But if you dont try to stop Japan in India, Russia will fall before UK can land in France.
Damn, this is a good game!
The Indian IC is only a good idea if the US is going to focus entirely on a navy in order to occupy Japan (indeed I think this is one of the best Allied moves; US can easily outmuscle Japan in a few turns considering it produces more IPCs as well as can focus entirely on a navy while Japan has to muster land forces to invade Russia.)
If you just build an IC in India without a very large deal of US support, you basically just give Japan a complex. Japan can run India over very early on if he uses all his 6 starting fighters and 2 bombardments from the battleships.
OK, have to try this sometime!
The Indian IC is only a good idea if the US is going to focus entirely on a navy in order to occupy Japan (indeed I think this is one of the best Allied moves; US can easily outmuscle Japan in a few turns considering it produces more IPCs as well as can focus entirely on a navy while Japan has to muster land forces to invade Russia.)
If you just build an IC in India without a very large deal of US support, you basically just give Japan a complex. Japan can run India over very early on if he uses all his 6 starting fighters and 2 bombardments from the battleships.
Have to say you are so wrong!!! Japan will never reach India with any coastal bombardments in the first turn if UK does not want it, UK can easily block those possibilities!!! The destroyer in India would also hunt one of Japans transport down to block any kind of reinforcemnt that way as well! And more over when Japan can strike UK with six fighters then India will have like six fighters too (2 from Soviet) and dont forget about the AA gun!!! No boy you and all other who thinks India is not possible to hold better think again!
I have never lost India, but was very close ones! I have played against several players and noone were able to take India from me when I choose to put up an IC there. If Japan would be succesful to take India it would cost them almost all of their fighters, its simply too expensive if UK choose to hold it!
First, I never said that India can be taken first turn. I said early, which to me means like 2-4.
Second, I never said that India can’t be defended. I just don’t think it’s worth defending unless you have the US supporting it, either with his Sinkiang IC or a navy. I don’t think the Russians can afford to send his fighters down there with Germany breathing down his neck.
Third, I don’t believe you’ve seen Japan build an IC or 2 on the mainland. If the US is not threatening Japan, I always build 2 ICs on the mainland within the first 2-3 turns and dump out 6 tanks per turn. Your Indian IC isn’t looking good at all then. In fact, thanks for setting it up so I can eventually use it. UK alone is not a good idea to stop Japan. I will quickly ream India and send tanks up Russia’s rear end. This can happen more quickly than the amount of time it takes for the US to gear up into Germany.
The AA gun is really pretty crappy defense against 6 fighters and I forgot to mention the one bomber Japan starts with as well. Rolling ones on the first turn isn’t going to help very much unless you score many hits, and in that case it is luck more than strategy.
I don’t think you’ve seen what a good Japan player can do to India if Japan has the freedom to do so. You’ve never seen a Japan player with 1-2 ICs down, or really using all his fighters and bombardments and troops like turn 2-4 which can really weaken you. He also has a lot of stuff he can ferry with transports. In my experience I’ve never been able to hold India as UK if I’m the only one investing over there. It’s silly to think that your one IC producing 3 units can hold off the entire Japanese nation for the whole game without some extra support from the US navy (or some weird support from Russia which can really only come after a few turns if the US chooses to go after Germany). It makes me cry to hear you suggest Russia supporting India when he needs every man he can get his hands on to hold off Germany.
It might seem “too expensive” for Japan to take the IC there, but he should do it anyways if UK is the only one actively producing units to stop you and as early as possible. When Japan takes the IC he has gained 15 IPCs there. He has also forced the UK to spend a lot of IPCs there. The UK has gained nothing for his side except some time, which is valuable yes, but he hasn’t taken any territories or threatened the viability of Japan.
And the one transport you sink with your destroyer isn’t that important IMO in the long run. I always start buying 3 transports, which can quickly reinforce Indochina then grab some fodder infantry from Indies and such and meet up with a large invasion force in India.
I agree India is not that hard to hold, but it’s not based on the UK’s effort alone. You need some distractions from US/Russia.
And in case you haven’t yet, get used to not counting on your fighter in Anglo-Egypt. A good Germany player can easily take that position first turn (use 1 inf 1 tank from libya, 1 inf 1 tank from transport sending your bship and 1 fighter to take out the destroyer guarding it, then also 1 fighter from balkans into anglo, one bomber from Berlin into anglo will easily destroy UK’s 1 inf 1 fighter 1 tank there) leaving you one fighter down that can’t be sent to India.
How aggressivly do you play that IC in India? Britain can be pushing Kwangtung pretty hard while Russia menaces Manchuria with the Eastern infantry, and if America just puts down 10 IPCs a turn on this front, say through your suggested IC in China, Japan would be hard pressed to maintain it’s own mainland ICs. Plus with the transport off Australia, you’ve got a fairly decent chance (50% plus) to take one of thier 1 IPC islands.
Plus, it’s not really necessary for the IC in India to hold out forever, as long as it lasts long enough for Germany to be brought to heel. At that point, Russia can reverse its defenses and continue play much as it has this last age, with a few extra resources from eastern europe.
First, I never said that India can be taken first turn. I said early, which to me means like 2-4.
Second, I never said that India can’t be defended. I just don’t think it’s worth defending unless you have the US supporting it, either with his Sinkiang IC or a navy. I don’t think the Russians can afford to send his fighters down there with Germany breathing down his neck.
Third, I don’t believe you’ve seen Japan build an IC or 2 on the mainland. If the US is not threatening Japan, I always build 2 ICs on the mainland within the first 2-3 turns and dump out 6 tanks per turn. Your Indian IC isn’t looking good at all then….
No you are right when it comes to that you never said the first round and that you never said that India cannot defend succesfully when there is help from US or Russia. Right!
But you are wrong about that I have not played against a Japanese player who builds 1 or 2 ICs. As you mentioned US could help a lot by building another IC in China and I do belive some help frum US will be is necessary too! But it doesn´t mean that US need to choose either Japan or Germany at ones.
What I mean is if US build an armada in western US turn 1-3 with a few transports. Then I would like to see Japan goes wild about those 1-2 ICs in main land you are talking about. Imagine then that this armade has back up of some fighters and a bomaber at Alaska and moves to the coast next to Alaska. Then Japan must build defens or strike. If he attacks that armade he will most likely loose his fleet of fighters and ships or at least most of them if is lucky. But if he just build defens US can round Canada and go for Europe in the very next 2 turns or reinforce Russia!
Your idea about start building 3 transports in turn 1, as you always do, and 1-2 ICs and then 3-6 tanks will not leave any economic space to build any more ships or defens during the first 2-3 turns! And as you know when US starts building an armada Japan will most likely not stand a chance if not trying to counter it with some defensive navy builds!
So simply in plain english, India will not fall within the first 5 turns if US and UK use such an strategy. If not having very bad luck and a crazy one who play Japan. This startegy means KGF by putting presure on Japan then go for Germany, just to force Japan go defens for some turns and Germany feel safe so it will be spred out when one change the rute for the armada and goes for either western Europe or Southern Europe. Or perhaps first retake Africa and Scandinavia, since these territories most likely have fallen into German hands by now!
Another counter strategy against Japan goes wild and crazy in mainland is to let US go for heavy bombers and bring 2-3 bomabers and 2-3 fighters to Russia to ruin Japan on IPCs by SBRs and if possible hack slash its navy! These bomabers will be followed up be even more bombers heading for Europe! In such a strategy UK should simply bring an IC in Australia and build some fighters and subs ther just to force the Japanese think defens! An IC in Australia is simply not worth it for Japan if protected by 5 infantry and 2 or 3 fighters!
You seem to think that Japan needs to build a navy in the first few turns, if at all. Japan’s navy is plenty strong as it starts. The US needs to lug a lot of transports and other fodder to blow past 2 battleships + 2 loaded carriers. As US I built a straight armada (I even had the Pearl Harbor fleet alive since Japan was busy with a combined UK fleet in Australia first turn), and believe me even though you have the equivalent bulk of Japan’s navy in the first turn (build 1 carrier and 1 battleship which makes for a total of 2 loaded carriers and 2 battleships equivalent to Japan’s force), it takes 3-4 more turns to get enough forces to actually overwhelm his fleet as well as have the transports and such to invade. I usually just wait for the transports from the East Coast since I’m busy building offensive naval units on the West coast.
The thing about the war between Japan/US is all about who forces who to attack. Loaded carriers with some fodder provide ridiculously good defense, so it’s a question of forcing the other guy to attack you. Japan has no need to build more naval units for the first few turns anyways because he already starts quite strong in that department while the US has to catch up. Japan can just take that time to wipe out India/china/sinkiang.
I’ve never seen a US player put pressure from the coast of Alaska, so I have no idea how well it works. It would take a great deal of resources to get enough transports and troops to threaten mainland Japan.
I admit I’ve probably never seen anyone play exactly the way you do so you’re probably right. But from my experience playing Japan I have very little trouble running over India before the US fleet can get there. The US players I play against usually try to island hop instead of going up from the north off of Alaska.
You seem to think that Japan needs to build a navy in the first few turns, if at all. Japan’s navy is plenty strong as it starts. The US needs to lug a lot of transports and other fodder to blow past 2 battleships + 2 loaded carriers. As US I built a straight armada (I even had the Pearl Harbor fleet alive since Japan was busy with a combined UK fleet in Australia first turn), and believe me even though you have the equivalent bulk of Japan’s navy in the first turn (build 1 carrier and 1 battleship which makes for a total of 2 loaded carriers and 2 battleships equivalent to Japan’s force), it takes 3-4 more turns to get enough forces to actually overwhelm his fleet as well as have the transports and such to invade…
Hmmm… Ok lets start with that US during the first turn will reinforce his fleet on the East Coast with 2 destroyers (from sea zone 10 and 20) 2 transports (from sea zone 10) then on the first turn US buy 1 AC and 1 BB.
Next turn (turn 2) the Japanese player move his fleet away from Hawaii if his not braindead! On the second turn US use his fighters in Eastern US and Hawaii to land on the newly build AC. Moreover US buy 1 more AC and 1 transport and 1 destroyer and 2 artillery. Move 2 infantry to Eastern US from Central US and the fighter in Western US to Eastern US. Also the bomber lands in Alaska. Next turn will be no 3!!!
In that turn US move his fleet to Alaska with 5 inf and 3 art. The fleet is:
2 BB, 2 AC (loaded with 3 fighters), 3 DD and four Transports. During this phase US buy at least 1 fighter and 2-3 subs to kick Japan if attacking Alaska! If you think that Japan has conqured India already in turn 3, you better think again. I say no chance If I am playing UK and put all my money in that land with some temporary reinforcements from Russia! Russia can spare these extra fighters or tanks four just 3 turns IMO!
So my Q is: Since you (Japan) have bought three transports and most likely lost 1-2 of them already and also spent a lot on building 2 ICs and some 6 tanks during turn 3! And you would not have spend any IPCs on your navy except for those transports. Just as you said. Would you feel bad when you see an US armada next to Alaska whithin striking distance of your home land? I guess you would build some defence and gather your hole fleet around Japan. But still you would not feel safe since when you bought those transports, you did shuffle all your infantry and artillery and tanks from Japan to mainland. I guess Japan does not have more than 1-3 infatry and 1 bomber at most! You would buy infantry or bring a lot of your units back from mainland to Japan, just to be safe. Or what would you do?
Wait you’re not being smart. If you send your transports/destroyers immediately west, then who’s to stop Germany from landing in Brazil? I always send the east coast troops into brazil before I send the transports west, otherwise you get sneaked upon by Germany’s mediterranean fleet. That’s 3 IPCs you hand Germany. You would have to spend more to dislodge him because he probably he has his battleship lurking around too so you need to not only build a transport and troops, but a battleship or destroyers of your own if you ran away from brazil the first turn.
Even with that sort of fleet, would you honestly attack a defending force of 4 transports, 2 battleships, 2 fully loaded carriers, and probably the destroyer that survived Pearl Harbor? Even if you won, which you just might, your navy is in absolute shambles. You will have no transports left (hopefully you didn’t load them) and probably missing some fighters/carriers. You have no chance in hell of invading Japan without transports (which you will have to rebuild), while I spend minimal IPCs boosting it with inf each turn so by the next 2-3 turns before you can get there again, you can’t invade it. I don’t care if I lose my fleet because I have my 1-2 complexes down on the mainland. You have to spend many turns getting enough ground troops after our fleets get trashed which takes forever using transports.
Wait you’re not being smart. If you send your transports/destroyers immediately west, then who’s to stop Germany from landing in Brazil? I always send the east coast troops into brazil before I send the transports west, otherwise you get sneaked upon by Germany’s mediterranean fleet. That’s 3 IPCs you hand Germany. You would have to spend more to dislodge him because he probably he has his battleship lurking around too so you need to not only build a transport and troops, but a battleship or destroyers of your own if you ran away from brazil the first turn.
Even with that sort of fleet, would you honestly attack a defending force of 4 transports, 2 battleships, 2 fully loaded carriers, and probably the destroyer that survived Pearl Harbor? Even if you won, which you just might, your navy is in absolute shambles. You will have no transports left (hopefully you didn’t load them) and probably missing some fighters/carriers. You have no chance in hell of invading Japan without transports (which you will have to rebuild), while I spend minimal IPCs boosting it with inf each turn so by the next 2-3 turns before you can get there again, you can’t invade it. I don’t care if I lose my fleet because I have my 1-2 complexes down on the mainland. You have to spend many turns getting enough ground troops after our fleets get trashed which takes forever using transports.
Don´t you worry about Brazil UK or BB and DD in Atlantic or Bomber with fighter can handle it or just skip it!
But you are wrong. I would send all troops to Soviet Far East, since you did not attack. These units 5 inf 3 art would put pressure on Japan in Manchuria! I would also bring my subs to Alaska together with a fighter and buy 2 more transports and 2 infantry and 2 artillery.
Since you would only buy your tanks for mainland and go for India next turn UK would step back to Perisa. Just to spred your forces thin and be able to retake it next turn!
The thing is that Japan are Game Over next turn since you have not bought any defense in Japan! An attack force of 1 Bomber 2 BB 2 AC 4 Fighters 3 DD 3 Submarines and 2 fully loaded transports (2 Inf 2 art) + 2 unloaded transports against your 2BB 2AC 1DD 3Transports at the best!!!
The odds:
Combat cycle 1
US: [4+24+21+43+33+3*2 (opening fire) ]/6 = 6,8 hits (ca6 hits + 1 opening fire hit)
US casualties: 2 hits on BBs and 1 sub and 1 AC and 2 empty transports!
Japan: [24+23+44+3+21)]/6 = 5,8 hits (ca 6 hits)
Japan cassualties: 2 hits on BBs and 3 transports (one as a opening fire) and 1 DD and 1 AC
Combat cycle 2
US: [4+24+1+43+33+22 (opening fire)]/6 = 6,3 hits (ca 5 hits + 1 opening fire)
US cassualties: 2 subs and 2 DDs
Japan: [24+44]/6 = 4 hits
Japan cassualties: AC as an opening fire and 4 fighters and 1 BB
Combat cycle 3
US: [4+24+1+43+3]/6 = 4,7 hits
US cassualties: 1 DD
Japan: 4/6 = 0,7 hits (1 hit at the best)
Japan cassualties: 1 BB
Combat cycle 4
Then if possible US will siege Japan soil with 2 inf and 2 art if not defended by more than 3 inf and a bomber. Normally the Japanes player is not as fanatic as you are and have build up a pile of at least 8 infatry. If so, US will not attack this turn but force Japan to build even more to the next turn, remeber there are coming 2 new loaded transports from Midway by now. But these transports and those two that are left will not attack Japan but wipe them out from mainland by the use of the fighters and the bomber and shore bombardmentand from 2 BBs and the use of 5 inf and 3 art on the very next turn (no 5). As I said before UK will also take back India if lost since UK steped back last turn (leave it with 1 infantry)!!! So what we got here is a Japanese failure. No ships and no ICs on mainland!!! Japan will starv do death.
Germany on the other hand will almost have wiped out Russia by now, but not completely since Japan have not been so focused on Russia but India and the US ever growing navy. And Turn no 5 will be dedicated by the Allies to wipe Japan out of Mainland and build for a rescue mission of Russia, by giving a helping hand from the backdoore (Soviet Far East)! And now US got 2 ICs on mainland and can pump some 6 tanks per turn to boost Russia with! Game Over!!! It is as simple as that I promise! But there is a counter tactic to it and it is not a try to invade US or Brazil with Germany!!! :wink:
well, Mr Andersson. I must say that you convined me that you are right! And thats now just because im swedish too 8)
well, Mr Andersson. I must say that you convined me that you are right! And thats now just because im swedish too 8)
Were do you live dude, I live in Sthlm!
Linköping
Linköping
För stort avstånd för att lira A&A! Om du ska spela ngn turnering i Sthlm ngn gång så hör av dig! :D
Check out my optional rules in topic “More Powerful Airplanes” under the forum House Rules!
det går väl att spela över nätet, men jag har aldrig satt mig in i det.
det går väl att spela över nätet, men jag har aldrig satt mig in i det.
Nja, det bästa är fortfarande via mail! Det finns dock en beta version på ngn form av hemmabygge (PC-version), men det går sannolikt inte lira över nätet!
