sent a chat so we don’t clutter up this thread
XDAP Final… eh, i mean, Semifinal - Allweneedishank vs. TeamBoldDutch
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Boldfresh reminds me of my brother…
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It sounds like you guys are moving forward on this issue. So I won’t make a ruling.
In my experience, and if was forced to make a ruling however, it would be that the entire battle is re-rolled.
Based on these points:
A. If the Germans had rolled 6 hits instead of 2, and the allies had actually wanted to scramble, the allies would be well within their right to demand a reroll of the entire battle.
B. Just because we now “see” an chance to nuke a few extra german aircraft, doesn’t mean that one can opportunistically scramble.
C. Keeping “some” dice in a battle, and adding others, is a slippery slope, and should always be avoided.
D. The decision to scramble, comes BEFORE dice are rolled, and by forcing the entire battle to be rerolled, the allies who were “denied” their right to scramble, are now properly faced with the exactly same choice they would have been given prior to the battle, (This prevents the game from being skewed).
E. I don’t believe the allies would have scrambled. But of course… feel free to scramble, and reroll the entire battle if I am wrong. -
That said.
No more “Assumptions” should be made. That’s the big problem here.
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Also…
In the future, “assumptions” will leave the attacker at the “mercy” of the defender. I will say, it’s kind of bold to give you a freebie. It’s not a big deal to wait an hour or two for choices to be posted.
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Here is the relevant text, in black and white, and as exact as can be. Listen guys, i’m not trying to be a jerk. I’m trying to protect both teams from having a great game go sour over a dispute that can so easily be avoided.
rgp can speak for himself of course ~ but you made the initial mistake, allweneed, and generally when you make a decision for an opponent and roll dice, you must shoulder the burden of accepting whatever the defender chooses, therefore you do not get to reroll dice. dice as rolled should always stand unless there was something illegal done. you hit the cruiser, and the cruiser hit you back. you made it sound like if he would have put his sub in the battle you would allow him to roll for it (a gentlemanly move, or so i thought). in reality, it was a no brainer to have the sub in the battle - and since you are normally a reasonable person and a good sport, i find it hard to believe you would even consider it reasonable to reroll the entire battle given the circumstances.
the funny thing is, the sub didn’t even hit! i could see if the sub hit, you having more desire to reroll the battle since you would have lost an aircraft, but STILL, given the circumstances, that would have been your tough luck since you opened yourself up to the possibility. the allies are in a tough position here allweneed - they need to take some chances - it’s not fair for you to try to take those opportunities away from them by making assumptions, and then on top of it, try to take away the hit they DID get. geez, you are RUTHLESS MAN!!!
actually hank, while your logic may seem reasonable, it does not take into account a very important fact - the attacking player did not wait for an answer on the submerge or not submerge. therefore, rolled dice stand and the defender has the right to roll the sub or not. this is customary and correct when all is taken into account. rolled dice should always stand when there is not an illegal move.
magine this scenario hank and love, and you will see where you logic immediately breaks down in a similar (not exactly the same) example. you attack a sea zone that has a lone destroyer and an airbase with 3 fighters that can scramble. you attack with 5 ftr, tac, and a sub. you make the choice for your opponent that he will not scramble. you roll the battle and you whiff in the first round and he hits. you whiff in the second round and he hits. unlikely i know, but stuff like this happens to me all the time. now what? your attack against his 4 units (if full scramble) was 91% with 3 units remaining… but if he’s behind, he may take the chance of getting lucky!
now you say, well, if you want to scramble the entire battle has to be rerolled? i don’t think so. now, you could argue that you should not have to continue after round 1, but even that is an argument i would not want to pursue if i was in the attacker’s position.
or put another way, what if his cruiser had hit in this case and you had whiffed in the first round? his cruiser hits and you lose the sub. you roll again, miss again, and his cruiser hits again. you roll again and finally hit him and the cruiser hits again. then he says, hold on, i would have rolled my sub in the first round. and you say…? well, the let’s reroll the battle. nope it don’t work like that.
cheers
sorry that first example was a little off, it was 99% with 4 units remaining for the attacker - sorry!
you may think i’m belaboring the point, but i’m saying these things because IF you beat atlanta and face us, i don’t want anything like this happening. plus, during a tournament game, i tend to check into the boards from my phone every hour or so at least. so any answer you need will be very quick. but if you ever proceed with a battle not asking for a scramble, intercept, submerge, casualty choice, etc and dice are rolled, be prepared to keep those dice and if i want to retroactively change my casualty choice or roll for a sub, or scramble or intercept, i don’t want to hear some argument for how the entire battle should be rerolled. of course it goes both ways.
cheers
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SO, if you want to roll the dice first, i will not later say to you - hang on, i want to scramble, so you have to reroll the entire battle. NO! if i want to scramble, your dice will stand. period. make sense?
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bottom line, i stated it as clearly as could possibly be stated in the atlanta axis game thread at that time. so what i am doing is giving you ONE FREE PASS on the issue and giving you credit for not having read it or understood it.
so, roll away if you want rather than wait for our decisions, but it’s at your own risk - and the results could be PUNITIVE.
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again, i can offer you this thought if you really really really feel like i am being a stickler for no good reason. you can leave the relevant battle for last and tell me to roll it out if you want, if you are so sure i will not scramble, etc. but if you make an assumption and roll dice, those dice will STAND no matter what. the only thing that will negate a rolled dice is if you have a unit attacking somewhere it could not possibly reach according to the rules.
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this includes bombing runs. if you send 4 bombers at moscow and i have 2 possible interceptors, and you assume no scramble and have 2 bombers shot down by AA, i can retroactively scramble my fighters and if one of my ftrs hits you, you will be bombing moscow with only 1 bomber. which of the two dice you rolled for bombing can be determined by taking the FIRST dice. the bomber(s) shot down by interceptors will be assumed to be the damaged rolls moving from right to left.
i think when you realize how punitive this can be, you will decide that waiting a few minutes for our decision is preferable.
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OK, couple of points here.
1. You posting your personal preferences in a game you are not a participant in does not make policy.
2. You not liking something, does not make policy.
3. This is something we should have addressed BEFORE starting this game. We didn’t, so let’s figure it out now.A simple solution for all of us going forward is this:
1. Post every combat turn regardless of the complexity of combats.
2. Attacker states any battle that could have scrambles, interceptors or ool involved.
3. Defender gives their order(s) and the attacks can proceed.If anyone thinks there is a way to game the defenders by this then we could do it battle by battle. I would prefer not to do this as I don’t like leaving an active combat turn running on my computer if it may be hours until I return to it. I have been burned by this in the past and it is annoying! But if that’s the consensus then so be it.
Sorry for the lists, the teacher in me can’t seem to avoid it!
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i agree to the solution. to be clear, we will be posting the combat move prior to rolling regardless of whether there are decisions needed from the defender. i completely agree for reasons i do not need to go into because we have already agreed that it will be done this way.
now, if there are no dice to be rolled, a combat move need not be posted, obviously.
cheers
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OK, couple of points here.
1. You posting your personal preferences in a game you are not a participant in does not make policy.
2. You not liking something, does not make policy.
3. This is something we should have addressed BEFORE starting this game. We didn’t, so let’s figure it out now.A simple solution for all of us going forward is this:
1. Post every combat turn regardless of the complexity of combats.
2. Attacker states any battle that could have scrambles, interceptors or ool involved.
3. Defender gives their order(s) and the attacks can proceed.If anyone thinks there is a way to game the defenders by this then we could do it battle by battle. I would prefer not to do this as I don’t like leaving an active combat turn running on my computer if it may be hours until I return to it. I have been burned by this in the past and it is annoying! But if that’s the consensus then so be it.
Sorry for the lists, the teacher in me can’t seem to avoid it!
to address your points in your first 1-3 list hank, i was not saying they were policy - i said it more to the point that if you read the posts, you can see that i do not consider not asking for a scramble choice to be an “illegal” move. thus allweneed’s point that what he did was “illegal” and we agreed with an illegal move to go back to reroll the entire battle - is not applicable. but i already said i’m extending the freebie here, i just want to make sure it never happens again.
it’s all good boys, i just want to keep everything moving smoothly! you may or may not be aware that decisions of this nature can have a major impact on the game - but if we do what we have agreed, we will not have a problem, and it will likely cost us very little time at all.
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Also…
In the future, “assumptions” will leave the attacker at the “mercy” of the defender. I will say, it’s kind of bold to give you a freebie. It’s not a big deal to wait an hour or two for choices to be posted.
and to be clear, this IS now policy. because Gargantua has RULED.
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hank, are you working today? i am ready to post russia, but i’m gonna wait till later today since you likely cannot post till 5 or 6 pm anyway.
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If anyone thinks there is a way to game the defenders by this then we could do it battle by battle. I would prefer not to do this as I don’t like leaving an active combat turn running on my computer if it may be hours until I return to it. I have been burned by this in the past and it is annoying! But if that’s the consensus then so be it.
i’m not sure what you are referring to here. if you post the combat move and then get the orders from the defender, there should be no other reason to wait before completing the move. the only other decision you may need is a casualty choice. and of course, you should also wait for casualty choice or be prepared to allow a retroactive casualty choice and NO REROLLED DICE. if i say i would have kept a bomber, then the bomber roll would be the very first dice rolled instead of the two’s (or whatever) you kept for me instead.
so, to be clear again: if you attack with 2 inf, 2 ftr, 2 tac and i have 2 bom, 2 inf. you hit once in round 1 and take off my bomber. i hit once in defense. round 2 you whiff on attack and take off my bomber and i roll a 2 for the bomber and a 1, 2 for the “infantry”. round 3 you whiff and i roll another 2 for the bomber and 3, 2 for the “infanty”. then round 4 you hit me once and i roll a 1 for the bomber and a 1, 3 for the “infantry”.
so, you are wiped out and i am left with 2 units - in your mind “infantry”. i can say that no, those two units are bombers. clear enough?
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i’m not sure what you are referring to here. if you post the combat move and then get the orders from the defender, there should be no other reason to wait before completing the move. the only other decision you may need is a casualty choice. and of course, you should also wait for casualty choice or be prepared to allow a retroactive casualty choice and NO REROLLED DICE. if i say i would have kept a bomber, then the bomber roll would be the very first dice rolled instead of the two’s (or whatever) you kept for me instead.
What I am saying is that I don’t want to start a combat turn, pause to ask for scramble orders, roll one round, pause again to ask for your casualties, roll the second round, pause for casualties and so on. This can be the case for major game-changing battles, but it has caused me headaches in the past due to having to leave an active combat turn open on my computer for an extended period of time.
I would rather have the defender state all scramble orders, intercepts and ools before any dice are rolled.
Otherwise the only solution I can see is to only roll dice when one of you is online and can respond immediately (as in within minutes not hours).
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hank, are you working today? i am ready to post russia, but i’m gonna wait till later today since you likely cannot post till 5 or 6 pm anyway.
The sooner you post the better. I will be able to get my turn out tonight.
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ok here’s the deal. we do not provide always provide OOL’s prior to a battle being rolled, for obvious reasons. generally dutch or myself will be checking in every half hour or less during the day, starting from about 7-8am CST through 11-12pm cst. so be prepared to wait for casualty choices or else allow retroactive changes to the casualties. you can ask when you post the turn if there are any battles where we can provide ool’s but if you have to ask the question, the answer is probably that there are battles where we will not provide you an ool prior to you rolling any dice.
as to posting the combat move in all cases if there are dice to be rolled on the turn, are we in agreement that this will always be done?
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hank, are you working today? i am ready to post russia, but i’m gonna wait till later today since you likely cannot post till 5 or 6 pm anyway.
The sooner you post the better. I will be able to get my turn out tonight.
i have my move done, just waiting for dutch to get done with his workday to review it before i post. you never know, i could possibly make a mistake that he might catch.
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