This is a really stupid question. Of course well suceed, we already are winning, though the media misconstrues it into a disaster. If Marines are being killed in Iraq, then yes, its definantly worth it, Marines die for a reason.
@marine36:
This is a really stupid question. Of course well suceed, we already are winning, though the media misconstrues it into a disaster. If Marines are being killed in Iraq, then yes, its definantly worth it, Marines die for a reason.
Is that the rule then? Whenever a marine dies its “worth it”?
Mary’s posts resonate with a lot of the pre-WWII rhetoric in support of PM Neville Chamberlain.
You know, the one who loved and trusted Germans so much that, he strangled military spending to the point where Hitler had a 3:1 air advantage vs GBR by the time Poland was sacked. Churchill was able to win the PM from the fascist sympathisers after the failed Norway campaign. Much could have been done to limit the suffering of Czechs, and German speaking Jews during Neville’s term of office.
This would have been Churchill’s depiction of Neville:
“oh my, bombers and battleships cost too much!!! I want to spend those billions for my domesic programs! Hitler already shook hands with me about having only continental ambitions, so we’re all cool about that. Why build bombers in the first place? They are only to used in war and I just got our nation out of another one.”You seem to be saying that unless we invaded Iraq, they would have eventually taken over the entire Middle East? Do you not understand Iraq was technologically backwards, crippled by sanctions, hemmed in by a ring of more powerful nations, and constantly monitored by the U.S.?
I wish you guys would understand that opposing the Iraq invasion does not = pacifism. I was supportive of the first Persian Gulf war. It was a very effective UN operation that cost us little, garnered us prestige, and stopped a greedy grab for land. Somehow, I doubt Chamberlain would have supported PG1. But go on, keep telling yourself that the majority of the public (which opposes Iraq) are a bunch of pacifists.
What I am saying is that SH would have eventually given germ warfare technology to nearly untraceable terrorist agents for operations against the US. Particularly in Texas, where GHW & Barbera Bush live. That would be just a short SW Air flight to your state.
SH would have also kept funding the suicide bombers against Israel. Taking him out removes an obstacle to Mid-east peace.
I am sure you have great domestic spending plans, but it can all be ruined by another terrorist attack. I would rather have Iraq as their base than some mosque by the local flight school. I do not want another 911 on our soil. Given the Spanish elections after 311, I doubt if AQ will care about their losses in Iraq.
The raids along the Syrian border are inflicting significant losses on the Baathists. The troops are just a few raids away from getting the rest of the replacement leadership. Iraqis are now looking for stable leadership. Keeping the insurgents on the run prevents them from establishing legitamate stability. It does not take away their ability to disrupt the stability that we recently set up there. They did get a decent turn out on the latest election. Things are more stable. Soon, they will be able to fight for it themselves. As in A&A, if you just sit on an advantage, the opponent will eventually build a counter. Minor advantages are not always permanent. You must exploit them and widen your edge in order to gain victory.
@221B:
According to the CIA, Iraq is turning into a training ground for terrorists. They come over, join the insurgency, and learn all the in’s and out’s.
True, but you cannot say Iraq is now a better training ground for AQ than Afghanistan was under the taliban. The Afghan training was unimpeded, while in Iraq the AQ terrorists are under direct counter attack whenever their presence is identified. And AQ, like the US, UK, cannot trust that the Iraqi people are always on their side. Many AQ terrorists have been identified and destroyed because local Iraqis provided the information necessary to do thies to the US, UK, Iraqi forces.
True, but it cuts both ways: the experience in Iraq is against an actual army, hell-bent on destroying them. Those that survive the “training” in Iraq are probably much more dangerous than those that came out of Afghanastan. Isn’t that general rule with soldiers? You can train them all you want, but nothing prepares you for combat like the real thing.
It then becomes a question of who will welcome these terrorists. If all exits in Iraq get bottled up, then they are trapped there and will eventually get hunted down.
@F_alk:
@Imperious:
majority of the public (which opposes Iraq) are a bunch of pacifists!
“Who lives by the sword, will die by the sword”
Think of it as surgery to remove a malignant cancerous tumor before trouble spreads.
Scalpel blades are often sharper than swords.
You seem to be saying that unless we invaded Iraq, they would have eventually taken over the entire Middle East? Do you not understand Iraq was technologically backwards, crippled by sanctions, hemmed in by a ring of more powerful nations, and constantly monitored by the U.S.?
Let’s not forget that nerve gas has been around a while. Old technology that SH would easily have given to someone bent on killing Iraelis and Americans in mass slaughter.
You seem to be saying that unless we invaded Iraq, they would have eventually taken over the entire Middle East? Do you not understand Iraq was technologically backwards, crippled by sanctions, hemmed in by a ring of more powerful nations, and constantly monitored by the U.S.?
Let’s not forget that nerve gas has been around a while. Old technology that SH would easily have given to someone bent on killing Iraelis and Americans in mass slaughter.
Where to begin with all this?
Three things to consider:
1. According to the 2002 NIE report, SH did not want to get involved in attacks against us out of fear of reprisal.
2. SH had ten years from PG1 to the Iraq invasion to try a terrorist attack against us, fund one, or provide logistic support for an attack. He never did. Too busy building presidential palaces, probably. But suddenly, when Bush comes to power, Iraq becomes an imminent threat, with their nuclear program, WMD’s, and ties to Al Queda
3. Iraq had no nuclear program, WMD’s, or ties to Al Queda. We’ve found one artillery shell with VX in it. If that’s the standard for preemptive invasion, then every other nation on Earth was more of a threat to us than Iraq was.
@221B:
According to the CIA, Iraq is turning into a training ground for terrorists. They come over, join the insurgency, and learn all the in’s and out’s.
True, but you cannot say Iraq is now a better training ground for AQ than Afghanistan was under the taliban. The Afghan training was unimpeded, while in Iraq the AQ terrorists are under direct counter attack whenever their presence is identified. And AQ, like the US, UK, cannot trust that the Iraqi people are always on their side. Many AQ terrorists have been identified and destroyed because local Iraqis provided the information necessary to do thies to the US, UK, Iraqi forces.
True, but it cuts both ways: the experience in Iraq is against an actual army, hell-bent on destroying them. Those that survive the “training” in Iraq are probably much more dangerous than those that came out of Afghanastan. Isn’t that general rule with soldiers? You can train them all you want, but nothing prepares you for combat like the real thing.
It then becomes a question of who will welcome these terrorists. If all exits in Iraq get bottled up, then they are trapped there and will eventually get hunted down.
Iraq has a huge, porous border which we are incapable of defending. But let me get this straight: we can’t stop illegal immigrants from crossing the Mexican border, but we’re going to make Iraq air-tight?
@F_alk:
@Imperious:
majority of the public (which opposes Iraq) are a bunch of pacifists!
“Who lives by the sword, will die by the sword”
Iraq was able to attack her neighbors and had the resources for limited offensive operations. She was stronger than all the nations arond her sake Saudi Arabia which has our boys defending since the last threat.
It was able to attack its neighbors …up to the last threat. So, you are changing your times you are relating to.
“Since the last threat” Iraq had no resources for offensive action and surely was not stronger than TURKEY or Iran or probably even Syria.
Even before the last trheat it was not stronger than Turkey (and thus the NATO).The second invasion was not about any threats of invasion.
What else? I thought Iraq was somehow threatening the US?
It was about the continued ignorance of UN sanctions that were violated way too many times to even count.
This stopped once your army was assembled and ready to invade.
“One nation ,One people, One president!”
George Bush at the his acceptance speech 2004.“One people, one nation, one leader”
translated Nazi slogan, 1933-1945Why can’t they elect a socialist government? Because we said so. That simple. Same is true with a islamic fundamentalist state.
So much for the freedom and democracy you claim to bring.
The Nazis were socialist, and see where that got us?
The Nazis stopped being socialist in 1934 after the Night of the Long Knifes.
Take all the democracy you want, but you are not ALLOWED by the United States of Amierca to elect people who are fundamentalist Islamic facist.
What if they chose a fundamentalist christian fascist gov’t ?
My definition of socialism…
Want to hear my definition of neo-con or born-again christian?
If they elected satan himself I could care less as long as it was in the best intrests of the US. I for one, could care less about the Iraqi people. I am not a christian super hero who thinks we should try to save anyone other than ourselves and a few REAL allies. I could care less about “bringing democracy” to Iraq. That has never meant anything to me. And you did sidestep the question of the horrible regime set up in post war japan/germany that were supposed to be democracys but to THIS DAY can not practice thier pre-war politics. Why? BECAUSE WE SAID SO!
And no, the nazis were socialist after 1934. The work incentive plans among many other things show that. The government had a plan to purchase cars and vacations for its citizens. Hardly a “hands off” government. Not to mention the direct ties the government had to industry. It was as socialist as it gets. It was just to the right, and not to the left. I wish it had been to the left, because than the whole movement would have fallen on its face and bankrupted (even worse than it already was) the German economy. Not a nice thing to wish on Germans, but it beats the hell out of a world war.
And why would you say the night of the long knives ended the socialist part of national socialism? The SA were the heart of the socialist part of the equation?
What I am saying is that SH would have eventually given germ warfare technology to nearly untraceable terrorist agents for operations against the US. Particularly in Texas, where GHW & Barbera Bush live. That would be just a short SW Air flight to your state.
Ok, back to the real world….
SH would have also kept funding the suicide bombers against Israel. Taking him out removes an obstacle to Mid-east peace.
As well as every other country in the MIddle East. Who are we invading next to help Israel? Perhaps Israel’s terrorist problems stem from its draconian polocies towards the Palesteinians. And why is Israel our problem? It’s enough we give them billions a year in unsecured loans. We don’t need to invade countries so Israel will feel more secure.
I am sure you have great domestic spending plans, but it can all be ruined by another terrorist attack. I would rather have Iraq as their base than some mosque by the local flight school. I do not want another 911 on our soil. Given the Spanish elections after 311, I doubt if AQ will care about their losses in Iraq.
Where have I heard this before? Vietnam maybe? If we don’t fight the communists over there, we’ll be fighting them over here! It was a lie then and its a lie now. The insurgents in Iraq are almost all native TO Iraq
"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Only 90 of the more than 5,700 people in custody in Iraq as security risks are foreign fighters, defense officials said on Tuesday, a figure that suggests the Bush administration may have overstated the role of outside militants in the deadly insurgency.
The officials, who asked not to be identified, said the U.S. military command handling security detention facilities in Iraq confirmed a report in USA Today that fewer than 2 percent of those in custody were foreigners."
I feel so much safer knowing we’re taking the fight to the enemy :roll:
The raids along the Syrian border are inflicting significant losses on the Baathists.
And yet they still keep killing our guys and Iraqis. Just like they have been for the last two years. Oh, and that’s another Vietnam-era trend I’ve noticed: body counts. Anyone else notice we’re measuring progress by the number of insurgents killed? When we started, Tommy Franks said, “We don’t do body counts”. Well, I guess we do now.
the troops are just a few raids away from getting the rest of the replacement leadership. Iraqis are now looking for stable leadership. Keeping the insurgents on the run prevents them from establishing legitamate stability. It does not take away their ability to disrupt the stability that we recently set up there. They did get a decent turn out on the latest election. Things are more stable. Soon, they will be able to fight for it themselves. As in A&A, if you just sit on an advantage, the opponent will eventually build a counter. Minor advantages are not always permanent. You must exploit them and widen your edge in order to gain victory.
Did you lift this out of 1984 or something? “Attention! Your Attention please! A majory victory, against the forces of EastAsia, has now put the war within measureble reach of ending!” Needless to say, we’re all getting tired of hearing “mission accomplished” every six months.
Where to begin with all this?
Three things to consider:
1. According to the 2002 NIE report, SH did not want to get involved in attacks against us out of fear of reprisal.
2. SH had ten years from PG1 to the Iraq invasion to try a terrorist attack against us, fund one, or provide logistic support for an attack. He never did. Too busy building presidential palaces, probably. But suddenly, when Bush comes to power, Iraq becomes an imminent threat, with their nuclear program, WMD’s, and ties to Al Queda
3. Iraq had no nuclear program, WMD’s, or ties to Al Queda. We’ve found one artillery shell with VX in it. If that’s the standard for preemptive invasion, then every other nation on Earth was more of a threat to us than Iraq was.
1. Who’s NIE? 2002? SH paid for assasination attempts vs. GHW Bush. Iraq also kicked out and hid damaging evidence from UN inspectors. He never toned down his rehtoric and cheered the 911 bombers. Evil is as evil cheers. Kim and Castro were the only other world leaders cheering 911 in the following week. That is anti-American enough to invite reprisal.
2. The 10 years showed that he clearly had nerve gas, the means to deliver it and kill or test it out on the Kurds in the mid 90’s. Killing Kurds, moving Sunnis into the north, and draining the southern swanplands were all part of consolidating power and depriving resources from potential internal enemies. In the decade prior to invasion, Iraqi West Bank agents also confirmed and then paid out numerous $25,000 awards to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.
3. Nerve gas is a WMD. If not the deliverable shells, then certainly the notes on how to make more.
SH would have also kept funding the suicide bombers against Israel. Taking him out removes an obstacle to Mid-east peace.
As well as every other country in the MIddle East. Who are we invading next to help Israel? Perhaps Israel’s terrorist problems stem from its draconian polocies towards the Palesteinians. And why is Israel our problem? It’s enough we give them billions a year in unsecured loans. We don’t need to invade countries so Israel will feel more secure.
Israel will finally have a chance to rebuild and repay those loans after peace is secured in the area. Continued instability there nessesitates continued arms supplied at generous lending terms.
I am sure you have great domestic spending plans, but it can all be ruined by another terrorist attack. I would rather have Iraq as their base than some mosque by the local flight school. I do not want another 911 on our soil. Given the Spanish elections after 311, I doubt if AQ will care about their losses in Iraq.
Where have I heard this before? Vietnam maybe? If we don’t fight the communists over there, we’ll be fighting them over here! It was a lie then and its a lie now. The insurgents in Iraq are almost all native TO Iraq
"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Only 90 of the more than 5,700 people in custody in Iraq as security risks are foreign fighters, defense officials said on Tuesday, a figure that suggests the Bush administration may have overstated the role of outside militants in the deadly insurgency.
The officials, who asked not to be identified, said the U.S. military command handling security detention facilities in Iraq confirmed a report in USA Today that fewer than 2 percent of those in custody were foreigners."
I feel so much safer knowing we’re taking the fight to the enemy :roll:
Enemies of the US should be regarded as such whether they are AQ, Baathist, ACLU, commies, KKK, etc… It does not matter to me if the prisoners our troops detain are Iraqi or not. SH had a lot of supporters and we did not kill all of them in the initial weeks of the invasion, so they are still out there. Right now those leftovers are working to destabilize the new Iraq. It would be nice to win them over to the new provisional govm’t, but if they are so much against it to take arms, then that cancer must be removed to allow the new nation to live.
Iraq has a huge, porous border which we are incapable of defending. But let me get this straight: we can’t stop illegal immigrants from crossing the Mexican border, but we’re going to make Iraq air-tight?
We have not gone back to carpet bombing yet. This would be totally unacceptable along the Mexican border, but the situation in Iraq might justify it. I think having night vision equiped aerial drones would also help in targeting future raids.
The 1984-ish construct of the new Iraq seems to be a good idea. Having all-seeing eyes everywhere in that country to spot trouble before it festers… doing that for 3-5 years would allow the govm’t and local military to establish stability enough for our troops to leave. However, I think the Bush and future administrations will keep military air bases there for at least 30 years. It will be something like the bases we maintain in South Korea.
… I could care less as long as it was in the best intrests of the US. I for one, could care less about the Iraqi people. … I could care less about “bringing democracy” to Iraq. That has never meant anything to me.
So, why did you start that invasion again?
And you did sidestep the question of the horrible regime set up in post war japan/germany that were supposed to be democracys but to THIS DAY can not practice thier pre-war politics. Why? BECAUSE WE SAID SO!
Because you took the people and showed them the camps nearby their towns. Because you took years to teach us democracy.
BECAUSE YOU CARED ABOUT “BRINGING DEMOCRACY” TO us.
That’s why Iraq is not going so well, you do not care for the people there, and they notice it.
… The government had a plan to purchase cars and vacations for its citizens.
So, Ancinet Rome was socialist because they had the same “panem et circensis” approach? The working hours and workers rights are more important parts of a workers party, and the Nazis “cared less” about that.
Hardly a “hands off” government.
Your definition of socialist is use-free.
Not to mention the direct ties the government had to industry.
Exactly, how socialistic to tie oneself to the capitalists. :roll:
I wish it had been to the left, because than the whole movement would have fallen on its face and bankrupted (even worse than it already was) the German economy.
Gosh …. Why did the War start in 1939, and not later?
Because Germany was totally and utterly bankrupted, even with the money that was stolen from the Jews and others.
And why would you say the night of the long knives ended the socialist part of national socialism? The SA were the heart of the socialist part of the equation?
Oh, you know something. It was the leader of the SA who was the “socialist”, that’s why he was still a threat to Hitler after he had seized power, but not needed anymore. Hitler could “care less” about him.
Exactly, how socialistic to tie oneself to the capitalists
Under National Socialism the key industries are controled by government under the system of corporativism directed to align the national economic goals to alleviate items like unemployment, inflation and any economic problems at the time. Under a Fascist system their are no trade unions but a system of guilds of various trade skills. Their is a form of capitalism and it is driven by self serving interests (the best kind). However the KEY industries ( oil production, steel, mineral,etc are totally under government control. Government decides what and when to build for example: all public works projects directed to serve the national plan.
The father of Fascism was Giovanni Gentile, but Hegel, arthur schopenhauer, even Darwin have been attributed to this bounty of ideas.
IMNSHO Fascism has never really been refuted. It only led to compromised situations where it got twisted and mutated to serve other goals. In Spain Fascism served them well as late as 1975 and they never got into or started a war once the commies got pushed out.
First Falk, I am going to assume that you are German because you say “us”. If you are not, I apolagize.
We started the invasion for the same reason you have had American troops in your country for the last 60 years. It is a strategic location. No war in History that I can think of has been fought for the reasons stated by the government. The civil war was not fought over slavery, it was fought over tariffs and tax apropriations. But doesn’t “free an enslaved people” sound so much nicer?
Democracy did not take hold in Germany because of American “feel good” mentality. If that is all it took than it would have done happened after WW1. The honest truth why the Germans gave up on National Socialism is because we utterly destroyed thier country. That was the plan at Yalta. No seperate peace. That is why civilian cities like Dresden were fire bombed. The allies knew the rhetoric that Hitler spouted off to get into office “We did not lose WW1, it was a stab in the back” blah blah blah. There is no doubt we won WW2, and that was the intent… This may be counter factual history, but I believe after the war was over… if allowed… the Germans probably would have voted in some Nazis if they were allowed to vote for whom they wanted. Esp around places like Nuremberg.
The US needs to have a presence in the middle east for the war on terrorism. Iraq is a very strategic location that we can respond to attacks from. I am not opposed to a “puppet government” if that is what it takes. But I am in the minority as far as that goes. Given time we will move more troops out, and pull our remaining forces into large heavily secured bases and let the Iraqi military handle its own stability problems (the fact there is only 1 combat ready brigade is insane, and someone should be held accountable). This is no more an occupation force than the occupation force you have in your country Falk. Did our military stike down the german government because they disagreed with us on Iraq? No. Disagreement is fine, polar f’d up radicalism is not. You can bet your sweet a$$ if there was another beer hall putsch (sp) the American forces there would come out to fix the situation.
And you are wrong about the nazis “could not care less about the workers”. It was psychotic and sad, but the whole concept of National Socialism revolved around being German. If anything, thier “love mania” was the whole root of it. Think of a stalker, he may “love” the one he is stalking… but that does not make him any less crazy.
Your SA thing still baffles me. The “leader” of the socialist arm of the Nazi party… Ernst Rohm, was a homosexual thug pedophile. Almost all historians agree that the regular members of the SA were little better than thugs in uniform. Hitler did not see Rohm as a threat, Rohm held some power yes… but few could really challenge his loyalty. So much so, that on the night of the long knives when he was dragged out of his bed by the SS he thought it was some kind of coup going on. He refused to believe Hitler would do that to him. He died with “Hiel Hitler” on his lips in the middle of a salute. The reason Hitler got rid of Rohm is because the Army would not cooperate with the Nazis while the SA existed. The ARMY saw it as a threat because the SA were a couple million strong, while the army was limited to only 100,000. The SA who were thugs, than went into the regular army and learned some disipline. Oh, and if you want to see the socialist mastermind of National Socialism look at Speer.
Germany was FAR from being bankrupt in 1939. Unemployment was almost non-existant in 1939. The reason those social programs I mentioned were put in place was to encourage people to work harder. Unlike FDR who tried to do social reforms first, and infrastructure second… Hitler built up Germany’s infrastructure first. Here is another key difference between left and right socialism. Between 33 and 39 the average salary of a man working 40 hours a week did not hardly change at all. What changed was that anyone could get a good job, and work almost unlimited OT if they wanted to. The 40 hours a week would keep you (and your family) fed and clothed and such. But to succeed you had it within your power to do so. When socialim is applied to the left you get a welfare state like France that prides itself for only having a 35 hour work week and huge unemployment.
Leader hit the nail on the head, so I won’t get into that.
I don’t know where you get your info from Falk. I would think being German you would have more info at your disposal, and that it would have been more focused on in school. I am not saying this to be insulting (honestly). If you learned some of these things in school, than the German school system has done its people an injustice. I am wondering too, if this is the type of thing that is taught in schools if that it was put in place to missinform Germans to exactly what the Nazi party was like. There is plenty of “evil” to be handed when it comes to the nazis. The German school system does not need to make things up.
And falk, you can probably tell I am a WW2 nut. In college I took every german history and world war class my univeristy offered. I only mention that so as to not sound like an extremist when I say I read “mien kamph” for refrences to a few pappers.
If “because we said so” does not work… than how come you have never been allowed to read it?
Oh, and to add. You should be glad that the war started in 39. It was planned for 43. 300 operational U-boats (which what was forcasted) would strangled England in a few months (not to mention the surface fleet that had planned on having 7 more tirpitz class battlehships and an aircraft carrier at that time). The German airforce in 39 was 3 times the size of the British airforce, how large of a disparity would there have been in 43? 4 more years of German tech playing into it too? 44-45 the Germans had rockets, jets, assault weapons, snorkels, almost unstopable tanks, air to sea GUIDED missles, STEALTH technology (that we <the united=“” states=“”>still uses today) and was on the brink of getting SAMs. And lets not forget the possibility of a German A-bomb.
If the war had not happened in 39, more than likely you would be goose stepping right now with Hitler’s son/grandson in charge of Eurupe.</the>
Zooey writes regarding Falk:
“because we said so”
Thats another thing that is this “falks” problem ( i cant say liberal anymore because thats a label)
Its like they have some monopoly on the truth from their “irrefutable” sources and everything is a fixed platonic “Ideal” from the heavens. Its "the everything has been solved " mindset which is allways totally refutable. Then they instead of just hear anothers idea and leave it at that, want to “educate” us on the morality of the ignorant masses. Sounds like some of my anthropology professors from UCLA. Yikes!
Think I know what you are getting at leader. But I am the one who said “because we said so”.
