2014 G40 league rules

[Karl7]

Ok, I am officially asking for a change to the league rules.  As has happened to all of us, I just had a game where the Axis (me) got killed round 1 – typical stuff with Germany losing its planes and Italy getting totally destroyed etc.  No crazy battles, just dice running away.

While it is “possible” for the Axis to recover, the game is designed so that the Axis can leverage their better units to make up the economic ground before the Allies can bring their economic weight to bear.  This obviously won’t likely happen if the Axis lose their good units right out of the gate.

So here is my proposed rule change:

At the end of the first round in a league game, the Axis player only may declare a redo for the first round, and the game is restarted from the beginning of Germany’s turn. This may be done only once per game. Once the redo is used, the Axis play must continue or concede. If a redo is opted for, the Allies automatically receive +5 to their bid and may place their bid before the German turn.

Gamerman criticized this idea on the grounds that it would give license to players to do crazy stuff. But I think this would be minimized by the fact that only the Axis can declare a redo and there really aren’t any “crazy” game altering moves the Axis can do R1 they already aren’t committed to.  Sure Japan could try to capture Hawaii R1 or Italy capture Cairo R1, but the reality is the Axis R1 is pretty set.

Thoughts?

[Soulblighter]

@Karl7:

Ok, I am officially asking for a change to the league rules.  As has happened to all of us, I just had a game where the Axis (me) got killed round 1 – typical stuff with Germany losing its planes and Italy getting totally destroyed etc.  No crazy battles, just dice running away.

While it is “possible” for the Axis to recover, the game is designed so that the Axis can leverage their better units to make up the economic ground before the Allies can bring their economic weight to bear.  This obviously won’t likely happen if the Axis lose their good units right out of the gate.

So here is my proposed rule change:

At the end of the first round in a league game, the Axis player only may declare a redo for the first round, and the game is restarted from the beginning of Germany’s turn. This may be done only once per game. Once the redo is used, the Axis play must continue or concede. If a redo is opted for, the Allies automatically receive +5 to their bid and may place their bid before the German turn.

Gamerman criticized this idea on the grounds that it would give license to players to do crazy stuff. But I think this would be minimized by the fact that only the Axis can declare a redo and there really aren’t any “crazy” game altering moves the Axis can do R1 they already aren’t committed to.  Sure Japan could try to capture Hawaii R1 or Italy capture Cairo R1, but the reality is the Axis R1 is pretty set.

Thoughts?

What about giving each nation a re-roll option that can only be used during the first turn of the game (defense or offense). This may solve the problem as well and honestly it is a lot easier to keep track off.

[Karl7]

@Soulblighter:

@Karl7:

Ok, I am officially asking for a change to the league rules.  As has happened to all of us, I just had a game where the Axis (me) got killed round 1 – typical stuff with Germany losing its planes and Italy getting totally destroyed etc.  No crazy battles, just dice running away.

While it is “possible” for the Axis to recover, the game is designed so that the Axis can leverage their better units to make up the economic ground before the Allies can bring their economic weight to bear.  This obviously won’t likely happen if the Axis lose their good units right out of the gate.

So here is my proposed rule change:

At the end of the first round in a league game, the Axis player only may declare a redo for the first round, and the game is restarted from the beginning of Germany’s turn. This may be done only once per game. Once the redo is used, the Axis play must continue or concede. If a redo is opted for, the Allies automatically receive +5 to their bid and may place their bid before the German turn.

Gamerman criticized this idea on the grounds that it would give license to players to do crazy stuff. But I think this would be minimized by the fact that only the Axis can declare a redo and there really aren’t any “crazy” game altering moves the Axis can do R1 they already aren’t committed to.  Sure Japan could try to capture Hawaii R1 or Italy capture Cairo R1, but the reality is the Axis R1 is pretty set.

Thoughts?

What about giving each nation a re-roll option that can only be used during the first turn of the game (defense or offense). This may solve the problem as well and honestly it is a lot easier to keep track off.

that’s not a bad idea

[gamerman01]

Just make an agreement with your opponent before starting.

[Karl7]

@Gamerman01:

Just make an agreement with your opponent before starting.

not many would, I think. Or at least that is my experience.  Most players like it up or down. Even I do. But, when the German air force flies into the sink, you change your mind about that.  Would be good to have a rule you can fall back on when your idealism is checked by the dice.

[gamerman01]

Part of the game, Karl  :cry:

If you can’t get agreement from individuals, why would I legislate it on everyone?  :-)

[Karl7]

@Gamerman01:

Part of the game, Karl  :cry:

If you can’t get agreement from individuals, why would I legislate it on everyone?  :-)

Well, there are a lot of rules that some find objectionable. I’m not sure why an idea should not become a rule just because some might not like it or otherwise agree to it face to face in a game.  The rule should have a basis in reason related to the game regardless of whether it is popular.

That being said, I’m only putting this out there to breath some life into league games.  As an old veteran who’s played only less fewer games than Mr. Roboto (or I guess more if you count my league totals), I can pretty quickly see the writing on the wall if the Axis get killed R1. It’s a real pain in the ass to try to slog on knowing your only hope is the Allies get killed by the dice. Better to get a second crack to set the game up properly.

[Soulblighter]

@Karl7:

@Gamerman01:

Part of the game, Karl  :cry:

If you can’t get agreement from individuals, why would I legislate it on everyone?  :-)

Well, there are a lot of rules that some find objectionable. I’m not sure why an idea should not become a rule just because some might not like it or otherwise agree to it face to face in a game.  The rule should have a basis in reason related to the game regardless of whether it is popular.

That being said, I’m only putting this out there to breath some life into league games.  As an old veteran who’s played only less fewer games than Mr. Roboto (or I guess more if you count my league totals), I can pretty quickly see the writing on the wall if the Axis get killed R1. It’s a real pain in the ass to try to slog on knowing your only hope is the Allies get killed by the dice. Better to get a second crack to set the game up properly.

Which is why I am suggesting you see if my earlier suggestion about the re-rolls works. Even if it does, it probably needs some tweaking. Like if you go for normal re-rolls or low luck ones etc. But a re-roll system is something players can more easily agree upon beforehand and its also easier to maintain. Hence the suggestion. Hell for a while players would have a re-roll for each player for a long time on this forum. Personally I think having the option to re-roll for an entire game is to much, but just the first round seems fair.

[Jennifer]

Here’s my thoughts on re-rolls:

1)  As was said before, you should set that up with your opponent ahead of time.

2)  It sounds, to me, like you are stretching yourself way too thin and hoping for average to above average dice.  (Why yes, I do believe this was the same advice DM gave me about 10 years ago…)  To me, it sounds like bitter grapes and while it may not be the case, that’s just how I am hearing it.  A phrase that comes to mind is:  “There is no kill like over kill!”  In other words, 70% odds still imply 30% odds of failure and dice are part of the game.

3)  You can always choose to play a game of Low Luck which will virtually guarantee your round one is without surprises.  You could even hedge your bets and say “Low Luck for Round 1 and attacks on Capitols, ADS for all other battles.”

4)  You can always concede defeat and start another game.

Yes it really sucks when the dice hammer you hard.  Just like it really ROCKS when you do amazing that first round.  Why should the axis have the benefit of restarting if the Allies don’t get the same benefit if the dice go really bad for them?

[Soulblighter]

Does the heavy bombers tech also influence tactical bombers as I saw them change after I received the tech.

[Panther]

@Soulblighter:

Does the heavy bombers tech also influence tactical bombers as I saw them change after I received the tech.

Rulebook says:
@Rulebook:

6. Heavy Bombers. Your strategic bombers are now heavy bombers. When attacking, whether in a battle or a
strategic bombing raid, roll two dice for each bomber and select the best result.

What you may have noticed is a change of the icon for tactical bombers in TripleA when you received the tech.
But Tacs still roll only one die.

[boldfresh]

who can remind me, i’m blanking on this at the moment.  what if usa attacks japan and there is a sub in z6.  there is no destroyer attacking, only an escorting acc.  usa intends to ignore the sub and land on japan proper.  japan uses a kamikazi attack on the acc.  does the use of the kami allow the sub to fight, ie no longer be ignored, since combat is occurring?

[gamerman01]

Subs and transports can only be ignored for movement purposes.

Rulebook is clear that scrambling aircraft forces a sea battle and then subs cannot be ignored.
I read the kamikaze rule and it is silent on the issue, but states that kamikazes are resolved “before any combat begins”, implying that it is not considered normal combat.

So logically it would appear that kamikazes do not force a sea battle in the way that scrambling does, however, I seem to recall that they actually do.  You shouldn’t have asked this question in the 2014 league rules thread, you should have asked it in the G40 FAQ thread.  If you had, you probably would have received an answer from Krieghund by now.  :-D

[JDOW]

@Karl7:

So here is my proposed rule change:

At the end of the first round in a league game, the Axis player only may declare a redo for the first round, and the game is restarted from the beginning of Germany’s turn. This may be done only once per game. Once the redo is used, the Axis play must continue or concede. If a redo is opted for, the Allies automatically receive +5 to their bid and may place their bid before the German turn.

Gamerman criticized this idea on the grounds that it would give license to players to do crazy stuff. But I think this would be minimized by the fact that only the Axis can declare a redo and there really aren’t any “crazy” game altering moves the Axis can do R1 they already aren’t committed to.  Sure Japan could try to capture Hawaii R1 or Italy capture Cairo R1, but the reality is the Axis R1 is pretty set.

Thoughts?

Hey Karl, I am clearly against such a rule and - this might sound extreme - such a rule would significantly reduce my interest to play A&A.
Luck is involved and this is good. There is no need that A&A has to be like chess. If you want to, simply agree on a low luck game.

In addition I second what Gamerman said, such a rule will only induce reckless G1s.

I think in the long term the luck factor is VERY important to motivate weaker players to play stronger players. It is like poker, the poker game exists because sometimes the worse player wins, this is good.

If you consider you A&A career one big game such G1 disasters  just even out.
Some players decided to stretch their G1, get great position often and immediate losses sometimes.
Others don’t stretch G1, get normal positions in average and almost never disasters. (and even 99,913% can end in a disaster as we both know:D)

I am totally fine with it and definitely think that that luck factor is an essential spice to that game which keeps it interesting to a larger audience, where people play each other on any skill level, because luck does on important thing (see my avatar):

It makes “hope dying last”

[boldfresh]

@JDOW:

@Karl7:

So here is my proposed rule change:

At the end of the first round in a league game, the Axis player only may declare a redo for the first round, and the game is restarted from the beginning of Germany’s turn. This may be done only once per game. Once the redo is used, the Axis play must continue or concede. If a redo is opted for, the Allies automatically receive +5 to their bid and may place their bid before the German turn.

Gamerman criticized this idea on the grounds that it would give license to players to do crazy stuff. But I think this would be minimized by the fact that only the Axis can declare a redo and there really aren’t any “crazy” game altering moves the Axis can do R1 they already aren’t committed to.  Sure Japan could try to capture Hawaii R1 or Italy capture Cairo R1, but the reality is the Axis R1 is pretty set.

Thoughts?

Hey Karl, I am clearly against such a rule and - this might sound extreme - such a rule would significantly reduce my interest to play A&A.
Luck is involved and this is good. There is no need that A&A has to be like chess. If you want to, simply agree on a low luck game.

In addition I second what Gamerman said, such a rule will only induce reckless G1s.

I think in the long term the luck factor is VERY important to motivate weaker players to play stronger players. It is like poker, the poker game exists because sometimes the worse player wins, this is good.

If you consider you A&A career one big game such G1 disasters  just even out.
Some players decided to stretch their G1, get great position often and immediate losses sometimes.
Others don’t stretch G1, get normal positions in average and almost never disasters. (and even 99,913% can end in a disaster as we both know:D)

I am totally fine with it and definitely think that that luck factor is an essential spice to that game which keeps it interesting to a larger audience, where people play each other on any skill level, because luck does on important thing (see my avatar):

It makes “hope dying last”

Well stated jdow.

[MrRoboto]

Just making cheap advertisement for Gargantuas XDAP2 - Tournament, cause it’s easy to miss.

Go on, find a team partner and sign up!

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34519.0;topicseen

[Whackamatt]

Rules that help a small minority don’t seem useful.  I don’t know of any rule that the majority of the people omit, save maybe using tech because it’s useless with token removal.
I disagree that G1 (I think Russia one when you use R1) is pretty set.  Having a redo in your back pocket would make you skimp on France down to a low 75% win percentage or lower so you could  also capture Normandy, Southern France, AND take out the French fleet along with the UK fleet while still landing a plane or two in Southern Italy.  That’s not viable without a guaranteed reroll.

Any rule that gives the Axis an advantage in a game already slanted towards them doesn’t make too much sense from a balancing perspective.

i believe that any “dicing” is evened out among all of the games you end up playing.  Losing must of the Luftwaffe in G1 really hurts, but it doesn’t happen very often.  If it does, it’s either bad luck or risky strategy.  It’s a risk vs. reward.

I’ve been anihilated on 98% of victory battles, but those few where I gamble on 70% odds and win make it totally worth it.

Is it fun continuing to play a game you’ve practically lost Round 1?  Certainly not, but hopefully you’ve had enough fun games to offset those statistical anomallies.

[Jennifer]

Get’s stick, find’s dead horse, BEATS IT!

Anyway, yes, I think it if you are at risk often enough of being unable to win because you got diced, you might want to look at what you are attacking G1 and with what.  A good strategy should assume you take heavier than normal losses that way if you happen to not do well in a battle, you are not completely lost for the rest of the game.  I seem to recall a really nifty strategy in Axis and Allies Revised that was 100% unstoppable by the Axis but it required 70%-ish odds for Russia 1…if it failed, Russia was doomed and the Allies would certainly lose, or at least have to scramble to keep up, but if Russia won, then Russia could single handedly take over all of Europe!  I would have LOVED a guaranteed redo of R1 if my first attack failed!  But I am perfectly willing to say that he attack itself was not strategically sound just due to the fact you had a good chance of losing the game all based on the first round’s move!  Same here!

Of course, if you and your opponent happen to agree that maybe Germany losing 5 fighters, 3 tactical bombers and a strategic bomber, as well as losing all submarines without any of the submarines hitting their targets and the Yugoslavians scoring 12 hits against the German aggressors was a bit much - then feel free to make arrangements. :P  Just make sure you are not coddling your opponent when he sends 1 tank, 4 infantry and 2 artillery to hit Yugoslavia and relies on 2 submarines to take out SZ 110 so he can have more punch elsewhere!

[Karl7]

So is there an official rule on bidding limits? I didn’t see one.

Can you buy facilities with a bid?

[gamerman01]

League rule 4B addresses bidding.
They are default rules that can be altered by agreement of the players.
The rule speaks of “units” being added to sea or land.  Facilities are “units”.