Bottom line if there was no sub and cruiser involved in the battle that would be a little different (u could say roll it before ussr if u want to) but you rolled dice man and the dice always stand unless the move is illegal.
Tell u what love. In a show of good faith I will let this go and give u credit for not understanding the terminology. But for future reference what u did was not illegal and the dice should stand. If u want to assume no scramble and roll no dice that is fine. But all other dice in your round will stand in that case… I dont want to hear u say something like “ok if u want to scramble I will reroll ALL the battles”. Come on man it takes only a minute or two to ask.
Another option for u in a case like this is roll all other battles and noncom your planes as though I didnt scramble then tell me to roll the dice before ussr. That would be perfectly fine.
If u r so certain I am not going to scramble then this makes good sense. And of coursw if I dis you could then take over the move again and redo your noncom. But NO more of this rolling then saying u will go back and reroll if I want to scramble. Ok?
Please acknowledge that u understand that not asking for a casualty choice, scramble, intercept etc does NOT constitute an illegal move. Illegal means impossible but allowed by tripleA in error.
Boy do I love waking up to AA conflict!
Alright, here’s my attempt at resolving this. (Please read the entire post before responding)
1. This specific scrambling decision
Collectively I believe the 4 of us have played over 100 games this year alone. In that time we have all developed ways in which to speed up games. Not asking for obvious scramble (where defeat is certain) is one such way. Without having actually walked through the combat on triplea, this is what I believe has happened here.
This is certainly a mistake by my partner and constitutes an illegal move The rulebook clearly states that a scramble decision must be made prior to dice being rolled. Now, what to do with illegal moves / not asking for scramble decision.
2. What to do with illegal moves / not asking for scramble decision
There is no scenario in the Axis and Allies rulebook where either an attacker or defender gets to make a decision after gaining knowledge of the dice rolls. In other words, dice rolls always happen last. There are no caveats for punishing players for making mistakes or illegal moves.
3. We Need to Make a Table Rule
We need to make a table rule about how we are going to handle mistakes / illegal moves. Obviously our team’s preference is to re-roll any combat rolls from the beginning (not the entire turn, just single combats where the issue has arisen).
If your team does not agree with that, then let’s discuss making a table rule with the caveat that if you would like to re-roll the conflicted attack in question it must be re-rolled from the beginning. Any table rules we make will be applied from R2 onwards.
I hope this makes sense and we can discuss this reasonably.
Sighhhhhhhh. I will go back to the atlanta axis game and pull the directly relevant text. And I am saying, lets clarify the term illegal. I do not define illegal as you do. I do not want to reroll dice in a situation like this. There are many reasons that I want to be asked about scramble BEFORE the dice are rolled… trustme there are some. And your solution of lets just reroll the battle Iis NOT cool with me. Listen guys, I check in all the time during a tourney. It is not like we are halfway around the world and sleeping for many hours while u are awake. And We both wake up early.
From now on stop and ask when there are naval units involved. I am still considwring having this entire battle rerolled, so that tells me allweneed made a doubly bad decision. I say doubly bad because it is not obvious, it is merely borderline. I said early on when in doubt ask. And that I am on all the time. And u will soon see again what I wrote in your antlant game directly addressing a case like this.
This ia the final. I think you said before, we have bewn playing for over a year and here we r at the end. What is a few extra seconds, minutes, hours? Lets play a clean game… we r not the ancients. We r the OPPOSITE of the ancients as it relates to game speed (and most everything else). So chill out and ask from now on or be preparwd to abide by the statements I am about to repost from your atlanta game.
This game is going to be tight and I am going to do some things that will surprise you. So stop it already with the scramble assumptions. I can see the next thing coming… u make a casualty choice like take off a bomber first on my defense somewhere or a destroyer in a naval battle. Then when I say I would have done it a different way u say it was “illegal” for u to choose my casualty and so we must go back to where u made the choice and reroll. No way. And this is also covered by what I am about to post from your atlanta game. Im very surprised u guys are in the final and I am having to cover such elementary topics. Come on dudes.
Boldfresh reminds me of my brother…
It sounds like you guys are moving forward on this issue. So I won’t make a ruling.
In my experience, and if was forced to make a ruling however, it would be that the entire battle is re-rolled.
Based on these points:
A. If the Germans had rolled 6 hits instead of 2, and the allies had actually wanted to scramble, the allies would be well within their right to demand a reroll of the entire battle.
B. Just because we now “see” an chance to nuke a few extra german aircraft, doesn’t mean that one can opportunistically scramble.
C. Keeping “some” dice in a battle, and adding others, is a slippery slope, and should always be avoided.
D. The decision to scramble, comes BEFORE dice are rolled, and by forcing the entire battle to be rerolled, the allies who were “denied” their right to scramble, are now properly faced with the exactly same choice they would have been given prior to the battle, (This prevents the game from being skewed).
E. I don’t believe the allies would have scrambled. But of course… feel free to scramble, and reroll the entire battle if I am wrong.
That said.
No more “Assumptions” should be made. That’s the big problem here.
Also…
In the future, “assumptions” will leave the attacker at the “mercy” of the defender. I will say, it’s kind of bold to give you a freebie. It’s not a big deal to wait an hour or two for choices to be posted.
Here is the relevant text, in black and white, and as exact as can be. Listen guys, i’m not trying to be a jerk. I’m trying to protect both teams from having a great game go sour over a dispute that can so easily be avoided.
rgp can speak for himself of course ~ but you made the initial mistake, allweneed, and generally when you make a decision for an opponent and roll dice, you must shoulder the burden of accepting whatever the defender chooses, therefore you do not get to reroll dice. dice as rolled should always stand unless there was something illegal done. you hit the cruiser, and the cruiser hit you back. you made it sound like if he would have put his sub in the battle you would allow him to roll for it (a gentlemanly move, or so i thought). in reality, it was a no brainer to have the sub in the battle - and since you are normally a reasonable person and a good sport, i find it hard to believe you would even consider it reasonable to reroll the entire battle given the circumstances.
the funny thing is, the sub didn’t even hit! i could see if the sub hit, you having more desire to reroll the battle since you would have lost an aircraft, but STILL, given the circumstances, that would have been your tough luck since you opened yourself up to the possibility. the allies are in a tough position here allweneed - they need to take some chances - it’s not fair for you to try to take those opportunities away from them by making assumptions, and then on top of it, try to take away the hit they DID get. geez, you are RUTHLESS MAN!!!
actually hank, while your logic may seem reasonable, it does not take into account a very important fact - the attacking player did not wait for an answer on the submerge or not submerge. therefore, rolled dice stand and the defender has the right to roll the sub or not. this is customary and correct when all is taken into account. rolled dice should always stand when there is not an illegal move.
magine this scenario hank and love, and you will see where you logic immediately breaks down in a similar (not exactly the same) example. you attack a sea zone that has a lone destroyer and an airbase with 3 fighters that can scramble. you attack with 5 ftr, tac, and a sub. you make the choice for your opponent that he will not scramble. you roll the battle and you whiff in the first round and he hits. you whiff in the second round and he hits. unlikely i know, but stuff like this happens to me all the time. now what? your attack against his 4 units (if full scramble) was 91% with 3 units remaining… but if he’s behind, he may take the chance of getting lucky!
now you say, well, if you want to scramble the entire battle has to be rerolled? i don’t think so. now, you could argue that you should not have to continue after round 1, but even that is an argument i would not want to pursue if i was in the attacker’s position.
or put another way, what if his cruiser had hit in this case and you had whiffed in the first round? his cruiser hits and you lose the sub. you roll again, miss again, and his cruiser hits again. you roll again and finally hit him and the cruiser hits again. then he says, hold on, i would have rolled my sub in the first round. and you say…? well, the let’s reroll the battle. nope it don’t work like that.
cheers
sorry that first example was a little off, it was 99% with 4 units remaining for the attacker - sorry!
you may think i’m belaboring the point, but i’m saying these things because IF you beat atlanta and face us, i don’t want anything like this happening. plus, during a tournament game, i tend to check into the boards from my phone every hour or so at least. so any answer you need will be very quick. but if you ever proceed with a battle not asking for a scramble, intercept, submerge, casualty choice, etc and dice are rolled, be prepared to keep those dice and if i want to retroactively change my casualty choice or roll for a sub, or scramble or intercept, i don’t want to hear some argument for how the entire battle should be rerolled. of course it goes both ways.
cheers
SO, if you want to roll the dice first, i will not later say to you - hang on, i want to scramble, so you have to reroll the entire battle. NO! if i want to scramble, your dice will stand. period. make sense?
bottom line, i stated it as clearly as could possibly be stated in the atlanta axis game thread at that time. so what i am doing is giving you ONE FREE PASS on the issue and giving you credit for not having read it or understood it.
so, roll away if you want rather than wait for our decisions, but it’s at your own risk - and the results could be PUNITIVE.
again, i can offer you this thought if you really really really feel like i am being a stickler for no good reason. you can leave the relevant battle for last and tell me to roll it out if you want, if you are so sure i will not scramble, etc. but if you make an assumption and roll dice, those dice will STAND no matter what. the only thing that will negate a rolled dice is if you have a unit attacking somewhere it could not possibly reach according to the rules.
this includes bombing runs. if you send 4 bombers at moscow and i have 2 possible interceptors, and you assume no scramble and have 2 bombers shot down by AA, i can retroactively scramble my fighters and if one of my ftrs hits you, you will be bombing moscow with only 1 bomber. which of the two dice you rolled for bombing can be determined by taking the FIRST dice. the bomber(s) shot down by interceptors will be assumed to be the damaged rolls moving from right to left.
i think when you realize how punitive this can be, you will decide that waiting a few minutes for our decision is preferable.
OK, couple of points here.
1. You posting your personal preferences in a game you are not a participant in does not make policy.
2. You not liking something, does not make policy.
3. This is something we should have addressed BEFORE starting this game. We didn’t, so let’s figure it out now.
A simple solution for all of us going forward is this:
1. Post every combat turn regardless of the complexity of combats.
2. Attacker states any battle that could have scrambles, interceptors or ool involved.
3. Defender gives their order(s) and the attacks can proceed.
If anyone thinks there is a way to game the defenders by this then we could do it battle by battle. I would prefer not to do this as I don’t like leaving an active combat turn running on my computer if it may be hours until I return to it. I have been burned by this in the past and it is annoying! But if that’s the consensus then so be it.
Sorry for the lists, the teacher in me can’t seem to avoid it!
i agree to the solution. to be clear, we will be posting the combat move prior to rolling regardless of whether there are decisions needed from the defender. i completely agree for reasons i do not need to go into because we have already agreed that it will be done this way.
now, if there are no dice to be rolled, a combat move need not be posted, obviously.
cheers
