XDAP Final… eh, i mean, Semifinal - Allweneedishank vs. TeamBoldDutch

[boldfresh]

Quote from: Boldfresh on Today at 04:33:02 pm
why don’t we say one each.� once we have each used one, either team can propose the creation of a second.� if the other team ratifies we can proceed ad nauseam.� if the other team refuses, then a coin flip can decide if the new round of LL rerolls will be allowed.� always 1 for 1 though of course and if the other team never uses theirs, there is only 1 in the entire game.� what do you think?
i do not like the coin flip idea but like the rest. please let me know if the following is ok with boldutch.

once both sides have used one lowluck reroll both sides immediately get one additional lowluck reroll. this process of one additional lowluck roll continues for the entire game.

i would like to propose the following for the attacker, please let me know if boldutch agrees.
the attacker must throw their challenge flag immediately after the battle that they would like the reroll and before any other battles are rolled.

i am fine with both of these.  unless of course after the second team uses their reroll both teams decide we don’t want any more rerolls.  :-P

[boldfresh]

i liked the coinflip because it spices it up.  and if the coinflip ever comes up negative, then there are no more rerolls for the game.  let me know what your concern would be with this?

[boldfresh]

bottom line, i think the rerolls are very likely to be saved by axis for major capital attacks - london, moscow, calcutta.  and by allies for defense of the same.

[allweneedislove]

@Boldfresh:

i am in the middle of reviewing your post.  couple questions with this one…

when you cay that the challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit, what do you mean?

let’s take an extreme example and say i have (5) infantry attacking (5) bombers.  (neither) side is guaranteed one hit only.  does this mean this battle could not have the LL challenge flag thrown it it by the attacker or defender?

correct. as neither side is gauranteed a hit in lowluck, no challenge flag can be thrown by either side. the reason for this is no matter what the result is using regular dice you can get the same result with lowluck.

@Boldfresh:

i should say i have NEVER played lowluck so i may not understand it completely. i do not know what you mean by **i would like a caveat added on to that where you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.

the distinction is made in between dogfights/aaguns and all other battles is that dogfights/aaguns is only one round of combat.

for example 5infantry attack 5 bombers. attacker wins this battle with 4 infantry remaining. this battle can not be challenged as this same result can be achieved in lowluck.

for example 5 bombers are intercepted by 5 fighters. attacker kills all 5 fighters and has 4 bombers survive. this battle can be challenged as you can not have 5 fighters killed in lowluck as only one round is rolled.

@Boldfresh:

as i understand it, a LL roll takes the attacking pips divided by 6 and that is the number of hits.  any remainder (5, 4, 3, 2, or 1) results in a single 6 sided die that gives another hit if the die roll is the same as or lower than the remainder…

correct

@Boldfresh:

…what i think you are saying is that you are agreeing that if a single tac attacks a base and the aa hits, the challenge flag cannot be thrown on that battle, and i would agree.

excellent we have consensus

@Boldfresh:

…i guess each facility being attacked should be treated as a separate battle and each sea battle before an amphibious assault should be treated as a separate battle.  then the things you are saying would make sense (as to an immediate challenge flag without rolling the rest of the battles)…

again we have consensus

@Boldfresh:

…so the way i see it, the ideal is to avoid your 1-6 completely by stopping after the z98 result to ask if a challenge flag will be thrown.  we all should know what a significant battle is by now, and when we think it might be close - stop and ask.  as we said, we have been playing this tournament for over a year and here we are in the FINALS so if it takes us a few extra minutes, hours, or a day to get answers so be it.  at least we can start this way and see how it goes.

i would rather have rule agreed upon now than have a dispute after the fact.

the problem is what may seem like a minor battle to the attacker could actually be a huge battle in the defenders mind, but the attacker does not know it. so i could make an attack and not realize that it stops all your plans. in this case you would want to throw a challenge flag, but i did not see your master plan and did not know it was that important to you so i did not ask.

@Boldfresh:

Quote from: Boldfresh on Today at 04:33:02 pm
why don’t we say one each.� once we have each used one, either team can propose the creation of a second.� if the other team ratifies we can proceed ad nauseam.� if the other team refuses, then a coin flip can decide if the new round of LL rerolls will be allowed.� always 1 for 1 though of course and if the other team never uses theirs, there is only 1 in the entire game.� what do you think?
i do not like the coin flip idea but like the rest. please let me know if the following is ok with boldutch.

once both sides have used one lowluck reroll both sides immediately get one additional lowluck reroll. this process of one additional lowluck roll continues for the entire game.

i would like to propose the following for the attacker, please let me know if boldutch agrees.
the attacker must throw their challenge flag immediately after the battle that they would like the reroll and before any other battles are rolled.

i am fine with both of these.  unless of course after the second team uses their reroll both teams decide we don’t want any more rerolls.  :-P

excellent we have consensus on two more topics. so the default is additional lowluck rolls for the entire game unless BOTH teams decide we don’t want any more rerolls.

@Boldfresh:

bottom line, i think the rerolls are very likely to be saved by axis for major capital attacks - london, moscow, calcutta.  and by allies for defense of the same.

possibly, but i might get diced on germany’s first attack on the uk fleet and use my one reroll on the very first battle of the game.**

[allweneedislove]

consensus in black, red still being discussed.

we will use lowluck mode for the challenge flags.

once both sides have used one lowluck reroll both sides immediately get one additional lowluck reroll. this process of one additional lowluck roll continues for the entire game. after an even number of challenges have been used, lowluck rerolls can be revoked if BOTH teams agree

the attacker must throw their challenge flag immediately after the battle that they would like the reroll and before any other battles are rolled.

challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit.

you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.

defender throws challenge flag

1. attacks before the reroll stay the same
2. attacks after the reroll stay the same, however you could retreat part way through a subsequent attack(and disregard all subsequent dice from that battle) if the information of the lowluck battle would have caused you to retreat.
3. land units that attack after a failed amphibious assault get rerolled in regular dice or lowluck
4. the attacker can make non-combat move/placement edits after the lowluck roll.
5. the allied powers of the attacker can make non-combat move/placement edits after the lowluck roll
6. subsequent allied powers turn’s after a lowluck reroll redo their whole turn or keep their turn

[boldfresh]

@allweneedislove:

consensus in black, red still being discussed.

we will use lowluck mode for the challenge flags.

once both sides have used one lowluck reroll both sides immediately get one additional lowluck reroll. this process of one additional lowluck roll continues for the entire game. after an even number of challenges have been used, lowluck rerolls can be revoked if BOTH teams agree  agreed

the attacker must throw their challenge flag immediately after the battle that they would like the reroll and before any other battles are rolled.

challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit.

you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2. agreed

defender throws challenge flag

1. attacks before the reroll stay the same agreed
2. attacks after the reroll stay the same, however you could retreat part way through a subsequent attack(and disregard all subsequent dice from that battle) if the information of the lowluck battle would have caused you to retreat. very problematic potentially.
3. land units that attack after a failed amphibious assault get rerolled in regular dice or lowluck neither - there should be no reroll necessary.  attacker states that the lucky sea battle was won and asks defender if they want to throw challenge flag.
4. the attacker can make non-combat move/placement edits after the lowluck roll.  yes, but see 3 above
5. the allied powers of the attacker can make non-combat move/placement edits after the lowluck roll  yes, but see 3 above
6. subsequent allied powers turn’s after a lowluck reroll redo their whole turn or keep their turn  yes, but see 3 above

generally, i would think the defender would be able to say “there’s no attack you could make this round that will result in me throwing the challenge flag”.

[boldfresh]

the point i am trying to make, guys, is that there is ONE challenge flag for each team.  it’s not like these things are going to be flying left and right all willie nillie!  the attacker will have a pretty good inclination when the challenge flag might be used.  a little common sense goes a long ways - i think we are all reasonable men here.

[boldfresh]

the silence is deafening!  hey love, are you working on a nonstandard opener?  are we going to see something brand new?  :-D

[allweneedislove]

@Boldfresh:

the point i am trying to make, guys, is that there is ONE challenge flag for each team.  it’s not like these things are going to be flying left and right all willie nillie!  the attacker will have a pretty good inclination when the challenge flag might be used.  a little common sense goes a long ways - i think we are all reasonable men here.

ok so it looks like we agree on everything, but have not hammered out the defender challenge flags.
on attacks we will use our common sense and ask a defender if we think the battle was large enough and dice were poor enough.

GAME ON!

[boldfresh]

yes - remember there is only 1, so i’m almost certain it will be used judiciously.

you posting G1 shortly?

[allweneedislove]

Test summary from TripleA, engine version: 1.7.0.3, time: 12:24:13

[boldfresh]

oh yeah, here it comes!

[allweneedislove]

TripleA Move Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.7

Game History

Round: 1

Purchase Units - Germans
            Germans buy 1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Germans
            1 armour and 1 infantry moved from Romania to Yugoslavia
            1 armour and 2 infantry moved from Slovakia Hungary to Yugoslavia
            1 armour moved from Poland to Yugoslavia
            1 fighter moved from Slovakia Hungary to Yugoslavia
            3 armour moved from Greater Southern Germany to France
            2 artilleries and 6 infantry moved from Greater Southern Germany to Yugoslavia
            3 armour, 2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Holland Belgium to France
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Poland to France
            1 artillery, 3 infantry and 4 mech_infantrys moved from Western Germany to France
            1 submarine moved from 117 Sea Zone to 106 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 118 Sea Zone to 106 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 103 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 108 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 124 Sea Zone to 111 Sea Zone
            1 battleship moved from 113 Sea Zone to 111 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from Norway to 111 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from Holland Belgium to 109 Sea Zone
            2 fighters and 3 tactical_bombers moved from Western Germany to 109 Sea Zone
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Germany to 111 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Germany to 111 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Germany to 109 Sea Zone

[allweneedislove]

would you like to scramble in sz109 and/or sz111?

[boldfresh]

This is under consideration.

[Gargantua]

@Boldfresh:

This is under consideration.

WHAT ARE YOU STALLING FOR?!?!?!

[boldfresh]

@Gargantua:

@Boldfresh:

This is under consideration.

WHAT ARE YOU STALLING FOR?!?!?!

haha, it seems to be the thing all the cool kids are doing.

[boldfresh]

scramble to 111.  no scramble 109.

[boldfresh]

i will be on regularly for ool.

[dutchmand]

@Gargantua:

@Boldfresh:

This is under consideration.

WHAT ARE YOU STALLING FOR?!?!?!

G, the blame is mine. I have 3 trials this month and in the middle of a jury trial now.  Bold was doing the courteous thing and waiting for my input.