Are bombers broken? : Axis bombers lead to allied dismay.

[Derek]

Raising bombers to 15ipc would wreck them entirely
Jamesaleman doesn’t seem to confident anymore in his game with allweneedislove lol
Just 1 game tho

[baron Münchhausen]

In theory, the limit of this strategy is that it put every eggs in the same basket.

On the long run, almost all of the offensive punch will rely on this massive flying hammer.
It cannot be everywhere and probably cannot be too much split up either.

The general response must be a kind of duck and cover until the bombardment pass and there is not enough Infantry units to feed all the front lines. Then all your mass of ground troops can retake the almost barren ground.

Is that true? Isn’t it?

[Auswanderersland]

@Baron:

In theory, the limit of this strategy is that it put every eggs in the same basket.

On the long run, almost all of the offensive punch will rely on this massive flying hammer.
It cannot be everywhere and probably cannot be too much split up either.

The general response must be a kind of duck and cover until the bombardment pass and there is not enough Infantry units to feed all the front lines. Then all your mass of ground troops can retake the almost barren ground.

Is that true? Isn’t it?

Its a valid point, but not enough feet on the ground to make the difference for Russia, remember how fast this happens to Russia.  Remember implied threat is the factor and if the hammer drops, then yes it makes a difference, but with Germany, the hammer drops every round.  You can reach everywhere from Europe with bombers.  Britain/Russia/Egypt.  Take your pick.

Bombers gotta eat.  And when they do, the eatin is good.  You never trade down, only up.  And you have enough to force the issue.  Allweneedislove is an excellent example of implied threat.  He vacated Moscow…as have I(repeatedly)…to fight again another day…and that is without the German bombers flyin to Moscow, that is from WGerm/Sita!!!  The same bombers that are threatening your fleet in N.Atlantic/Med!  The same bombers that are threatening Sea Lion/SBR London.  The same bombers that threaten strafe of Egypt. If there was a queen gambit where you could end the game, then sacrificing one of these would be worth pushing the bombers slightly out of theatre for one turn, but still…it would be quite the gambit, and even then, when does Germany truly need to pull the trigger?

I used to think Germany was on a timetable to get the job done, but once Moscow falls…I am not sure the allies aren’t on the timetable now to threat of Sea Lion/Egypt/end of game.

JJ is actually proving his point fartin around in the Pacific.

[Auswanderersland]

This strategy has been tested repeatedly by JJ and myself.  We are bringing it to the community asking for help countering it.  While the “test game” you are viewing with Allweneedislove looks lopsided, please note that every game mimics the test game now, why not? it is too easy with bombers and literally - no exceptions, so hopefully, you guys will help.  I do admit a lack of credence within the community, but after playin JJ for 20+ years, I have learned a thing or 2.

[baron Münchhausen]

Thanks Auswanderersland  for the details explanation.
It helps better understand this strategy.

[wheatbeer]

I would like to see how this strategy plays out. James and Auswanderersland, are either of you interested in starting another test game?

[atease]

Now I want to try this strategy. I should have tried it this weekend in a face to face game I had. The thing though, I play with relatively inexperienced player so I don’t even know if they would have realized the implied threat of more than a dozen bombers within range.

[wheatbeer]

My gut says this is a better face-to-face strategy than an online strategy. It will be far easier to overlook bomber options on the physical gameboard.

[ghr2]

@wheatbeer:

My gut says this is a better face-to-face strategy than an online strategy. It will be far easier to overlook bomber options on the physical gameboard.

Agreed

[BJCard]

@wheatbeer:

My gut says this is a better face-to-face strategy than an online strategy. It will be far easier to overlook bomber options on the physical gameboard.

really?  The bombers are big units right in front of you… I forget things all the time playing on Triplea.  Perhaps the screen isn’t quite showing that territory fully… don’t see the bombers next to the tac bombers or something…

[wheatbeer]

Online play, in email/forum games at least, gives people more time to examine than board than most live players would take (unless they have super patient friends). Plus I think it’s easier to count the borders on the tripleA map (though people may differ).

Time is the bigger factor though.

[JamesAleman]

@atease:

I don’t know why so many of you are exploring different house rules when I am pretty convinced that there is a way to beat this strategy, just not discovered yet. It’s not even proven to be even better than the regular axis strategies.

I have 2 strong ideas to test out for the allies.

[JamesAleman]

@Baron:

@atease:

I don’t know why so many of you are exploring different house rules when I am pretty convinced that there is a way to beat this strategy, just not discovered yet. It’s not even proven to be even better than the regular axis strategies.

I don’t know if there is so many. Of course, it takes time to get a full-proof evidence on this matter.
But I find some good defense and justifications of this strategy: JamesAleman and Gargantua seem to me very good advocate.

For now, it’s only a working hypothesis.
If anyone interesting on house rule adjustment can discuss it on the other tread.

thank you, and I will play everyone interested. I hope if I am able to win 12 consecutive games, my concept may be thought of as sound.

[JamesAleman]

@Uncrustable:

Raising bombers to 15ipc would wreck them entirely
Jamesaleman doesn’t seem to confident anymore in his game with allweneedislove lol
Just 1 game tho

I will win with Germany. Japan is redeployed to address gamerman01s concern about pacific production and to prove Japan does not matter in this game (russia holding factories)

[JamesAleman]

@Baron:

In theory, the limit of this strategy is that it put every eggs in the same basket.

On the long run, almost all of the offensive punch will rely on this massive flying hammer.
It cannot be everywhere and probably cannot be too much split up either.

The general response must be a kind of duck and cover until the bombardment pass and there is not enough Infantry units to feed all the front lines. Then all your mass of ground troops can retake the almost barren ground.

Is that true? Isn’t it?

That is why I pause turn 5-9 to make mech infantry normally

[JamesAleman]

@wheatbeer:

I would like to see how this strategy plays out. James and Auswanderersland, are either of you interested in starting another test game?

i will, currently playing 3 games, bonusbent, allweneedislove, and a private 1 per the veterans request

[JamesAleman]

Thank you for your interest. Let me explain the erratic play in the first test game:

I am illustrating concepts discussed in this thread, all in this 1 game, thus it is erratic.

1. bombers can easily change theater in 1 turn:
       I placed 3 German bomers in Asia and as predicted allies were forced to place 5+ ships on the altar of sacrifice to the bombers which never needed to fire a shot or be used, just to block for the allied navy in the Pacific. Japan could have air strafed those 5 destroyers at a cost of 2 or 3 fighters. Japan sent bombers to moscow then went back to asia….quick redelpoyment, not necessary this game but done to illustrate it.

2. German bombers are over powered: I abandoned Africa with Italy and kept Japan small to show Berlin can win without help…(except the italian can opener and turn 1 builds) Imagine if you play Japan and I was Germany…point made

3. Russia will fall turn 5 if they try to build and defend their factories. Point made. I walked past factory defenders and mopped them up later.

4. Bombers force non conventional play, Moscow tried conventional, it failed, USA went bombers. Point made

5. Allies cant build a fleet large enough to hold against bombers and still threaten major landings…Germany can choose to engage navy or landings.  Allied navy will vacate or die in next 3 rounds see Novgorod air force and three more 5 bomber builds…pending… point made and being made

6)based in W.Germany/S.Italy I threaten all points…point made. He must defend London, navy and Egypt.

7. air can clear land and land can occupy empty zones…pending…Japan and Italy vs China.

I ate my words predicting turn 9 win, Japan could not take Egypt turn 8. Concept shown, but failed this game.

Now, I warned my gracious volunteer of my intentions and strategy, It is hard to prepare your first time…Will you do better? Maybe, but I have not shown the other defenses this has beaten.

My goal is to build 4 more times, then assault the weaker (or maybe both): London and Egypt for the win…What is that? turn 10-11?
I have enough land units heading to Egypt. I want 12-14 more bombers for the final assault. I will likely build 2 more carriers then 6 transports as well…wait and see.

[Auswanderersland]

@wheatbeer:

I would like to see how this strategy plays out. James and Auswanderersland, are either of you interested in starting another test game?

love too, but unlike JJ, I am only comfortable playing 1 game at a time.  Sometimes 2 if its a weekend game or something like that.  I am sure JJ and/or myself will be available soon enough.

And for anyone else out there, I am willing to play Allies -no bid- for my counter ideas.  Allweneedislove gave me a few insights watching his game.  He did some things I hadn’t considered viable, however, he is giving me ideas.

[Auswanderersland]

I too have difficulty seeing the entire board on TripleA.  F2f can’t be beat.  Amen.  But if your best buddy lives 90 miles away…then there is TripleA!

I use the battlemap skin at 65-75%.  It allows you to see quite a bit of the map for death from above.

The thing you really need to watch for is bombers leaving america(or entering).  It is tough to see the wrap around sometimes, but if you are cognizant of it, you won’t miss it.  The last area I always forgot to scroll over is Africa-South America-New Zealand…you can do some crazy stuff down there to redeploy bombers, ships, etc.

Hope that helps, and I am glad the community is helping trying to find a counter to this.  Any help is appreciated.

[Auswanderersland]

@AK_Grown:

@Auswanderersland:

/agree.  I am hoping someone helps me with this.  IDK, JJ is currently having his way with allweneedislove.  Allweneedislove is doing better than I the first time I played against this strat, but then he has the advantage of knowing what is coming.  IDK, I advertised for a player to play a game so hopefully someone will pipe up.

My Saturday group is going to try this and see how it works out.  We have a guy who claims Allies cannot lose at all no matter the strategy, so I’m going to try it on him.

Details on the game!!!