@Jennifer:
@cystic:
I wonder how many of these would have gone along if they thought they were just going to overthrow SH. My thinking is that there might be a lot fewer, and there would be a stronger case against Bush’s little declaration.
Maybe a few less, but I think a majority of the willing went to help us, not because they believed in the cause themselves. If one friend going to fight at the flagpole after school, most other of his friends would attend to ensure it was a fair fight and to lend support. I think this is how most of the coalition is.
I think that if you want to use the schoolyard analogy, consider that the so-called “friends in attendance” are there to make sure that their “friend” does not beat them up afterwards for their lunch money.
@cystic:
between 25-100 000 Iraqi civilian lives
I havn’t seen any documentation to support this number, but let’s assume it’s true.
this is because you’ve been ignoring the US and UK data which have loudly trumpetted these numbers over the last year, but ok.
How many civilians died in WWI, WWII, US Civil War, War of 1812, Mexican/American War, American and Indian War, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, etc? I’d assume, as I’d have to without pulling hard figures, that the number is far in excess of the few thousand civilians that have died in Iraq. (And I’m assuming pure, innocent civilians, like cattle farmers, or goat herders or other innocents just going about their normal daily events, not theives, murderers, rapists, terrorists, etc.)
with this reasoning, i suppose that 9/11 wasn’t a big deal at all. Afterall - only a few thousand people got iced there. And Hurricane Katrina - a mere duststorm. I mean - did even 10K people get killed there? That’s nothing!! I guess that there was no reason to get our noses all bent out of shape over AQ.
@cystic:
untold Iraqi defenders killed during an unwarranted invasion
It was warranted. At the very least it was warranted because the Iraqi militia fired on US Forces repeatedly over 10 years. Also, I thought most of their “army” scattered into the hills after the initial engagements. They might be included in your civilian count.
friggen US militia flies over my country and bombs it, and we’ll see how long my pacifist views temper my rifle-purchasing and plane-shootin’ desires . . .
So, I guess you are against the small business and against the working stiff. Which is REALLY weird since most doctors, at least here, are self-employed and you say you are a doctor…does this mean you’re full of self-hatred?
this is reason number one . . .
@cystic:
midnight arrests and torture of citizens thought to be against the occupation by the occupiers
Oh we have been SO over this. Puppies in your cells, the smell of bacon frying, minor discomfort in temperature (32-90 degrees), a few sleepless nights and standing naked is NOT torture! Having your fingernails pulled out with pliers is torture, having your toes cut off iwth guitar string is torture, having your eyes popped with white hot pokers is torture.
and this is reason number two that i am returning to my attempted habit of boycotting any discussion with you. You are a terrible discussion partner.
I had previously posted scientific (peer reviewed) literature in a forum that YOU participated in that not only described a large number of people who were beaten to death in US custody, but also that American officials attempted to cover this up with fudged autopsy reports. I may be just a doctor, but getting beaten to death comes pretty close to torture in many people’s minds.
@cystic:
the destruction of 1800 US solders (in addition to allied) lives (nevermind the wounded etc.)
We’ve gone from killed to destruction….Bear in mind that Chicago had more die then died in Iraq, in BOTH wars. Bear in mind that New Orleans lost more in a day then died in Iraq. Bear in mind that Vietnam lost more in a day then in Iraq. And keep in mind some of those casualties listed are from natural causes or equipment malfunctions.
again a terrible analogy.
So the fact that only a few US solders died relative to other stupid wars justifies the invasion? I suppose these people would have died in the US if they were not killing Iraqis . . . in Chicago?? Really - you are so all over the map with your non-sequitors and fried logic.
@cystic:
increased friction between the west and the middle east
Yea, because we always got a warm embrace when any westerner went over there right? I mean, that’s why the state department issed that whole statement from the 70s to the present about how US citizens travelling to the middle east are on their own, they weren’t going to go save you from terrorists. Or how Israel and America were always held in high regard by the fanatics that come to power over there. Right, we were all lovey-dovey until we toppled Saddam….of course, I think we’re a lot more lovey dovey NOW that Saddam is gone. There’s two regimes that like us, the Kuwaitis and the Iraqis, Iran’s comming around and starting to follow the world laws, Arabia’s less fidgity now, etc.
You had very close friends in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait until Iraq.
Hmmmm . . . Saudi Arabia . . . didn’t many of those 9/11 bombers come from there? I guess since so few US citizens got killed then that’s why you didn’t bother invading Saudi Arabia . . . .
@cystic:
an increase in terrorism in the world
Not an increase. A decrease. They’re just in the spotlight more so it seems like an increase. However, most of the terrorist leaders and a lot of cells are being broken and captured each day. And many of what’s left are rag tag groups working without central leadership trying to annoy us in Iraq. Better there then here anyway. At least there we can focus on one small area, if they were here we’d have to focus there and here and in France and in Germany and in Poland and in Italy……
reason number 3. Now you’re just making stuff up.
@cystic:
now this is not my worry, couldn’t the >$85 B that you guys dumped into Iraq be spent in better ways? Maybe in reinforced levees around a couple of cattle fields/cities? Again - not my problem.
Oh, you mean like the 43 billion they had from special taxes in New Orleans to fund evacuation and reinforce the levvies that disapeared? Gotcha.
yeah - good timing. That was lucky that you got it in there AFTER the flooding.
