we are the proud winners - yay! we will just say that we have sketched the broad strokes of the reroll agreement and if we have a later disagreement, garg can make the call.
Sounds good, although I hope you don’t get used to winning :)
I’m going to play Japan, and Allweneedislove will be Germany. I will let him know we are a go.
Could you post or PM your dice e-mails please?
Good luck and have fun!
who is going to be italy?
our bid is sub to 98 and 2 ipc to london.
will PM you our emails in 10 seconds.
let’s have a great one - as we all know this one is for all the marbles! :-P
why don’t we just keep this thread? we will just keep it to game posts from here on out.
why don’t we just keep this thread? we will just keep it to game posts from here on out.
Perfect!!
Fire when ready
excellent looks like we are almost ready to kick off.
i would like to get the challenge flag lowluck reroll(s?) sorted out before game start.
…now, if we are talking about a simple CHALLENGE FLAG which allows for a full luck reroll, then that is different. i think i prefer the LL version? what do you guys say.
i used gargantua’s terminology of challenge flag, but also want the reroll done in lowluck mode.
so there is consensus and we will use lowluck mode for the challenge flags.
why don’t we say one each.� once we have each used one, either team can propose the creation of a second.� if the other team ratifies we can proceed ad nauseam.� if the other team refuses, then a coin flip can decide if the new round of LL rerolls will be allowed.� always 1 for 1 though of course and if the other team never uses theirs, there is only 1 in the entire game.� what do you think?
i do not like the coin flip idea but like the rest. please let me know if the following is ok with boldutch.
once both sides have used one lowluck reroll both sides immediately get one additional lowluck reroll. this process of one additional lowluck roll continues for the entire game.
i would like to propose the following for the attacker, please let me know if boldutch agrees.
the attacker must throw their challenge flag immediately after the battle that they would like the reroll and before any other battles are rolled.
… how do we do it if there is a big SBR or an amphibious assault. in this case there is a sea battle that precedes the land battle (or multiple land battles) and a possible air battle that precedes possibly multiple AA rolls on multiple targets…
if we use the rule above that the attacker must throw their challenge flag before any other combat rolls we remove the aagun/sbr and amphibious assault problem.
i’m thinking the entire two part scenario has to be rerolled. but for example, if there were 4 bombers attacking an IC and a tac attacking an ab (follow me here) and 4 interceptors went up… the air war resolves as attacker hits once and defender hits 3 times - then in the bombings, the IC hits 2 bombers and hits the tac, i think the LL reroll should already include the following as a given: the tac that was hit by AA is dead because the LL roll could not have possibly changed that. the rest gets rerolled LL. make sense? what i’m saying is, i don’t want any dice that are valid and essentially LL in the first place to be rerolled. if we are talking about lowluck that’s the way i think it should be…
if we use the rule that the attacker needs to throw their challenge flag immediately then we would remove this problem as the intercept/escort dogfight is a separate battle and the attacker would have to decide before strategic bombing raid.
…another observation: if a battle is say, inf and arm against an inf, then it cannot be rerolled as a LL battle because LL would be no different than the original roll. a LL reroll can only be used if the second roll could be different than the first roll if it is rolled LL… kinda tough to explain but this removes little dicey battles from the equation and means this only applies to bigger rolls. we can flesh this one out more but maybe you will understand what i’m saying and we can go from there…
i agree that the challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit.
i would like a caveat added on to that where you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.
do you agree with the caveat?
finally - does the reroll apply to both attacker and defender? ie, can a defender call for the reroll on an attack against them?
i think it is only fair that the defenders can also use a challenge flag(lets say germany attacks moscow and get super lucky, you should be able to throw a challenge flag before you do your ussr turn.)
defenders throwing challenge flags does get tricky as they have to wait until the end of the attackers turn to see if they need to throw the challenge flag.
here is a scenario.
_anzac attack siam, then attack sz98(and get very lucky), then amphibiously assault Italian held egypt from sz98 and from land via trans-jordan, and then caroline islands and wins all 4 battles.
france attacks Italian held Alexandria._
before the german turn axis throw a challenge flag to reroll the sz98 attack. the sz98 battle is rolled in lowluck and the axis win in sz98
how would you like to handle the following?
my suggestions are
…another observation: if a battle is say, inf and arm against an inf, then it cannot be rerolled as a LL battle because LL would be no different than the original roll. a LL reroll can only be used if the second roll could be different than the first roll if it is rolled LL… kinda tough to explain but this removes little dicey battles from the equation and means this only applies to bigger rolls. we can flesh this one out more but maybe you will understand what i’m saying and we can go from there…
i agree that the challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit.
i would like a caveat added on to that where you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.
do you agree with the caveat?
i am in the middle of reviewing your post. couple questions with this one…
when you cay that the challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit, what do you mean?
let’s take an extreme example and say i have 6 infantry attacking 6 bombers. each side is guaranteed one hit only. does this mean this battle could not have the LL challenge flag thrown it it by the attacker or defender?
i should say i have NEVER played lowluck so i may not understand it completely. i do not know what you mean by i would like a caveat added on to that where you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.
…another observation: if a battle is say, inf and arm against an inf, then it cannot be rerolled as a LL battle because LL would be no different than the original roll. a LL reroll can only be used if the second roll could be different than the first roll if it is rolled LL… kinda tough to explain but this removes little dicey battles from the equation and means this only applies to bigger rolls. we can flesh this one out more but maybe you will understand what i’m saying and we can go from there…
i agree that the challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit.
i would like a caveat added on to that where you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.
do you agree with the caveat?i am in the middle of reviewing your post. couple questions with this one…
when you cay that the challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit, what do you mean?
let’s take an extreme example and say i have 6 infantry attacking 6 bombers. each side is guaranteed one hit only. does this mean this battle could not have the LL challenge flag thrown it it by the attacker or defender?
i should say i have NEVER played lowluck so i may not understand it completely. i do not know what you mean by **i would like a caveat added on to that where you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.
sorry, meant to say 5 inf against 5 bombers. neither side is guaranteed one hit. however, one side might get 4 and the other side get none, so a LL reroll would certainly be valid as i see it.**
as i understand it, a LL roll takes the attacking pips divided by 6 and that is the number of hits. any remainder (5, 4, 3, 2, or 1) results in a single 6 sided die that gives another hit if the die roll is the same as or lower than the remainder. what i think you are saying is that you are agreeing that if a single tac attacks a base and the aa hits, the challenge flag cannot be thrown on that battle, and i would agree. i guess each facility being attacked should be treated as a separate battle and each sea battle before an amphibious assault should be treated as a separate battle. then the things you are saying would make sense (as to an immediate challenge flag without rolling the rest of the battles).
here is the only problem i can see with the immediate challenge flag. what if the defender wants to throw the challenge flag on a battle? attacker rolls all the battles, posts the noncom, and then the defender says “hang on! i want to throw the challenge flag on that battle!”
ah, as i now continue to review the post, you are addressing the point of a defender challenge flag - let me continue.
i think it is only fair that the defenders can also use a challenge flag(lets say germany attacks moscow and get super lucky, you should be able to throw a challenge flag before you do your ussr turn.)
defenders throwing challenge flags does get tricky as they have to wait until the end of the attackers turn to see if they need to throw the challenge flag.
here is a scenario.
_anzac attack siam, then attack sz98(and get very lucky), then amphibiously assault Italian held egypt from sz98 and from land via trans-jordan, and then caroline islands and wins all 4 battles.france attacks Italian held Alexandria._
before the german turn axis throw a challenge flag to reroll the sz98 attack. the sz98 battle is rolled in lowluck and the axis win in sz98
how would you like to handle the following?
- do attacks before the sz98 attack stay the same, in this scenario siam
- do attacks after the egypt attack stay the same, in this scenario caroline islands
- does the battle in egypt without the amphibious units get rerolled in regular dice or lowluck
- can the attacker make non-combat move/placement edits after the lowluck roll.
- can the french make non-combat move/placement edits after the lowluck roll.
- does the french attack on Alexandria stick, or do they redo their whole turn
my suggestions are
- attacks before the reroll stay the same
- attacks after the reroll stay the same, however you could retreat part way through a subsequent attack(and disregard all subsequent dice from that battle) if the information of the lowluck battle would have caused you to retreat.
- i am not sure which is better and am open to suggestion.
- yes
- yes
- i am not sure what to do about this as it can have major implications one way or the other. what is your suggestion?
ok, here’s how i see it. i suggested the challenge flag for two reasons. this is the FINAL and i would hate to see one really bad luck battle decide it. and #2 is that we are both on a lot, so there should not be too long between asking and receiving an answer on whether the challenge flag will be thrown by the defender. so the way i see it, the ideal is to avoid your 1-6 completely by stopping after the z98 result to ask if a challenge flag will be thrown. we all should know what a significant battle is by now, and when we think it might be close - stop and ask. as we said, we have been playing this tournament for over a year and here we are in the FINALS so if it takes us a few extra minutes, hours, or a day to get answers so be it. at least we can start this way and see how it goes.
i believe each team will be VERY hesitant to throw the challenge flag, since it could very well be a once in the match only event. so i think we will get quick answers for the most part and should only really have to ask if there is a pretty unique situation like you just mentioned.
i do think that if there are no inter-related issues like the elaborate example you built, the defender can just throw the flag on one battle and all the other battles from the round stand as rolled. if there is something interrelated and the preceding battle is deemed to be fairly significant by the attacker, then the attacker should wait.
of course this could become unwieldy and if it does, we could move to something that has a threshold level at which the defender can throw the flag. not sure what that might be.
however, here’s one thing i want to touch on again - say that z98 battle was des vs. cru and attacker wins. i don’t think the defender should be allowed to throw the challenge flag because a LL roll could not have gone any different.
Quote from: Boldfresh on Today at 04:33:02 pm
why don’t we say one each.� once we have each used one, either team can propose the creation of a second.� if the other team ratifies we can proceed ad nauseam.� if the other team refuses, then a coin flip can decide if the new round of LL rerolls will be allowed.� always 1 for 1 though of course and if the other team never uses theirs, there is only 1 in the entire game.� what do you think?
i do not like the coin flip idea but like the rest. please let me know if the following is ok with boldutch.
once both sides have used one lowluck reroll both sides immediately get one additional lowluck reroll. this process of one additional lowluck roll continues for the entire game.
i would like to propose the following for the attacker, please let me know if boldutch agrees.
the attacker must throw their challenge flag immediately after the battle that they would like the reroll and before any other battles are rolled.
i am fine with both of these. unless of course after the second team uses their reroll both teams decide we don’t want any more rerolls. :-P
i liked the coinflip because it spices it up. and if the coinflip ever comes up negative, then there are no more rerolls for the game. let me know what your concern would be with this?
bottom line, i think the rerolls are very likely to be saved by axis for major capital attacks - london, moscow, calcutta. and by allies for defense of the same.
i am in the middle of reviewing your post. couple questions with this one…
when you cay that the challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit, what do you mean?
let’s take an extreme example and say i have (5) infantry attacking (5) bombers. (neither) side is guaranteed one hit only. does this mean this battle could not have the LL challenge flag thrown it it by the attacker or defender?
correct. as neither side is gauranteed a hit in lowluck, no challenge flag can be thrown by either side. the reason for this is no matter what the result is using regular dice you can get the same result with lowluck.
i should say i have NEVER played lowluck so i may not understand it completely. i do not know what you mean by **i would like a caveat added on to that where you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.
the distinction is made in between dogfights/aaguns and all other battles is that dogfights/aaguns is only one round of combat.
for example 5infantry attack 5 bombers. attacker wins this battle with 4 infantry remaining. this battle can not be challenged as this same result can be achieved in lowluck.
for example 5 bombers are intercepted by 5 fighters. attacker kills all 5 fighters and has 4 bombers survive. this battle can be challenged as you can not have 5 fighters killed in lowluck as only one round is rolled.
as i understand it, a LL roll takes the attacking pips divided by 6 and that is the number of hits. any remainder (5, 4, 3, 2, or 1) results in a single 6 sided die that gives another hit if the die roll is the same as or lower than the remainder…
correct
…what i think you are saying is that you are agreeing that if a single tac attacks a base and the aa hits, the challenge flag cannot be thrown on that battle, and i would agree.
excellent we have consensus
…i guess each facility being attacked should be treated as a separate battle and each sea battle before an amphibious assault should be treated as a separate battle. then the things you are saying would make sense (as to an immediate challenge flag without rolling the rest of the battles)…
again we have consensus
…so the way i see it, the ideal is to avoid your 1-6 completely by stopping after the z98 result to ask if a challenge flag will be thrown. we all should know what a significant battle is by now, and when we think it might be close - stop and ask. as we said, we have been playing this tournament for over a year and here we are in the FINALS so if it takes us a few extra minutes, hours, or a day to get answers so be it. at least we can start this way and see how it goes.
i would rather have rule agreed upon now than have a dispute after the fact.
the problem is what may seem like a minor battle to the attacker could actually be a huge battle in the defenders mind, but the attacker does not know it. so i could make an attack and not realize that it stops all your plans. in this case you would want to throw a challenge flag, but i did not see your master plan and did not know it was that important to you so i did not ask.
Quote from: Boldfresh on Today at 04:33:02 pm
why don’t we say one each.� once we have each used one, either team can propose the creation of a second.� if the other team ratifies we can proceed ad nauseam.� if the other team refuses, then a coin flip can decide if the new round of LL rerolls will be allowed.� always 1 for 1 though of course and if the other team never uses theirs, there is only 1 in the entire game.� what do you think?
i do not like the coin flip idea but like the rest. please let me know if the following is ok with boldutch.once both sides have used one lowluck reroll both sides immediately get one additional lowluck reroll. this process of one additional lowluck roll continues for the entire game.
i would like to propose the following for the attacker, please let me know if boldutch agrees.
the attacker must throw their challenge flag immediately after the battle that they would like the reroll and before any other battles are rolled.i am fine with both of these. unless of course after the second team uses their reroll both teams decide we don’t want any more rerolls. :-P
excellent we have consensus on two more topics. so the default is additional lowluck rolls for the entire game unless BOTH teams decide we don’t want any more rerolls.
bottom line, i think the rerolls are very likely to be saved by axis for major capital attacks - london, moscow, calcutta. and by allies for defense of the same.
possibly, but i might get diced on germany’s first attack on the uk fleet and use my one reroll on the very first battle of the game.**
consensus in black, red still being discussed.
we will use lowluck mode for the challenge flags.
once both sides have used one lowluck reroll both sides immediately get one additional lowluck reroll. this process of one additional lowluck roll continues for the entire game. after an even number of challenges have been used, lowluck rerolls can be revoked if BOTH teams agree
the attacker must throw their challenge flag immediately after the battle that they would like the reroll and before any other battles are rolled.
challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit.
you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.
defender throws challenge flag
consensus in black, red still being discussed.
we will use lowluck mode for the challenge flags.
once both sides have used one lowluck reroll both sides immediately get one additional lowluck reroll. this process of one additional lowluck roll continues for the entire game. after an even number of challenges have been used, lowluck rerolls can be revoked if BOTH teams agree agreed
the attacker must throw their challenge flag immediately after the battle that they would like the reroll and before any other battles are rolled.
challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit.
you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2. agreed
defender throws challenge flag
- attacks before the reroll stay the same agreed
- attacks after the reroll stay the same, however you could retreat part way through a subsequent attack(and disregard all subsequent dice from that battle) if the information of the lowluck battle would have caused you to retreat. very problematic potentially.
- land units that attack after a failed amphibious assault get rerolled in regular dice or lowluck neither - there should be no reroll necessary. attacker states that the lucky sea battle was won and asks defender if they want to throw challenge flag.
- the attacker can make non-combat move/placement edits after the lowluck roll. yes, but see 3 above
- the allied powers of the attacker can make non-combat move/placement edits after the lowluck roll yes, but see 3 above
- subsequent allied powers turn’s after a lowluck reroll redo their whole turn or keep their turn yes, but see 3 above
generally, i would think the defender would be able to say “there’s no attack you could make this round that will result in me throwing the challenge flag”.
the point i am trying to make, guys, is that there is ONE challenge flag for each team. it’s not like these things are going to be flying left and right all willie nillie! the attacker will have a pretty good inclination when the challenge flag might be used. a little common sense goes a long ways - i think we are all reasonable men here.
