@ShadowHAwk Those units are essential to defend your capital, as well as France’s capital. There is no way around having a substantial defensive force if you want to win the game as the axis. Ideally all of those units could attack Moscow, but that is literally not an option. Germany can lose its capital turn 4 if you don’t have enough units to defend, and Paris can be lost to the allies turn 5 if you aren’t deploying enough units to prevent that.
Are bombers broken? : Axis bombers lead to allied dismay.
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Hmm…
I find this thread particularly interesting - in regards to bombers.
We had this same discussion 5 years ago.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13763.0;
Thanks, good info on bombing and supplementing forces; but I don’t see a reference to German bomber builds as a main unit or strategy.
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Why go straight to 15ipc before trying 13 or 14 first?
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@Uncrustable:
Why go straight to 15ipc before trying 13 or 14 first?
Because it used to be 15 before I guess. I agree that if it comes to that, it should be adjusted to 13 or 14 first and not jump the gun.
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ive used to play revised alot, and still do occasionally on GTO, bombers are almost never purchased at 15 IPC, way overpriced
maybe 12 is too cheap, maybe not and AA guns just need some adjustment,i personally like bombers at 12, they are purchased in almost every game, but so are fighters and, in G40, tac bombers
lets not get hasty and talk about nerfing bombers into nonexistencegiving bombers +2 to dice in SBR is necessary to give reason to buy and use strat bombers over tac bombers, and it wouldnt make sense if tac bombers did the same average damage to facilities as strat bombers…
maybe only give +1 to strat bombers and a -1 to tac bombers (with 1 being the low cap, that is if you roll a 1 you do 1 damage with tac bomber) -
@Uncrustable:
ive used to play revised alot, and still do occasionally on GTO, bombers are almost never purchased at 15 IPC, way overpriced
maybe 12 is too cheap, maybe not and AA guns just need some adjustment,i personally like bombers at 12, they are purchased in almost every game, but so are fighters and, in G40, tac bombers
lets not get hasty and talk about nerfing bombers into nonexistencegiving bombers +2 to dice in SBR is necessary to give reason to buy and use strat bombers over tac bombers, and it wouldnt make sense if tac bombers did the same average damage to facilities as strat bombers…
maybe only give +1 to strat bombers and a -1 to tac bombers (with 1 being the low cap, that is if you roll a 1 you do 1 damage with tac bomber)Its too early to talk about changes, first, lets play 12 or more games with this strategy, if the axis fail to lose, then consider changes such as IPC cost of bombers. Until then please be patient. I currently am playing 3 games, and I can maintain 3 games for a while by July I hope to have 6 or more games complete, with this first exhibition game being poorly managed to show the potential of Germany just by itself.
First test game:
Currently, I am matching USA with Germany in IPCs, however, the rest of the world is contributing towards the allies. Therefor, continued bomber builds are not likely during the end game, as I need to force the issue within the next 5 turns using fighters and ground troops…if I can’t, we’ll see if Japan needs to contribute on their side. Italy is at 24, while being convoyed for up to 10, if that is lifted and they get the +5 NO for no surface warships they will make a strong difference at 29 IPCs. I may get a chance to do a neutral crush (to drive them back into Egypt) as well if time permits. Even with a poorly played Japan and Italy, this is a very close game. Axis float at 7 cities out of 11 on the Europe side. Japan is weak, but not out if they return to home waters and redeploy that should take a minimum of 4 turns to become a threat. We’ll see if the allies remove them permanently.http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31303.new#new
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In this game James is referencing, I feel a well planned J1 would have done more damage. The Axis don’t stand a chance to take Egypt in the game and are greatly overpowered economically.
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In this game James is referencing, I feel a well planned J1 would have done more damage. The Axis don’t stand a chance to take Egypt in the game and are greatly overpowered economically.
I didn’t want a strong Japan to win this game early, that wouldn’t prove the over powered nature of the air strategy. If Berlin can win while being “outproduced” on the Europe board by itself, it proves that the air campaign is broken. Berlin only has to outproduce Anzac and India to take Egypt, their remaining money is available to take London. Wait and see, in 4-7 turns we’ll know the answer. The allies are not in danger of winning on the Europe board, so Germany has time. They are 1 city away, if London or Egypt falls, that’s the game. Stay tuned. I am demonstrating that Economics are irrelevant unless you outproduce them 2 units to their 1 to have sufficient garrisons to defend both cities. They do not, at this time, have that much of a lead on Germany Economically.
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I can’t see London fall either with a solid UK income and the volume of US navy around, but I’m still watching! :-D
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@Uncrustable:
ive used to play revised alot, and still do occasionally on GTO, bombers are almost never purchased at 15 IPC, way overpriced
maybe 12 is too cheap, maybe not and AA guns just need some adjustment, I Agree.
i personally like bombers at 12, they are purchased in almost every game, but so are fighters and, in G40, tac bombers
lets not get hasty and talk about nerfing bombers into nonexistence. I Agree.giving bombers +2 to dice in SBR is necessary to give reason to buy and use strat bombers over tac bombers, and it wouldnt make sense if tac bombers did the same average damage to facilities as strat bombers… I Agree.
maybe only give +1 to strat bombers and a -1 to tac bombers (with 1 being the low cap, that is if you roll a 1 you do 1 damage with tac bomber)If Bombers need to be fix, I don’t think the main problem is in SBR. Because no matter the number, in each turn of SBR, every Bmbs is at risk 1/6 to be destroy by an AA.
I don’t see why this specific aspect has a problem. The AA is at his strongest on the board.
It is more about the escort and interception rules.
And much more serious problem about projection of power in regular combat.
How AAA and Inf or AAA + fighters+ Inf can be a good defensive counter-measure? -
Just started reading this thread from the beginning. Interesting idea, and it sounds plausible. I’ve often thought strategic bombers should be reduced to an attack value of 1 in naval battles, for the sake of realism and historical accuracy mostly. But, after reading this, something like that might be necessary just to keep bombers from completely taking over the game.
I guess my problem is that focus too much on what would be historically realistic, which is probably why I frequently lose to strategies that involve something weird. Building nothing but one type of unit would be included in my definition of “weird.†Personally, I’m fond of gearing limits, similar to what you see in World in Flames, if anyone has ever played that. Basically, you’d have to keep track of what you built on the previous turn, and could only build two more of a given type of unit than you did last turn. I’d probably simplify it to three categories: air units, land units, and naval units. So, if you built two ships last turn, you could build four this turn, and six the next turn. If you built no planes last turn, you could build two this turn. So you couldn’t build all ships one turn, and then immediately reconfigure your production system to build all infantry the next. But that’s probably way too much bookkeeping for a beer and pretzels game like A&A.
Also, I want to experiment with factory output. Instead of a specific number of units, maybe make minor ICs produce units whose cost equals 6 times the printed value of the territory in which they are located. Major ICs would produce 10 times the value. Okay, I’ll stop going off-topic now. I can’t help it. It’s a medical condition. :-D
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Okay, I’ll stop going off-topic now. I can’t help it. It’s a medical condition. :-D
Damn, now i can’t discriminate against you because it’s a prohibited ground of discrimination.
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Bombers are broken. I got a missing wing to prove it.
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hehe, well, for those that are poppin in, essentially, in my public forum game, I lost 1/2 the German airforce in R1. I didn’t even sink a single ship in z111.(should have hit 3.33times). I deliberately waited one turn due to lack of planes! I felt I didn’t need to rush the issue, so my stack is one turn behind.
It is turn 3. On turn 4 I will be in Belarus with the German stack and my opponent must either leave enough blockers to block 5 italian tanks, 2 planes, 2 bombers and 1 mec in Smo or I can open Smo to take Moscow…or he 1/2 asses it and I destroy one of the 2 stacks. Regardless, I only wanted to point out that he retreated and got damn near every available unit into Moscow. He fought back and has traded well. My point? There is nothing Russia can do.
Britain has been kicking my ass. Every time I send a plane it dies against Britain ships. Frustrating, but even after losing 6 planes for damn near nothing…I am holding on with Fortress Europe in place(i hope). With 6 planes…the European board would be much safer imo, but oh well.
Japan is kicking ass. Unlike JJ’s test game where he was showing how crazy things could be, screw that. I am going for the kill. I don’t want to lose the game to silly thought processes of what if or oh looky, i can send Japan’s fleet to get Egypt etc. I am however, seriously considering a 3 german bomber move to Sink to allow German can opener for Japan fleet crush/India take - I would be much more prone to do so if I had my six german planes! Tough to rely on blockers that can be strafed by German bombers in the pacific. America will have its hands full, but may be able to ignore Europe as Britain is doing well fleet wise and may prove itself to give America the time it needs to put Japan back into the bottle.
Regardless, this game I feel is more indicative of how things went seriously wrong for Germany and Italy(lost their fleet), and yet they will be in Bry turn5. I don’t know of any conventional game that can consistently make that boast.(unless Russia builds tanks…then things get a bit hairy - but only for a bit)
A properly played Japan is crucial to any Axis win. To hell with Germany taking on the world alone. Oh, and having an Italy that can add to the fun is nice should I be able to revive that old hide.
The game is on the play boardgame forums. Its me and JJ vs bonusbent and another fella.
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hehe, well, for those that are poppin in, essentially, in my public forum game, I lost 1/2 the German airforce in R1. I didn’t even sink a single ship in z111.(should have hit 3.33times). I deliberately waited one turn due to lack of planes! I felt I didn’t need to rush the issue, so my stack is one turn behind.
It is turn 3. On turn 4 I will be in Belarus with the German stack and my opponent must either leave enough blockers to block 5 italian tanks, 2 planes, 2 bombers and 1 mec in Smo or I can open Smo to take Moscow…or he 1/2 asses it and I destroy one of the 2 stacks. Regardless, I only wanted to point out that he retreated and got damn near every available unit into Moscow. He fought back and has traded well. My point? There is nothing Russia can do.
Britain has been kicking my ass. Every time I send a plane it dies against Britain ships. Frustrating, but even after losing 6 planes for damn near nothing…I am holding on with Fortress Europe in place(i hope). With 6 planes…the European board would be much safer imo, but oh well.
Japan is kicking ass. Unlike JJ’s test game where he was showing how crazy things could be, screw that. I am going for the kill. I don’t want to lose the game to silly thought processes of what if or oh looky, i can send Japan’s fleet to get Egypt etc. I am however, seriously considering a 3 german bomber move to Sink to allow German can opener for Japan fleet crush/India take - I would be much more prone to do so if I had my six german planes! Tough to rely on blockers that can be strafed by German bombers in the pacific. America will have its hands full, but may be able to ignore Europe as Britain is doing well fleet wise and may prove itself to give America the time it needs to put Japan back into the bottle.
Regardless, this game I feel is more indicative of how things went seriously wrong for Germany and Italy(lost their fleet), and yet they will be in Bry turn5. I don’t know of any conventional game that can consistently make that boast.(unless Russia builds tanks…then things get a bit hairy - but only for a bit)
A properly played Japan is crucial to any Axis win. To hell with Germany taking on the world alone. Oh, and having an Italy that can add to the fun is nice should I be able to revive that old hide.
The game is on the play boardgame forums. Its me and JJ vs bonusbent and another fella.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31356.45;topicseen
Your game is similar in starts to my PBEM game. It does look bleak in my test game, but there is still a lot of time I suspect before things break.
It’s obvious that a normal Japan and the German bomber strategy will not lose under our normal tests, but there are a few unconventional strategies that have potential. I am not saying Germany can always take on the world alone, I was merely demonstrating the ability to hold its own and in that particular game, it might be done…Still waiting for the dice to break my way (no Vaseline in that game). Even with every major battle going against me instead of for me, its still tight…At least I’ll get to demonstrate how bad dice have trouble defeating this concept. (Also demonstrated on your round 1 Germany).
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…Still waiting for the dice to break my way (no Vaseline in that game). Even with every major battle going against me instead of for me, its still tight…At least I’ll get to demonstrate how bad dice have trouble defeating this concept…
i feel like we are playing 2 different games. one of the reasons(besides your good strategy and great play) your axis have done so well is that you have gotten great dice.
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…Still waiting for the dice to break my way (no Vaseline in that game). Even with every major battle going against me instead of for me, its still tight…At least I’ll get to demonstrate how bad dice have trouble defeating this concept…
i feel like we are playing 2 different games. one of the reasons(besides your good strategy and great play) your axis have done so well is that you have gotten great dice.
I’m not trying to offend, but I will try to defend my point as politely as possible. I am very grateful to play you and you are an excellent player and good sport for helping me test this concept.
What is important, I don’t take chances, my assaults are usually overkill due to my conservative nature (built upon 20+ years of Andy schooling me face to face with underpowered assaults on all fronts that never failed and that I always miserably failed to replicate, thus here I am today killing flies with sledge hammers) and thus dice are not really changing my outcomes. Due to game circumstances, you were “forced” to take some chancy battles, and none of them have failed…If fortune swung the other way and I “over” hit in a key battle, this game would likely be finished.
Remember when your three mech took out 3 out of 5 two’s out of 3 rounds of battle? Then that same round 7 a single Anzac fighter hits twice in two rounds to destroy 2 key artillery (should have been more if 3 mech didn’t kill 3 units) with no loss, a single( or more) survivors would have left me a land unit for my transports that were 1 turn from Queensland/South Australia or any island (and I didn’t mention this sequence started with a suicide USA bomber that hit and had a 33 percent chance of missing which left 1 less unit against the 3 mech and anzac fighter later rounds). Anzac is later forced to hit round 8 a Japanese fleet that that should have been a 2 round battle (you hit 4 times as I, but I should have hit 5 and that extra unit missed, then hits the following round and when I hit 1 lower only hitting twice, that left a “4” for a round 3 hit that should never have happened), so it goes 3 combat rounds instead of 2 and I actually lost 2 Battleships as a result. If you think America should have done better on its turn against the navy, do the battle calculator and remember I chose to remove air units to keep navy that large. Round 5 three Russian infantry attack 2 2’s and win with 2 1’s left over after 4 rounds of battle (those Russians are still harassing Japan), The German navy that hits 2 times first round….(that battle worked out, cause the 9 destroyers that should have been 6 or 7 only hit twice as if their weren’t 9 destroyers left over :-D
Now, I have had good rolls too but I did not “need” them. Please show me an axis combat move battle, where I was not going to win by average odds ;)
I’m not mentioning the 2 bombers hit by 2 Destroyers because admittedly your aaguns are terrible. :wink:
I hope this helps defend my point, I like you and am not trying to upset you, just clarifying what I mentioned earlier.
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As a game observer… in my opinion it’s gone both ways. Nothing to write home about.
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It’s always fun to bomb the crap out of U.K. as Germany,
TOTAL DESTRUCTION!!! -
James Aleman,
I finally got to try out some of your Axis bomber strategy on a Global 40 game. We have only gone through 4 rounds so far, but results have been interesting.
1 > German bomber attacks on UK facilities has been devastating. AB in Scotland has 3 damage, NB in UK has 5 damage, AB in UK had 6 damage but was just repaired, IC in UK had 20 damage but repaired to just 6 damage now. UK didn’t even bother repairing facilities at home for 2 rounds due to German bomber presence. Rather they produced in South Africa and Canada. Cleared Africa of all Italian units and sank all Italian navy, both with a little help from French. UK rules Middle-East including Iraq.
NOTE: Looking back now, once the UK factory was maxed out, I probably should have bought transports and did Sealion. Got too focused on bomber buys and preparing for Barbarossa.
2 > German bombers stationed in W. Germany is keeping the US fleet at bay and out of Europe. US Atlantic fleet not large enough to withstand a fleet of German bombers. At present I have 15 German bombers (lost 1 in SBR Leningrad IC). Started Barbarossa G4 (actually I3). Right now 11 bombers in E Poland, 4 in W Germany. Will SBR Moscow next round. Moscow has 4 fighters/possible interceptors but with 11 bombers, like you said I will trade a few of my bombers for Russian fighters.
NOTE: Moscow will be tough. Russia did odd thing. Stacked guys in Leningrad and Ukraine then as soon as I attacked, retreated everything towards Moscow leaving 1 infantry blocker in each territory behind. Leningrad & Ukraine will be easy but Russian stacks will reach Moscow before I can reach them, even with Italian can openings. Moscow will have A LOT of men there, but perhaps German SBRs will do enough that they won’t be able to build much more.
3 > Japan is doing fair with their bombers. Most of their effort ended up chasing the Russians across the north, which does help cut down Russian income but doesn’t do much for their efforts in the south. China and India is actually causing problems on the mainland. Most of Japan’s fleet is gone – 2 CV, 1 BB and 3 transports left. Large US fleet hanging out by Iwo Jima, which makes for a good US bomber base to SBR Japan. US subs ready to attack Japan’s convoys. Still, Japan has 10-11 bombers plus 3 fighters on Japan and 2 fighters, 1 tac on Korea. Maybe a huge air raid against US fleet may do some good. Japan struggling to get DEI 1 island at a time because of dwindling navy. India/ANZAC has been making very good use of their air force by picking apart the Japanese navy. While Japan is making gains down there, it has not been easy.
4 > I went against your purchase plan for Japan round 3 and bought a minor IC for the mainland. Japan was losing too much ground to China and India. Hopefully a few mechs/tanks with air support will ease things up there.
Overall I think this strategy is a success. A lot depends on how the final battle for Moscow turns out. It looks like he plans to just turtle up and let me come to him. If he uses his fighters as interceptors, I think that will be better for me. If not, then the battle will be a little tougher but my SBRs should do great. As for Japan, I guess their main job is to hold out long enough and cause the Allies enough headaches for Germany to get the 8 cities in Europe, right? I guess as long as they don’t lose Tokyo, they have done their job, right? Italy has a modest force in Russia taking a few Russian territories, which has been easy for them only fighting 1 infantry each time, but they won’t be much help getting Moscow with that huge stack of Russians there. They also won’t be much help getting Cairo since they have been totally chased out of Africa. Perhaps if they start heading south through the Caucasus and Middle-East, but that is a long ways to go and UK may be able to stop them before they get there. With my W Germany bombers keeping the US fleet at bay, things are going all right. I just hope US/UK doesn’t find a way to counter that because my European defenses are pretty thin.
Probably won’t get to play any more of the game until my next weekend, which will be Monday night. I’ll let you know what happens.
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