13L G40 seththenewb(allies+10) vs MagicQ(axis)

[MagicQ]

I think the proper battle sequence would be

1. attacker roll
2. defender choose casualty
3. defender roll
4. attacker choose casualty

Italian subs attack first here is not a surprise attack. They can only hit warships so that they should roll separately  from other attackers.

[MagicQ]

Probably when defender’s sub present, things will get more complicated.

[seth4god]

Yes, I have destroyers present in the battle. So your sub special abilities are negated. But triplea still has your subs rolling first before everyone else, forcing casualty choices prior to the rest of the attacker’s dice. It does this with both defending and attacking subs and it’s wrong.

Quick example

I attack a sub with dd, ca, 2ftrs. In triplea the sub rolls first and gets a hit before the attacker knows if he’ll get the sub or not. If the attacker chooses to lose the dd and then all his units miss that sub escapes. If the attacker decides to play it safe and kill the cruiser, then he risks losing a more valuable piece for nothing if he gets a hit.

Or say there’s a massive slugfest w/10 subs in the attacking force. Those subs are rolled and produce 7 hits. The defender thinks that a battle he should win just went south in a hurry and loses some carriers because he ‘knows’ that the rest of the attackers are about to stomp him. Instead the rest of the attackers score just 5 hits despite hordes of air, ca, bbs, etc. Now the defender’s lost a bunch of his flight decks because he made casualty choices based on the sub rolls despite having destroyers to negate the subs.

[MagicQ]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 8

Purchase Units - Italians
            Italians buy 1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Italians
            1 cruiser moved from 97 Sea Zone to 94 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Libya to Tobruk
                  Italians take Tobruk from British
            1 carrier moved from 97 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
            3 destroyers and 4 submarines moved from 97 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
                  Italians take 97 Sea Zone from British
            2 fighters moved from 97 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
            1 cruiser moved from 94 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
            1 carrier moved from 93 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Western Germany to 92 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Caucasus to 92 Sea Zone

Combat - Italians
            British scrambles 3 units out of Gibraltar to defend against the attack in 92 Sea Zone
            Battle in 92 Sea Zone
                Italians attack with 1 bomber, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, 3 fighters, 4 submarines and 1 tactical_bomber
                French defend with 1 infantry; British defend with 1 battleship, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, 5 fighters and 3 transports
                Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the British
                Italians win with 1 bomber, 1 cruiser, 2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 72
                Casualties for French: 1 infantry
                Casualties for British: 1 battleship, 1 carrier, 1 cruiser, 3 destroyers, 5 fighters and 3 transports
                Casualties for Italians: 1 carrier, 3 destroyers, 1 fighter and 4 submarines

Non Combat Move - Italians
            1 fighter could not land in 92 Sea Zone and was removed
            1 bomber moved from 92 Sea Zone to Southern France
            1 tactical_bomber moved from 92 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 92 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
            1 transport moved from 97 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun, 4 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Caucasus to Northwest Persia
            1 artillery moved from Normandy Bordeaux to Southern France
            1 infantry moved from France to Southern France
            1 infantry moved from France to Northern Italy
            1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Southern Italy

Place Units - Italians
            1 carrier and 1 destroyer placed in 93 Sea Zone
            1 infantry placed in Northern Italy

Turn Complete - Italians
            Italians collect 23 PUs; end with 23 PUs total
            Objective Italians 4 Control Iraq Or Persia Or Northwest Persia: Italians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 25 PUs
            Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 30 PUs

[MagicQ]

Got a little bit of luck there.

[seth4god]

Ok and Nope

Reroll after the 2nd round since you ignored my stated wish.

[MagicQ]

Subs got 2 hits and there is only 2 warships so there is no choice for defender. What do you reckon?

[seth4god]

The battle was rolled illegally, hence the results aren’t valid. I told you why they were illegal and gave you the first round. But I stated that I would not accept any further sub combat that was rolled on triplea. That document clearly states that sub combat needs to be rolled on the forum and THAT’s what I’m protesting.

[MagicQ]

@seththenewb:

Yes, I have destroyers present in the battle. So your sub special abilities are negated. But triplea still has your subs rolling first before everyone else, forcing casualty choices prior to the rest of the attacker’s dice. It does this with both defending and attacking subs and it’s wrong.

Quick example

I attack a sub with dd, ca, 2ftrs. In triplea the sub rolls first and gets a hit before the attacker knows if he’ll get the sub or not. If the attacker chooses to lose the dd and then all his units miss that sub escapes. If the attacker decides to play it safe and kill the cruiser, then he risks losing a more valuable piece for nothing if he gets a hit.

Or say there’s a massive slugfest w/10 subs in the attacking force. Those subs are rolled and produce 7 hits. The defender thinks that a battle he should win just went south in a hurry and loses some carriers because he ‘knows’ that the rest of the attackers are about to stomp him. Instead the rest of the attackers score just 5 hits despite hordes of air, ca, bbs, etc. Now the defender’s lost a bunch of his flight decks because he made casualty choices based on the sub rolls despite having destroyers to negate the subs.

Thanks. I get what you mean by that. Attacker will take advantage of that little flaw of the software. But in most cases it won’t make any difference.

[seth4god]

I’m asking Gamer to get involved

[MagicQ]

@seththenewb:

The battle was rolled illegally, hence the results aren’t valid. I told you why they were illegal and gave you the first round. But I stated that I would not accept any further sub combat that was rolled on triplea. That document clearly states that sub combat needs to be rolled on the forum and THAT’s what I’m protesting.

I am not sure about that. How is that invalid? 2 subs hit 2 and there is only 2 warships. there is no need to ask for anything imho regardless of what the rest of Italian fleets do,

[MagicQ]

@seththenewb:

I’m asking Gamer to get involved

OK.

[MagicQ]

I think the problem will happen only when there are multiple chooses for defender.

[seth4god]

It doesn’t matter what you rolled as that dice rolling was illegal. I stated it and asked that the combat be done via forum. You blatantly ignored me and proceeded anyway.

And it seems like you still don’t get why subs rolling first, be they defending or attacking subs, when destroyers are present is an issue. I’ll wait for Gamerman01 to weigh in before I make any further comment.

[boldfresh]

how many subs are we talking about?  are there subs on defense with an attacking destroyer or what?  please put in text form the issue.

[seth4god]

cv, 3dd, 4ss, ca, 3ftr, tac, bmb vs 3dd, cv, ca, bb, 5ftr

2 subs carried over into the 2nd round.

[MagicQ]

@seththenewb:

It doesn’t matter what you rolled as that dice rolling was illegal. I stated it and asked that the combat be done via forum. You blatantly ignored me and proceeded anyway.

And it seems like you still don’t get why subs rolling first, be they defending or attacking subs, when destroyers are present is an issue. I’ll wait for Gamerman01 to weigh in before I make any further comment.

Don’t mean to ignore you or anything. I just feel it make no difference in this case. Italian subs roll first and the rest of the Italian fleets roll right next to it. There is nothing in between. And defender have to choose 2 warships as casualties and there is no other option.

[boldfresh]

are the attackers on the left?  if the subs are on attack and there are no defending subs, then there’s not at big issue right?  if the issue is that the subs attack and a casualty choice is required before the rest of the attack roll is done, then that is easily solved.

[MagicQ]

@MagicQ:

@seththenewb:

It doesn’t matter what you rolled as that dice rolling was illegal. I stated it and asked that the combat be done via forum. You blatantly ignored me and proceeded anyway.

And it seems like you still don’t get why subs rolling first, be they defending or attacking subs, when destroyers are present is an issue. I’ll wait for Gamerman01 to weigh in before I make any further comment.

Don’t mean to ignore you or anything. I just feel it make no difference in this case. Italian subs roll first and the rest of the Italian fleets roll right next to it. There is nothing in between. And defender have to choose 2 warships as casualties and there is no other option.

I am talking about round 2 since you have accepted round 1 result.

[boldfresh]

@Boldfresh:

are the attackers on the left? �if the subs are on attack and there are no defending subs, then there’s not at big issue right? �if the issue is that the subs attack and a casualty choice is required before the rest of the attack roll is done, then that is easily solved.

Magic,

he may be considering to save a destroyer or not.  so he wants to see your entire attack roll before being asked to choose his casualties.