the FIB tranny survives, I use it to grab the East Indies INF to attack India, plus add the 2 ‘new’ FIB INF from Philipines and move into India with air support on J2.
Also, if you use the “safe” Japan naval strategy I posted on another thread, by J4, India is going to get rocked AGAIN by the Japan capital ships plus carrier based fighters, plus additional INF IF it did not fall in J2 or J3. If it did already fall, then I can put 2 figs, and 2 more INF there after taking 2 other IPC’s from UK in Australia, and then proceed to take Persia, Syria, Madagascar, and eastern Africa.
By J6 or J7, I can have an IC producing land forces for Africa in India (or FIB if I am feeling paranoid) and be shuttling 2-3 loaded tranny’s almost anywhere in Eastern Africa (Persia, Syria, Egypt, Italian East Africa if in FIB; or add Kenya and Madagascar if in India) every round.
And I can pull this off while still keeping the Russians pinned and battling over the Evenk/Novo/Kazakh perimeter
Ahh yes very good. I like the idea of hitting Sinkang instead. That way, if the UK India trn has not been moved, it doesn’t matter. Also, to have Russia’s capital threatened by Japan by round 3 is also noteworthy.
Ahh yes very good. I like the idea of hitting Sinkang instead. That way, if the UK India trn has not been moved, it doesn’t matter. Also, to have Russia’s capital threatened by Japan by round 3 is also noteworthy.
That is always the trick to a "no bid’ game of A&A… Japan HAS to be a factor in Russia’s build/combat/non-combat moves by R3 in order to take the pressure off Germany.
It may at first be “minor” pressure. But with the AF that Japan has, even 2 INF can be a threat to Russia (when backed by 3-5 fighters and a bomber).
The idea is to get that “minor” pressure in place ASAP, then start building up that pressure. Within a few rounds, Japan is streaming 5+ tranny’s worth of forces every round: more than equal to Russia’s own build even at full IPC’s.
Add in the fact that Germany can destroy UK’s navy through round 2, and you have Russia in pretty dire straits. Germany has been building, Allies have not been reinforcing, and Japan is already knocking on the door. Ivan is looking a little scared…
How do you attack with your ground forces from FIB to Singkiang??? This is impossible without air power as the Himalaya’s are blocking your route…
This is A&A 2nd ed, not 4th ed (A&A Revised).
Well, you are ignoring my points about the allies still reinforcing quite readily even with your german saccing of their navy, but I’ll let it slide. :evil:
The 5 territory seizure is a pipe dream if I ever saw one. The first point is that he takes Yakut. As you stated, it doesn’t take into account the Yakut stack. I think I can say pretty readily that if Russia does not stack Yakut or attack Manchuria I will probably win the game as the axis. I do not see NOT doing one of those things as an option. And UK didn’t do anything either? Who are these people? Lets say that russia doesn’t move at all on round 1, because they are very, very insane. What are the odds on the 5 battles? I will split up the airforce starting from the first battle until I bring the odds for each individual battle above 50%, or I may leave them off if I need to raise two odds as high as possible. That is, if raising a battle to 50% means another battle is at 5%, but if I split them they are both at 30% I will do the latter. The only air you can use though is manchuria, japan and FIC though, the others are out of reach.
Yakut (3 inf and 1 ftr from man): 72%
SFE (2 inf, bb, 1 ftr from japan): 61%
China (2 inf from kwangtung, 1bmb): 30%
Sinkiang (2 inf from fic, 1 ftr): 81%
India (2 inf via tranny, bb): 4%
No wonder india and china were hairy! Adding up your total odds, that is…248%. 5 battles to distribute that, and you have 100% on 2 battles and 50% on one battle. So ON average he should win at MOST 3 of the battles, and 3 is just as likely as two. Further, even when you win battles you have so few ground forces that you are likely to win with just airpower. You won’t be able to actually take the land until J3.
It seems like a very silly move, but it would show poor allied play as well. I believe that it could succeed, but UK could also land in Germany on UK1 and win too.
Has all this discussion been for 2nd edition, no RR, no bid?
If so, why are we bothering?
I would be interested in discussing the feasibility and possible bidding strategy to go with it if we assume a bid of the lower 20s range. Otherwise it’s not really worth bothering with making a strategy for Axis, right?
I would think infantry poised to enter India and Yakut are the primary gating factors here, with a possible tank in Kwangtung. The primary question in my mind is if Japan is worth spending money on in this way, since we all know that it’s Germany that really needs it. I’ve always been interested in seeing if a power Asia strategy would work, but I’ve never actually tried it.
A Power Asia bid…Interesting. I’ve never tried this or heard much about this concept, does anyone have any experience with this?
Yakut (3 inf and 1 ftr from man): 72%
SFE (2 inf, bb, 1 ftr from japan): 61%
China (2 inf from kwangtung, 1bmb): 30%
Sinkiang (2 inf from fic, 1 ftr): 81%
India (2 inf via tranny, bb): 4%
Upon reading your analysis, I did remember the missing factor: Kamikaze AF as Japan (forgive me for forgetting, it was 16 years ago).
Re-analyze as follows:
SFE: 2 INF trans’d, BB, Japan Fig
Yakut: 3 INF Manch, Manch Fig.
China: 2 INF Kwang, Philipine Fig, Carrier Fig (suicide)
Sinkiang: 2 INF FIB, BOMBER
India: 2 INF trans’d, FIB Fig
My apologies. As such, the 5 teritory blitz should be in house rules.
A FOUR territory blitz that excludes India is viable under standard 2nd ed. rules, as described in another thread; variable being the Yakut Consolidation.
Again, my apologies.
@221B:
A Power Asia bid…Interesting. I’ve never tried this or heard much about this concept, does anyone have any experience with this?
That seems like it would be fun to try… Bid 3-4 inf in Burma or 7-8 inf in Burma if no RR. At least it would have the allies panic a little.
That seems like it would be fun to try… Bid 3-4 inf in Burma or 7-8 inf in Burma if no RR. At least it would have the allies panic a little.
I think you are talking more than a LITTLE panic! LOL
8 INF in Burma…
in J1, UK loses India, US loses both China & Sinkiang. Japan either re-takes Manchuria, or reinforces it. Usual tranny/INF build to stage for breaking the Yakut Consolidation in J3, or J2 if Russia pulled forces back to try to hold Novo.
By the end of J3, Japan would hold India, Persia, Sinkiang, China, Soviet Far East, and Yakut at a minimum; and would probably also hold Syria, Kazakh and Australia; possibly even Evenk and/or Novo. You are looking at Japan being up from 12 to 21 IPC’s (probably around 18) in just 3 rounds, with forces adjacent to Russia, and Russia building at -6 to -10 (a loss of 2-3 INF per round). UK would be down 4 to 7 just from Japan.
I’ll be honest, I think an 8 INF bid for Japan is WAY too high; game imbalance: Axis victory.
8 inf bid (or 24 ipcs) seems quite high to me as well. As NCSC says, Japan will be in Novo by J2, J3 latest. As the allies I would not want Japan strong in Novo before I could get the Allied inf to help defend… Russia falls on J4?
@221B:
8 inf bid (or 24 ipcs) seems quite high to me as well. As NCSC says, Japan will be in Novo by J2, J3 latest. As the allies I would not want Japan strong in Novo before I could get the Allied inf to help defend… Russia falls on J4?
By my estimates, if they simply ignored the Yakut stack, swept into Sinkiang with the 8 extra INF, plus the original INF from Burma, and AF, and then took Manchuria and Kwangtung forces into China heavy; with AF landing in Burma. So what if Russia takes Manchuria… Japan simply retakes it with a dual BB naval assist from their trannies; and those forces then are not being withdrawn to try to interdict in Novo…
Yep, I would say that Japan would certainly have enough forces in Novo to drop Russia by J4, MAYBE even J3, especially if Germany was duing some suicide missions to keep the INF count down in Karelia and/or Caucuses.
especially if Germany was duing some suicide missions to keep the INF count down in Karelia and/or Caucuses.
Well, Russia could divert enough forces from Karelia to Novo (or Moscow) to protect themselves from Japan (for a while) but this opens up Karelia to Germany. If Karelia is held by Germany, then the Allies will be unable to reinforce Russia…until they can retake Karelia which could be very difficult to do on turn 3 or 4. So maybe Russia falls on G5 instead?
I think a Power Asia bid of 12 (4 infantry) would make a more balanced game.
