@leemorrison that is tillsjeff@outlook.com my keyboard sticks, but I did get the email to try and confirm
XDAP Final… eh, i mean, Semifinal - Allweneedishank vs. TeamBoldDutch
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i have already started the first bid and stated why a typical auction is superior to a reverse auction. instead of accepting or declining you proposed that we use an inferior method of a reverse auction. you have not given a reason why a reverse auction is logical or even ONE advantage of the a reverse auction.
you have stated that the reverse auction� has always been used, but that is not a reason and a major deterrent to progress.
Stall stall stall
to prevent you from stalling this any longer and to prevent this sure to be fun game from getting off on the wrong foot. i will use your preferred method of inferior bidding system. but before we proceed with the friendly game i will be an ass and hammer home the point of why this method is flawed.
we will decline your offer. we will counter with the offer of us taking the axis +500ipc.
you can now accept and the game commences. or you can decline and lower the bid.i also like your idea of starting a new thread once the game commences. this thread will still be useful for referencing the rules we have agreed to and our game thread can be kept on topic and clean.
We have been bidding that way all year long in the league and it works just fine.� Hold off on the jedi mind tricks until g1 has at least been posted� :roll:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lFkP1so6mE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI-JC6w_EqcBidding down is the way it has always been done on A&A.org…. and I am pretty sure the way it has been done this entire tournament.
It is not an “opposite bid”.� You are saying “I will take the Allies if you give me ‘X’ to spend with the Allies prior to the open”.� The other side says, “No, I will take the Allies if you give me Y to spend with the Allies prior to the open.” etc., etc.� That is a bid, because the process assumes a disadvantage for the Allies. Not all auctions bid up.� For example, some mortgage auctions bid down due to a certain encumbrace or deficiency/liability of the property.
our games have used an ordinary auction bid. i have done some looking and see that there are rare auctions that are reverse auction.
do you think a reverse auction makes more sense for axis and allies? if so please explain.
to recap i will give some of the reasons why ordinary auctions make the most sense
- if both opponents feel one side is stronger than NO bid is needed and we both get the side we want
- it is quicker and more efficient.
- there is no consensus as to which side is favoured.(there have been league games with experienced opponents that had allies as favoured side. there has also been an xdap game that had a bid for the axis.)
- the game will be as close to original setup as bids will be the smallest ipc that either side thinks is fair. reverse auctions have bids that are the largest ipc that either side thinks is fair.
these are just the ones that came to my mind there might be more.
i am central time zone, dutch is mountain standard time
you probably missed it in all the posts but what i said was, this is how it is done on axisandallies.org and how it is done in the league, the league you have played 20+ games in. why does what the original setup is matter at all? we bid, we place we play. bidding is just a fun and fair way to choose sides.
let’s ROCK
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i have already started the first bid and stated why a typical auction is superior to a reverse auction. instead of accepting or declining you proposed that we use an inferior method of a reverse auction. you have not given a reason why a reverse auction is logical or even ONE advantage of the a reverse auction.
you have stated that the reverse auction� has always been used, but that is not a reason and a major deterrent to progress.
Stall stall stall
to prevent you from stalling this any longer and to prevent this sure to be fun game from getting off on the wrong foot. i will use your preferred method of inferior bidding system. but before we proceed with the friendly game i will be an ass and hammer home the point of why this method is flawed.
we will decline your offer. we will counter with the offer of us taking the axis +500ipc.
you can now accept and the game commences. or you can decline and lower the bid.i also like your idea of starting a new thread once the game commences. this thread will still be useful for referencing the rules we have agreed to and our game thread can be kept on topic and clean.
We have been bidding that way all year long in the league and it works just fine.� Hold off on the jedi mind tricks until g1 has at least been posted� :roll:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lFkP1so6mE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI-JC6w_EqcBidding down is the way it has always been done on A&A.org…. and I am pretty sure the way it has been done this entire tournament.
It is not an “opposite bid”.� You are saying “I will take the Allies if you give me ‘X’ to spend with the Allies prior to the open”.� The other side says, “No, I will take the Allies if you give me Y to spend with the Allies prior to the open.” etc., etc.� That is a bid, because the process assumes a disadvantage for the Allies. Not all auctions bid up.� For example, some mortgage auctions bid down due to a certain encumbrace or deficiency/liability of the property.
our games have used an ordinary auction bid. i have done some looking and see that there are rare auctions that are reverse auction.
do you think a reverse auction makes more sense for axis and allies? if so please explain.
to recap i will give some of the reasons why ordinary auctions make the most sense
- if both opponents feel one side is stronger than NO bid is needed and we both get the side we want
- it is quicker and more efficient.
- there is no consensus as to which side is favoured.(there have been league games with experienced opponents that had allies as favoured side. there has also been an xdap game that had a bid for the axis.)
- the game will be as close to original setup as bids will be the smallest ipc that either side thinks is fair. reverse auctions have bids that are the largest ipc that either side thinks is fair.
these are just the ones that came to my mind there might be more.
i am central time zone, dutch is mountain standard time
you probably missed it in all the posts but what i said was, this is how it is done on axisandallies.org and how it is done in the league, the league you have played 20+ games in. why does what the original setup is matter at all? we bid, we place we play. bidding is just a fun and fair way to choose sides.
let’s ROCK
So would you like to counter our bid, or are we the allies?
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oops sorry i just saw hank’s reply lol
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I haven’t read my partner’s post (there are a lot of words), but I believe he is saying we will bid, you can then counter with a lower bid or accept and start the game.
Our real bid is: Allies, Russian bomber + 9 IPCs
Additional answers:
– no tech– we are willingly to say yes to low-luck re-rolls for offensive or defensive rolls at no cost.
- the entire battle must be re-rolled
- how many re-rolls do you want - 1,2 or 3, per team? It doesn’t matter to us.why don’t we say one each. once we have each used one, either team can propose the creation of a second. if the other team ratifies we can proceed ad nauseam. if the other team refuses, then a coin flip can decide if the new round of LL rerolls will be allowed. always 1 for 1 though of course and if the other team never uses theirs, there is only 1 in the entire game. what do you think?
so placement is per league rules except for 1 unit per territory limit right?
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why don’t we say one each. once we have each used one, either team can propose the creation of a second. if the other team ratifies we can proceed ad nauseam. if the other team refuses, then a coin flip can decide if the new round of LL rerolls will be allowed. always 1 for 1 though of course and if the other team never uses theirs, there is only 1 in the entire game. what do you think?
Yep, sounds fine.
so placement is per league rules except for 1 unit per territory limit right?
Agreed. (Just to clarify - 1 unit/territory; placement must go into a territory owned by that power; water units must be placed where there are existing water units).
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I haven’t read my partner’s post (there are a lot of words), but I believe he is saying we will bid, you can then counter with a lower bid or accept and start the game.
Our real bid is: Allies, Russian bomber + 9 IPCs
Additional answers:
– no tech– we are willingly to say yes to low-luck re-rolls for offensive or defensive rolls at no cost.
� � � �- the entire battle must be re-rolled
� � � �- how many re-rolls do you want - 1,2 or 3, per team? It doesn’t matter to us.why don’t we say one each.� once we have each used one, either team can propose the creation of a second.� if the other team ratifies we can proceed ad nauseam.� if the other team refuses, then a coin flip can decide if the new round of LL rerolls will be allowed.� always 1 for 1 though of course and if the other team never uses theirs, there is only 1 in the entire game.� what do you think?
so placement is per league rules except for 1 unit per territory limit right?
oh and the extension to another round of rerolls must occur right after the second team to use their LL reroll occurs. something to consider… how do we do it if there is a big SBR or an amphibious assault. in this case there is a sea battle that precedes the land battle (or multiple land battles) and a possible air battle that precedes possibly multiple AA rolls on multiple targets.
another observation: if a battle is say, inf and arm against an inf, then it cannot be rerolled as a LL battle because LL would be no different than the original roll. a LL reroll can only be used if the second roll could be different than the first roll if it is rolled LL… kinda tough to explain but this removes little dicey battles from the equation and means this only applies to bigger rolls. we can flesh this one out more but maybe you will understand what i’m saying and we can go from there.
finally - does the reroll apply to both attacker and defender? ie, can a defender call for the reroll on an attack against them?
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why don’t we say one each. once we have each used one, either team can propose the creation of a second. if the other team ratifies we can proceed ad nauseam. if the other team refuses, then a coin flip can decide if the new round of LL rerolls will be allowed. always 1 for 1 though of course and if the other team never uses theirs, there is only 1 in the entire game. what do you think?
Yep, sounds fine.
so placement is per league rules except for 1 unit per territory limit right?
Agreed. (Just to clarify - 1 unit/territory; placement must go into a territory owned by that power; water units must be placed where there are existing water units).
agreed.
let me know your answer on if the defender can call for the reroll of an attackers battle and also what you think of the sbr and amph assault scenarios. i’m thinking the entire two part scenario has to be rerolled. but for example, if there were 4 bombers attacking an IC and a tac attacking an ab (follow me here) and 4 interceptors went up… the air war resolves as attacker hits once and defender hits 3 times - then in the bombings, the IC hits 2 bombers and hits the tac, i think the LL reroll should already include the following as a given: the tac that was hit by AA is dead because the LL roll could not have possibly changed that. the rest gets rerolled LL. make sense? what i’m saying is, i don’t want any dice that are valid and essentially LL in the first place to be rerolled. if we are talking about lowluck that’s the way i think it should be. now, if we are talking about a simple CHALLENGE FLAG which allows for a full luck reroll, then that is different. i think i prefer the LL version? what do you guys say.
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TeamBoldDutch respectfully submits a bid of bomber + 8 IPC.
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oh and the extension to another round of rerolls must occur right after the second team to use their LL reroll occurs. something to consider… how do we do it if there is a big SBR or an amphibious assault. in this case there is a sea battle that precedes the land battle (or multiple land battles) and a possible air battle that precedes possibly multiple AA rolls on multiple targets.
I think you pick which battle you would like to re-roll. It is very possible (although hopefully unlikely) to have multiple battles in one turn go bad for you. This could be an argument to start with more than one re-roll.
another observation: if a battle is say, inf and arm against an inf, then it cannot be rerolled as a LL battle because LL would be no different than the original roll. a LL reroll can only be used if the second roll could be different than the first roll if it is rolled LL…. kinda tough to explain but this removes little dicey battles from the equation and means this only applies to bigger rolls. we can flesh this one out more but maybe you will understand what i’m saying and we can go from there.
I don’t think we need to set specific limits on using the re-roll. If your team wants to use it on a battle whose results won’t change in Low luck then go for it :)
finally - does the reroll apply to both attacker and defender? ie, can a defender call for the reroll on an attack against them?
Yes, we think you should be able to use the re-roll as either the attacker or defender.
Sound OK?
Allies +8 for you is the winning bid! Congratulations, that only took 6 pages!!
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we are the proud winners - yay! we will just say that we have sketched the broad strokes of the reroll agreement and if we have a later disagreement, garg can make the call.
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Sounds good, although I hope you don’t get used to winning :)
I’m going to play Japan, and Allweneedislove will be Germany. I will let him know we are a go.
Could you post or PM your dice e-mails please?
Good luck and have fun!
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who is going to be italy?
our bid is sub to 98 and 2 ipc to london.
will PM you our emails in 10 seconds.
let’s have a great one - as we all know this one is for all the marbles! :-P
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why don’t we just keep this thread? we will just keep it to game posts from here on out.
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why don’t we just keep this thread? we will just keep it to game posts from here on out.
Perfect!!
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Fire when ready
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excellent looks like we are almost ready to kick off.
i would like to get the challenge flag lowluck reroll(s?) sorted out before game start.…now, if we are talking about a simple CHALLENGE FLAG which allows for a full luck reroll, then that is different. i think i prefer the LL version? what do you guys say.
i used gargantua’s terminology of challenge flag, but also want the reroll done in lowluck mode.
so there is consensus and we will use lowluck mode for the challenge flags.why don’t we say one each.� once we have each used one, either team can propose the creation of a second.� if the other team ratifies we can proceed ad nauseam.� if the other team refuses, then a coin flip can decide if the new round of LL rerolls will be allowed.� always 1 for 1 though of course and if the other team never uses theirs, there is only 1 in the entire game.� what do you think?
i do not like the coin flip idea but like the rest. please let me know if the following is ok with boldutch.
once both sides have used one lowluck reroll both sides immediately get one additional lowluck reroll. this process of one additional lowluck roll continues for the entire game.
i would like to propose the following for the attacker, please let me know if boldutch agrees.
the attacker must throw their challenge flag immediately after the battle that they would like the reroll and before any other battles are rolled.… how do we do it if there is a big SBR or an amphibious assault. in this case there is a sea battle that precedes the land battle (or multiple land battles) and a possible air battle that precedes possibly multiple AA rolls on multiple targets…
if we use the rule above that the attacker must throw their challenge flag before any other combat rolls we remove the aagun/sbr and amphibious assault problem.
i’m thinking the entire two part scenario has to be rerolled. but for example, if there were 4 bombers attacking an IC and a tac attacking an ab (follow me here) and 4 interceptors went up… the air war resolves as attacker hits once and defender hits 3 times - then in the bombings, the IC hits 2 bombers and hits the tac, i think the LL reroll should already include the following as a given: the tac that was hit by AA is dead because the LL roll could not have possibly changed that. the rest gets rerolled LL. make sense? what i’m saying is, i don’t want any dice that are valid and essentially LL in the first place to be rerolled. if we are talking about lowluck that’s the way i think it should be…
if we use the rule that the attacker needs to throw their challenge flag immediately then we would remove this problem as the intercept/escort dogfight is a separate battle and the attacker would have to decide before strategic bombing raid.
…another observation: if a battle is say, inf and arm against an inf, then it cannot be rerolled as a LL battle because LL would be no different than the original roll. a LL reroll can only be used if the second roll could be different than the first roll if it is rolled LL… kinda tough to explain but this removes little dicey battles from the equation and means this only applies to bigger rolls. we can flesh this one out more but maybe you will understand what i’m saying and we can go from there…
i agree that the challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit.
i would like a caveat added on to that where you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.
do you agree with the caveat?finally - does the reroll apply to both attacker and defender? ie, can a defender call for the reroll on an attack against them?
i think it is only fair that the defenders can also use a challenge flag(lets say germany attacks moscow and get super lucky, you should be able to throw a challenge flag before you do your ussr turn.)
defenders throwing challenge flags does get tricky as they have to wait until the end of the attackers turn to see if they need to throw the challenge flag.
here is a scenario.
_anzac attack siam, then attack sz98(and get very lucky), then amphibiously assault Italian held egypt from sz98 and from land via trans-jordan, and then caroline islands and wins all 4 battles.france attacks Italian held Alexandria._
before the german turn axis throw a challenge flag to reroll the sz98 attack. the sz98 battle is rolled in lowluck and the axis win in sz98
how would you like to handle the following?
- do attacks before the sz98 attack stay the same, in this scenario siam
- do attacks after the egypt attack stay the same, in this scenario caroline islands
- does the battle in egypt without the amphibious units get rerolled in regular dice or lowluck
- can the attacker make non-combat move/placement edits after the lowluck roll.
- can the french make non-combat move/placement edits after the lowluck roll.
- does the french attack on Alexandria stick, or do they redo their whole turn
my suggestions are
- attacks before the reroll stay the same
- attacks after the reroll stay the same, however you could retreat part way through a subsequent attack(and disregard all subsequent dice from that battle) if the information of the lowluck battle would have caused you to retreat.
- i am not sure which is better and am open to suggestion.
- yes
- yes
- i am not sure what to do about this as it can have major implications one way or the other. what is your suggestion?
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…another observation: if a battle is say, inf and arm against an inf, then it cannot be rerolled as a LL battle because LL would be no different than the original roll. a LL reroll can only be used if the second roll could be different than the first roll if it is rolled LL… kinda tough to explain but this removes little dicey battles from the equation and means this only applies to bigger rolls. we can flesh this one out more but maybe you will understand what i’m saying and we can go from there…
i agree that the challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit.
i would like a caveat added on to that where you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.
do you agree with the caveat?i am in the middle of reviewing your post. couple questions with this one…
when you cay that the challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit, what do you mean?
let’s take an extreme example and say i have 6 infantry attacking 6 bombers. each side is guaranteed one hit only. does this mean this battle could not have the LL challenge flag thrown it it by the attacker or defender?
i should say i have NEVER played lowluck so i may not understand it completely. i do not know what you mean by i would like a caveat added on to that where you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.
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…another observation: if a battle is say, inf and arm against an inf, then it cannot be rerolled as a LL battle because LL would be no different than the original roll. a LL reroll can only be used if the second roll could be different than the first roll if it is rolled LL… kinda tough to explain but this removes little dicey battles from the equation and means this only applies to bigger rolls. we can flesh this one out more but maybe you will understand what i’m saying and we can go from there…
i agree that the challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit.
i would like a caveat added on to that where you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.
do you agree with the caveat?i am in the middle of reviewing your post. couple questions with this one…
when you cay that the challenge flag can only be used in a battle that your side is guaranteed at least one hit, what do you mean?
let’s take an extreme example and say i have 6 infantry attacking 6 bombers. each side is guaranteed one hit only. does this mean this battle could not have the LL challenge flag thrown it it by the attacker or defender?
i should say i have NEVER played lowluck so i may not understand it completely. i do not know what you mean by **i would like a caveat added on to that where you can throw a challenge flag for intercept/escort dogfights and aaguns if lowluck would allow you to hit on 5,4,3, or 2.
sorry, meant to say 5 inf against 5 bombers. neither side is guaranteed one hit. however, one side might get 4 and the other side get none, so a LL reroll would certainly be valid as i see it.**
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as i understand it, a LL roll takes the attacking pips divided by 6 and that is the number of hits. any remainder (5, 4, 3, 2, or 1) results in a single 6 sided die that gives another hit if the die roll is the same as or lower than the remainder. what i think you are saying is that you are agreeing that if a single tac attacks a base and the aa hits, the challenge flag cannot be thrown on that battle, and i would agree. i guess each facility being attacked should be treated as a separate battle and each sea battle before an amphibious assault should be treated as a separate battle. then the things you are saying would make sense (as to an immediate challenge flag without rolling the rest of the battles).
here is the only problem i can see with the immediate challenge flag. what if the defender wants to throw the challenge flag on a battle? attacker rolls all the battles, posts the noncom, and then the defender says “hang on! i want to throw the challenge flag on that battle!”
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ah, as i now continue to review the post, you are addressing the point of a defender challenge flag - let me continue.
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