Does anyone else play a slow game as Japan?

[Spendo02]

Japan only exists as more than a speedbump unless it takes the DEI and holds them for a few rounds.

The choice is when to try for it.  The longer you wait, the more resistance you face.  Japan’s game is in playing aggressive and taking risks.  You’ve got ample aircraft to trade for strategic advantage, so use that in your planning - particularly in removing Chinese units from your flanks where trading a Ftr for an Inf means you don’t have to land ground units in the North to deal with them swinging in behind you.

I’ve always liked a J2 move to take Flip and Borneo.
I’ve done J1 DOW and although the momentum is strongly in your favor, it tilts quickly back to even on dicey rolls and puts you into a dogfight in China.

J3 or later DOW is going to be a simple play for Japan to march on Moscow.  Problem is that you allow India to get large and they just start the shuttling of units to the crown prize of the European win: Egypt.  Germany is generally in no position to hold off the UK and US while also making a march to a well reinforced Egypt by India.

The lynchpin, therefore, of the entire game is cutting India out economically. This is Japan’s sole job.  Either by conquest or convoy or some combination of both.  This plays into Germany’s favor because it makes Egypt much easier to claim if India is unable to reinforce Egypt.

So the longer you wait to cut down India, the worse off it gets for Japan - and later, Germany.  J1 or J2 is the best DOW strategy to keep India from stopping a German swing from Moscow to Africa.  And that assumes Germany is successful in Russia - which is never a guarantee for even experienced strategists.

[ghr2]

@ItIsILeClerc:

@wheatbeer:

In most games, India would require maybe 10 transports at the high end. If Japan approached a whopping 33 transports that early in the game, wouldn’t the US be the obvious target?

Also, how do you plan to use all of Japan’s airpower without buying any carriers (at least I don’t see room in the budget for new warships)?

About the obvious target:
It is a gambit for a reason ;-). Either the USA buys it, or it doesnt (there are good reasons for both). Last time I played with a friend he only started to garrisson San Fransisco AFTER I took Honolulu because he indeed thought I was going for Sydney and did not expect me to go to Honolulu from NZ. But I have to admit I came in with ‘only’ 10 TRS. I think if the USA starts building defenses only after Japan shows up in strength in the Carolines/NZ/Japan, it is too late unless all its European forces are also immediately recalled, depending on how many land/air forces there are.

About bringing the IJA to bear:
J7 take Alaska, 1 TRS is enough for that. If need be, another 1 TRS can be used to put screens into West Canada. J8 IJA lands in Alaska after the initial invasions.
Alternatively: J6 take NZ. J7 Take Panama, IJA lands in NZ. J8 IJA lands in Panama after the initial invasions.

The thought is that Japan does not need its full airpower in the initial landings but will need it for the follow-up battles (apart from the 6 aircraft you can use from the three carriers you have at start). After all, the assumption is that the USA must be slightly surprised for Japan to execute this order. In case The US is prepared (and as a result, has not focussed on Germany so heavily), Japan would obviously execute another order, going for Sydney + Calcutta anyway, albeit maybe a turn later than normal.

So it boils down to how well can Japan make it look like mainland USA is unexpected and then DO the unexpected, the USA buying it or not and where its European forces are and what they are doing.

It is still more of a brainstorm than a real plan, I must admit I have doubts about this myself still. � But I really… really… want to punish the USA for all its 100% focus on Germany Ignoring Japan completely and being able to get away with it ;-)!

Ah heck, maybe I should say taking Sydney + Honolulu is enough punishment for focusing too much on Germany >.<

This whole scenario seems very situational for a very specific opponent.

[ItIsILeClerc]

@ghr2:

@ItIsILeClerc:

@wheatbeer:

In most games, India would require maybe 10 transports at the high end. If Japan approached a whopping 33 transports that early in the game, wouldn’t the US be the obvious target?

Also, how do you plan to use all of Japan’s airpower without buying any carriers (at least I don’t see room in the budget for new warships)?

About the obvious target:
It is a gambit for a reason ;-). Either the USA buys it, or it doesnt (there are good reasons for both). Last time I played with a friend he only started to garrisson San Fransisco AFTER I took Honolulu because he indeed thought I was going for Sydney and did not expect me to go to Honolulu from NZ. But I have to admit I came in with ‘only’ 10 TRS. I think if the USA starts building defenses only after Japan shows up in strength in the Carolines/NZ/Japan, it is too late unless all its European forces are also immediately recalled, depending on how many land/air forces there are.

About bringing the IJA to bear:
J7 take Alaska, 1 TRS is enough for that. If need be, another 1 TRS can be used to put screens into West Canada. J8 IJA lands in Alaska after the initial invasions.
Alternatively: J6 take NZ. J7 Take Panama, IJA lands in NZ. J8 IJA lands in Panama after the initial invasions.

The thought is that Japan does not need its full airpower in the initial landings but will need it for the follow-up battles (apart from the 6 aircraft you can use from the three carriers you have at start). After all, the assumption is that the USA must be slightly surprised for Japan to execute this order. In case The US is prepared (and as a result, has not focussed on Germany so heavily), Japan would obviously execute another order, going for Sydney + Calcutta anyway, albeit maybe a turn later than normal.

So it boils down to how well can Japan make it look like mainland USA is unexpected and then DO the unexpected, the USA buying it or not and where its European forces are and what they are doing.

It is still more of a brainstorm than a real plan, I must admit I have doubts about this myself still. � But I really… really… want to punish the USA for all its 100% focus on Germany Ignoring Japan completely and being able to get away with it ;-)!

Ah heck, maybe I should say taking Sydney + Honolulu is enough punishment for focusing too much on Germany >.<

This whole scenario seems very situational for a very specific opponent.

Yes sir, it is! For a specific type of opponent I’d like to add:
for all those USA players who love to remove the US fleet from the Pacific sending it after Germany and Italy and then continue to ignore Japan completely I’d like to add. Some of my AA-friends love to do that and I am sure there are more people who have discovered its effectiveness. It is so strong that it requires a specific plan because standard strategies does NOT seem work for Japan in this scenario…
As an example, I have seen the UK relieving Japan from governing Calcutta in UK7 (after it was taken by the Japanese in T3), attacking it with 117 attack factors (46 of which came from land units). All because of the strong US presence in Europe.

[ItIsILeClerc]

@Spendo02:

Japan only exists as more than a speedbump unless it takes the DEI and holds them for a few rounds.

The choice is when to try for it.  The longer you wait, the more resistance you face.  Japan’s game is in playing aggressive and taking risks.  You’ve got ample aircraft to trade for strategic advantage, so use that in your planning - particularly in removing Chinese units from your flanks where trading a Ftr for an Inf means you don’t have to land ground units in the North to deal with them swinging in behind you.

I’ve always liked a J2 move to take Flip and Borneo.
I’ve done J1 DOW and although the momentum is strongly in your favor, it tilts quickly back to even on dicey rolls and puts you into a dogfight in China.

J3 or later DOW is going to be a simple play for Japan to march on Moscow.  Problem is that you allow India to get large and they just start the shuttling of units to the crown prize of the European win: Egypt.  Germany is generally in no position to hold off the UK and US while also making a march to a well reinforced Egypt by India.

The lynchpin, therefore, of the entire game is cutting India out economically. This is Japan’s sole job.  Either by conquest or convoy or some combination of both.  This plays into Germany’s favor because it makes Egypt much easier to claim if India is unable to reinforce Egypt.

So the longer you wait to cut down India, the worse off it gets for Japan - and later, Germany.  J1 or J2 is the best DOW strategy to keep India from stopping a German swing from Moscow to Africa.  And that assumes Germany is successful in Russia - which is never a guarantee for even experienced strategists.

A pretty strong strategy I agree!
In any ‘normal’ situation where the USA also invests enough into the Pacific to threaten Japan, that is.
Also, Japan is able to accomplish a Victory on the Pacific (i.e. I agree Japan is a mere speedbump but only to a certain extend) but this is also very situational…

[Demandr3d]

There are people who take the pac fleet and go home?

WOW.  Just. Wow.

I would love to play against somebody who tried that…id be winning the game around turn 6 or 7…and it would be easy to see coming, and impossible to stop.

Take ANZAC first, wall it off with a giant fleet, threatening hawaii, then march on India with an unstoppable hoard…I cant think of a single way that the allies could stop this from happenning, if the USA left the Pac and then spent its first 3 or 4 turns income in the Atlantic.

[knp7765]

Yeah, I’ve never played anyone that totally evacuates the Pacific as USA. They may invest most of their money on the Atlantic side but the starting fleet usually stays in the Pacific to worry the Japanese and at least put an occasional warship or bomber in the Pacific.

[ItIsILeClerc]

@Demandr3d:

There are people who take the pac fleet and go home?

WOW.� � Just. Wow.

I would love to play against somebody who tried that…id be winning the game around turn 6 or 7…and it would be easy to see coming, and impossible to stop.

Take ANZAC first, wall it off with a giant fleet, threatening hawaii, then march on India with an unstoppable hoard…I cant think of a single way that the allies could stop this from happenning, if the USA left the Pac and then spent its first 3 or 4 turns income in the Atlantic.

You are on the right track but from (bitter ;-) ) personal experience I can tell you that is not going to work. After Sydney I think you best go for Hawai and end the game right there (you only need to hold your VCs till the end of the turn so your fleet/IJA losses are allowed to be high as long as you can take Honolulu with substantial number of land forces).

Taking ANZAC first means you are not taking Calcutta till J6 at best, but more likely one or two turn later.
Believe me, with the USA 100% in Europe, the ‘Wallies’ (western allies) of all people will be stronger around Calcutta in R6 than Japan can be. Especially because the UK has like 25+ aircraft on the Uropean map (protected by the US commitment).

Although, now that I think of it, maybe it can work if you ignore Russia and largely ignore the Chinese ‘main force’ (except for taking Yunnan in force and the odd areas that you can get without any real commitment) because last time I had to abandon Calcutta I had some task forces deep into Russia and opposing the large Chinese stack in the northwest most Chinese area, but you better prepare to be :-o because I don’t recall I had THAT many units in Russia/China… tho I admit I made mistakes in that game ;-)
It depends largely on your playgroup ofc but in my friendslist the Wallies are known for having 120-ish attack factors into Calcutta R6 (50 or so coming from land units). And their Strategies have yet to be Sublimed as well so it can be more.

[Demandr3d]

I routinely force an India capitulation between j6 and J8, with nothing more than a kwang IC on j1, and a FIC IC on J3, and the starting ground.

Its really not hard, as by UK3 india is typcially earning 4-6 bucks, depending on convoys.

So therefore if the USA has left the pac, my initial 5 trannies, (3 starting plus 2 bought J1 in a 2 tran IC buy) is more than enough to stomp Anzac into dust.  All those Brit air u mentioned can choose to save either India, or Moscow from a G6, they certainly cant do both.

Ive done it in games where USA didnt leave the pac, tho granted its much more difficult and far slower, as you mentioned.

[ItIsILeClerc]

Let’s say I had to abandon Calcutta because I was unprepared for this USA 100% Europe approach and I was playing too routinely into Russia, China AND India with Japan, and also made the mistake of DOWing in J2  :roll: (remember USA in this scenario can get to Gibraltar the very same turn as Japan DOWs, save turn 1).

But Saving Moscow AND retaking Calcutta is exactly what I saw them UK bastardo’s do :lol:. And that has little to do with Japan, but mostly with the dynamics in Europe (Germany + Italy being weaker, USA + UK being stronger, Russia being safer, RAF sooner relieved from Moscow, etc. etc.).

[ghr2]

@Demandr3d:

I routinely force an India capitulation between j6 and J8, with nothing more than a kwang IC on j1, and a FIC IC on J3, and the starting ground.

Its really not hard, as by UK3 india is typcially earning 4-6 bucks, depending on convoys.

So therefore if the USA has left the pac, my initial 5 trannies, (3 starting plus 2 bought J1 in a 2 tran IC buy) is more than enough to stomp Anzac into dust.  All those Brit air u mentioned can choose to save either India, or Moscow from a G6, they certainly cant do both.

Ive done it in games where USA didnt leave the pac, tho granted its much more difficult and far slower, as you mentioned.

Turn 1?  I think you mean to add 1 or 2 turns to those IC’s.

[Demandr3d]

uhhh, no I buy the kwangsi IC on turn 1, and on a j2 dow take Fic and IC it on turn 3….wheres the confusion?

[wheatbeer]

@Demandr3d:

uhhh, no I buy the kwangsi IC on turn 1, and on a j2 dow take Fic and IC it on turn 3….wheres the confusion?

Kwangsi is a 1 IPC territory … perhaps you meant Kiangsu (aka Shanghai) while he was thinking you meant Kwangtung (aka Hong Kong)

[ghr2]

@wheatbeer:

@Demandr3d:

uhhh, no I buy the kwangsi IC on turn 1, and on a j2 dow take Fic and IC it on turn 3….wheres the confusion?

Kwangsi is a 1 IPC territory … perhaps you meant Kiangsu (aka Shanghai) while he was thinking you meant Kwangtung (aka Hong Kong)

Bingo