XDAP Final… eh, i mean, Semifinal - Allweneedishank vs. TeamBoldDutch

[Hank13]

@Boldfresh:

you still haven’t answered my question.  can we agree to post the combat move to the forum prior to rolling dice IF there are any dice to be rolled on the entire turn (including just convoy dice even).  PLEASE CONFIRM

Sorry I missed the first post. I’m fine with it, but to be honest I don’t see the point now. If we are going to give scramble / intercepts / ools on a per battle basis then why bother?

[boldfresh]

well, it obviously needs to be posted if there is a scramble or intercept choice.  but also, there are other reasons you may not be aware of, but trust me, it’s good for everyone.  so can we agree to do it?  it takes about 5 seconds.

[Hank13]

I don’t speak for our team, so we’ll have to wait for my partner to log on so he can give his opinion on all that has been posted today.

[boldfresh]

haha ok.  we are talking about posting a map.  but ok.  :-D

[boldfresh]

my turn won’t be coming until i hear from allweneed as to his thoughts on all of this discussion.  i want crystal clear understanding before we proceed.

[Hank13]

@Boldfresh:

my turn won’t be coming until i hear from allweneed as to his thoughts on all of this discussion.  i want crystal clear understanding before we proceed.

Sure no problem.

I was thinking of a really easy solution, but I don’t know if you will go for it. (By the way I have yet to talk to my partner tonight).

All 4 of us are stand up guys who are playing this game to win by beating the opposite team and not to win because of a technicality. So if we assume that the opposing side is always making decisions with positive intentions then everything else we have discussed doesn’t matter. Positive intentions means you don’t need to ask for a scramble/intercept when the odds are overwhelming that you are going to win, you select casualties to keep maximum defenses, etc. If the odd time the choices you made are not what the defender would have done then the defender always has the right to ask for the battle to be re-done with scrambles, etc.

Bold, I can hear you screaming at your computer that we have discussed this at length already today, but this is the best option. Otherwise I will be asking you and Dutch for your decision for every single battle as I refuse to have this game decided by a penalty because I didn’t ask you if you wanted to scramble a plane that you would certainly lose. I know you have said you are by your phone/computer all day, but the reality is I am not. I have 15-20 minutes max to sit at the computer at any given time during the day which means my turns will take an eternity to complete.

So, simple question: regarding my first paragraph: yes or no (you don’t need to elaborate as I think I already know your answer). If yes, then let’s go, if no, we can wait for allweneedislove to weigh in and ultimately get Garg to give us a ruling.

Cheers

[boldfresh]

the answer is no.  the beauty of the whole situation is you are japan and are only making one move.  we can both be online when you make that move (or at least i can) to give you instantaneous choices.

sound good?

[boldfresh]

i hear what you are saying about “positive intentions” but the problem is there are strategic issues you are either not aware of or are not considering.

[boldfresh]

don’t distress hank.  most of your battles are going to be clear so i don’t see it being a big issue in this game.

[boldfresh]

@Boldfresh:

don’t distress hank.  most of your battles are going to be clear so i don’t see it being a big issue in this game.

i mean japan’s battles.

[boldfresh]

i know you played the ancients and you are probably still traumatized by their incredibly slow speed of play.  we are freaking light speed compared to their snail’s pace.

[gamerman01]

@Boldfresh:

actually hank, while your logic may seem reasonable, it does not take into account a very important fact - the attacking player did not wait for an answer on the submerge or not submerge.  therefore, rolled dice stand and the defender has the right to roll the sub or not.  this is customary and correct when all is taken into account.  rolled dice should always stand when there is not an illegal move.

magine this scenario hank and love, and you will see where you logic immediately breaks down in a similar (not exactly the same) example.  you attack a sea zone that has a lone destroyer and an airbase with 3 fighters that can scramble.  you attack with 5 ftr, tac, and a sub.  you make the choice for your opponent that he will not scramble.  you roll the battle and you whiff in the first round and he hits.  you whiff in the second round and he hits. unlikely i know, but stuff like this happens to me all the time.  now what?  your attack against his 4 units (if full scramble) was 91% with 3 units remaining… but if he’s behind, he may take the chance of getting lucky!

now you say, well, if you want to scramble the entire battle has to be rerolled?  i don’t think so.  now, you could argue that you should not have to continue after round 1, but even that is an argument i would not want to pursue if i was in the attacker’s position.

I knew Allweneed’s policy of blowing by his opponent’s choices and then giving him the option of re-rolling the whole thing was going to cause a problem in the future, but I couldn’t get through to him.

Little did I know Dr. Bold would fully dissect it in a high stakes late tournament game….

[boldfresh]

Gamer feel free to further elucidate the issues involved if you wish.  It could be helpful to these guys.  The thing is, it could also unfortunately enlighten them to some strategic issues of which they are currently unaware and improve their chances in this game.  Tread thoughtfully please  :wink:

[gamerman01]

@Boldfresh:

Please acknowledge that u understand that not asking for a casualty choice, scramble, intercept etc does NOT constitute an illegal move.  Illegal means impossible but allowed by tripleA in error.

Hate to be difficult, but I believe not asking for scramble decisions is in fact illegal.
It is a rule in the rulebook that the defender makes a scramble decision before the game proceeds.
However, Allweneed’s MO for online play is to plow through the defender’s choice for expediency (which is ridiculous given that you have made it very clear that he would never have to wait for more than like 1 hour) and then give the defender the option to change the decision but the whole battle will be re-rolled.
I don’t have time right this minute to expound on the fallacy of this, but I just wanted to point out that I think it is in fact illegal to skip the defender’s choice without his express permission to skip certain choices (which is in itself a choice)

[Hank13]

Agreed!

So, ask for everything, no matter how small / insignificant you think it is.

Enough chit chat, let’s play!! It’s getting late (here) and my window for posting is closing fast. . . .

[boldfresh]

Sorry due to the delays working this out my window for posting has also closed as date night is about to start.  This weekend is also likely off limits for posting this very strategic r2, due to work and family obligations.  I cannot guarantee a post until monday ( I can commit to having a move for you by monday when u get done with work hank).  In addition I am now not quite sure which strat I am going to take with russia - & dutch is twisting my arm pretty hard as of late this afternoon…  :wink:

[allweneedislove]

wow, i really stirred up some shit. less than day later and there are 3 new pages of posts with no move!
this is going to be one hell of a long reply, i hope everyone spends as much time reading this post as i take to write it.

i find it tedious to wait for ool and scramble decisions mid turn. i just want to crank out a turn and be done with it. i know this is not the proper way to play so the whole delay and pages of posts are my fault, sorry to all. boldutch’s lightning quick responses are the fastest i have seen(kudos to you) but i still don’t like waiting in between rolls, if i have a couple minutes infront of the computer with no distractions i want to get the turn posted. who know how long it will be for me to get concentration time again. i guess i will have to play with better etiquette and more annoyance for myself.

@Boldfresh:

Wrong.  What u did was not an illegal move. It was a bad assumption…

not sure why you are trying to parse words, but if you really want to i will oblige.
@Rule:

Scramble
Scrambling is a special movement that the defender can
make at the end of this phase. It must be done after all of
the attacker’s combat movements have been completed
and all attacks have been declared.

@dictionary.com:

il•le•gal  [ih-lee-guhl]
adjective
…
2.
contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass.

i did not let you scramble after all combat movements had been declared which is contrary to the official rules.

@Boldfresh:

I will show you the relevant text from your thread with atlanta axis soon.  I covered this exact scenario exhaustively.

i had seen your post(s) in our xdap round 7 game which is why i clearly stated in our game thread before moves were made how i would like to handle a scenario like this in our game.

@allweneedislove:

…
if there is an illegal combat that arises throughout the game(could be due to lack of rules knowledge or just a mouse slip) i suggest that the opposing team can do one of two things. either play the the turn legit, or keep the illegal move.

1. tell the offending team to keep the illegal move as is and play on.
2. go back to the moment/roll of the actual error and redo the combat from that point ignoring all other dice that rolled after the illegal move.

this allows the non-offending team to pick what is best for their side…

@Boldfresh:

I agree with your post regarding an illegal move…

we had agreement to avoid problems like this form arising.

@Boldfresh:

I give u choices within minutes if not seconds….  for crying out loud what is so tough to understand…

you are right i should wait for your choices and will do so in the future. the tough thing for me to understand is how the agreement we made pregame for situations like this is perplexing to you. now that i know you find this abhorrent i will play with better etiquette and wait for decisions.

@Boldfresh:

Bottom line…

your 29 posts after this statement disagree.

@Boldfresh:

Tell u what love.  In a show of good faith I will let this go and give u credit for not understanding the terminology.

i appreciate your offer in good faith. but do find it funny as it contradicts our earlier agreement. we will not need to worry about this in the future as i will wait for scramble and ool decisions.

@Boldfresh:

If u r so certain I am not going to scramble then this makes good sense.  And of coursw if I dis you could then take over the move again and redo your noncom.

great idea. i like this and might use it in the future.

@Boldfresh:

But NO more of this rolling then saying u will go back and reroll if I want to scramble.  Ok?

ok.

with that said i will reiterate that me giving you the option to scramble after seeing the result with out the scramble can ONLY benefit you strategically. there is absolutely NO downside. you get extra information of how the battle played out before having to make the scramble decision. i am not sure why you do not want this small advantage(don’t feel like you need to explain it to me)

@Boldfresh:

Please acknowledge that u understand that not asking for a casualty choice, scramble, intercept etc does NOT constitute an illegal move.  Illegal means impossible but allowed by tripleA in error.

i do NOT acknowledge your interpretation.

@Hank13:

…
3. We Need to Make a Table Rule
…
I hope this makes sense and we can discuss this reasonably.

we already made a table rule covering this exact scenario, check out reply #29 and reply #32 of this thread

@Boldfresh:

…

From now on stop and ask when there are naval units involved.  I am still considwring having this entire battle rerolled, so that tells me allweneed made a doubly bad decision.  I say doubly bad because it is not obvious, it is merely borderline…

from now on i will.
as per our pregame agreement you can have the battle rerolled. i am happy to have you reroll(i think scrambling is a bad move for you)

@Gargantua:

It sounds like you guys are moving forward on this issue. So I won’t make a ruling.

In my experience, and if was forced to make a ruling however, it would be that the entire battle is re-rolled.

Based on these points:
A. If the Germans had rolled 6 hits instead of 2, and the allies had actually wanted to scramble, the allies would be well within their right to demand a reroll of the entire battle.
B. Just because we now “see” an chance to nuke a few extra german aircraft, doesn’t mean that one can opportunistically scramble.
C. Keeping “some” dice in a battle, and adding others, is a slippery slope, and should always be avoided.
D. The decision to scramble, comes BEFORE dice are rolled, and by forcing the entire battle to be rerolled, the allies who were “denied” their right to scramble, are now properly faced with the exactly same choice they would have been given prior to the battle,  (This prevents the game from being skewed).
E. I don’t believe the allies would have scrambled.  But of course… feel free to scramble, and reroll the entire battle if I am wrong.

thanks for your input garg!
your ruling is actually what we had agreed pregame, but you took the time to lay out all the reasons for it

@Gargantua:

That said.

No more “Assumptions” should be made.  That’s the big problem here.

i agree, and will abide to no more assumptions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE_oIIIwWl0

@Boldfresh:

bottom line, i stated it as clearly as could possibly be stated in the atlanta axis game thread at that time.  so what i am doing is giving you ONE FREE PASS on the issue and giving you credit for not having read it or understood it…

19 posts after disagree that this was the bottom line.
i know you stated it clearly, i read it and understood what you wanted, but it made no sense. so we came to a resolution in this thread. or so i thought.

@Boldfresh:

again, i can offer you this thought if you really really really feel like i am being a stickler for no good reason.  you can leave the relevant battle for last and tell me to roll it out if you want, if you are so sure i will not scramble, etc.  but if you make an assumption and roll dice, those dice will STAND no matter what.  the only thing that will negate a rolled dice is if you have a unit attacking somewhere it could not possibly reach according to the rules.

that’s illogical.

@Boldfresh:

this includes bombing runs.  if you send 4 bombers at moscow and i have 2 possible interceptors, and you assume no scramble and have 2 bombers shot down by AA, i can retroactively scramble my fighters and if one of my ftrs hits you, you will be bombing moscow with only 1 bomber.  which of the two dice you rolled for bombing can be determined by taking the FIRST dice.  the bomber(s) shot down by interceptors will be assumed to be the damaged rolls moving from right to left.

i think when you realize how punitive this can be, you will decide that waiting a few minutes for our decision is preferable.

and this is too.

@Hank13:

OK, couple of points here.

1. You posting your personal preferences in a game you are not a participant in does not make policy.
2. You not liking something, does not make policy.
3. This is something we should have addressed BEFORE starting this game. We didn’t, so let’s figure it out now…

i agree

@Hank13:

…A simple solution for all of us going forward is this:

1. Post every combat turn regardless of the complexity of combats.
2. Attacker states any battle that could have scrambles, interceptors or ool involved.
3. Defender gives their order(s) and the attacks can proceed.

If anyone thinks there is a way to game the defenders by this then we could do it battle by battle. I would prefer not to do this as I don’t like leaving an active combat turn running on my computer if it may be hours until I return to it. I have been burned by this in the past and it is annoying! But if that’s the consensus then so be it…

i agree with the exception of giving ools. ools need to be given round by round.

@Boldfresh:

…i just want to make sure it never happens again.

it’s all good boys, i just want to keep everything moving smoothly!  you may or may not be aware that decisions of this nature can have a major impact on the game - but if we do what we have agreed, we will not have a problem, and it will likely cost us very little time at all.

excellent lets get things moving smoothly.

@Boldfresh:

ok here’s the deal.  we do not provide always provide OOL’s prior to a battle being rolled, for obvious reasons.  …

i agree

@Boldfresh:

as to posting the combat move in all cases if there are dice to be rolled on the turn, are we in agreement that this will always be done?

if you want, sure.

@Hank13:

So if you don’t ask us for an ool, we get to change our casualties after the turn is over if we have surviving pieces? I don’t want that to happen and I don’t want to complicate this.

Can we just have one standard that we all follow every time so there is no dispute after the fact. I don’t want ambiguity getting in the way of what should be an excellent game, especially if Garg is ruling that penalties will be imposed for not asking even when the answer is obvious if the defender puts up a fuss.

i know it is annoying, but i think it is best that we play by the book and wait for all scramble, intercept, ool decisions even when they are obvious.

boldfresh has shown great disdain for the previously agreed upon resolution.(which could only strategically help the defender) i do not think you can convince him.

@Boldfresh:

my turn won’t be coming until i hear from allweneed as to his thoughts on all of this discussion.  i want crystal clear understanding before we proceed.

most of my thoughts are above. i do not agree with your flawed resolution. you reneged or did not understand our agreement. in light of this i will wait for decisions in the future.

@Gamerman01:

I knew Allweneed’s policy of blowing by his opponent’s choices and then giving him the option of re-rolling the whole thing was going to cause a problem in the future, but I couldn’t get through to him.

Little did I know Dr. Bold would fully dissect it in a high stakes late tournament game….

kablooom.
you told me, and i knew it would happen.
for this game i was pretty sure bold would dispute this, so i got agreement ahead of time.

it is very strange to me that i am giving my opponent an advantage(albeit a small one) and they do not want it.

@Boldfresh:

Gamer feel free to further elucidate the issues involved if you wish.  It could be helpful to these guys.  The thing is, it could also unfortunately enlighten them to some strategic issues of which they are currently unaware and improve their chances in this game.  Tread thoughtfully please  :wink:

i understand the strategy and am willing to give the tiny advantage to my opponent to avoid the annoyance of pausing mid turn. and yes i know you are very quick, and i do appreciate that.

@Gamerman01:

@Boldfresh:

Please acknowledge that u understand that not asking for a casualty choice, scramble, intercept etc does NOT constitute an illegal move.  Illegal means impossible but allowed by tripleA in error.

Hate to be difficult, but I believe not asking for scramble decisions is in fact illegal.
It is a rule in the rulebook that the defender makes a scramble decision before the game proceeds….

you are not being difficult.

@Gamerman01:

…

I don’t have time right this minute to expound on the fallacy of this, but I just wanted to point out that I think it is in fact illegal to skip the defender’s choice without his express permission to skip certain choices (which is in itself a choice)

i would be happy to read and discus this “fallacy” with you.
please p.m. or post on another thread as this thread does not need more off game posts.

[boldfresh]

A post for the ages.  :-P

[gamerman01]

@allweneedislove:

@Boldfresh:

Bottom line…

your 29 posts after this statement disagree.

Gotta love that
@Allweneedislove:

i know it is annoying, but i think it is best that we play by the book and wait for all scramble, intercept, ool decisions even when they are obvious.

There it is.
What a novel idea - playing by the rules

[gamerman01]

@Boldfresh:

A post for the ages.   :-P

Indeed  :lol: