13L G40 Boldfresh (Allies +12) vs. Me1945

[boldfresh]

@Me1945:

Bold, you broke the rules. Combat goes after scramble, not CM adjustments. I did a favor for you before allowing some changes after rolling, but not in this case. What I am definitely NOT going to do is having any theoretical discussion with you.
Btw, if what Garg says is true, we are just waisting the time.

What garg says is true, you need 8 VC for 1 full round.  So yeah why arent we finishing this game out from my UK post?  :-P. Dont worry you got this.  Doing the other thing would have put you in danger as well but I gave you credit for being able to navigate it more easily.

Cheers now lets roll.  :-)

[Me1945]

The only solution I can offer you is: you go with the original US CM file you posted before scramble, which is the way IT MUST BE, and proceed with CH6 and UK6 whatever a way you want meaning you can re-roll it, and AFTER finalizing the game I’ll give you a chance to beat me with the last UK6 currently attached file plus UK Tac from Tam you wanted to land on sz96. But, it will be treated as separate league game. Let me know, if anything is unclear here.

[boldfresh]

Yes nothing is clear and it makes little sense.  We can wait for Jenn.  :roll:

[boldfresh]

And I am very disappointed in you Me.  Very sad that you want to go contrary to all reason.  Every league player that has weighed in disagrees with you.

[boldfresh]

The saddest thing of all is you are even contradicting yourself.  :roll:

[Jennifer]

@Boldfresh:

May change the landing locations some.

@Boldfresh:

ok, i put that move together before running into a meeting.  now that i’ve had a little more time to look it over, i think i want to change it a bit.  landing only in norway and taking 1 less ftr into z112.  doubt that will change your scramble but if it does, we can run it.

@Me1945:

No problem. Take your time.

@Boldfresh:

if you are referring to the fact that i didn’t ask for your scramble in 112, i have said that if i changed what i was bringing into the zone, you are free to scramble and run the battle later.

@Me1945:

The issue is your US CM changes after posting my scramble decision. Some changes are possible, but I did not confirm any. I can only accept the original CM file you posted and don’t accept the arguments like what is related or not. US CM phase is over. In the case you refuse proceeding with the original file, we need the league  administrator ruling.

I believe the above is an accurate representation of what has been posted in relation to the question thus far, by both contestants.

Personally, I’ve always held the rule of “as long as the dice have not started to fall yet, changes are possible.”  This is reflected in the league rules with regard to finding and fixing errors before that person’s next turn, else they stand as they are.  In this case, the dice had not yet started to fall.

However, I recognize that scramble decisions may change based on what is, and is not present.  Bold recognized this in his statement (second to last one listed above) to the fact that if he altered what he was bringing to SZ 112 that he would ask for a new scramble order, and since there was no change, he feels that there was no need to ask for another scramble order and that the last one should stand.

For now, I am going to rule that the turn stands as presented at the end of the Allied turn.  If there is new evidence that you’d like to present to me, that may change my ruling, please do so.

[boldfresh]

Yes jenn please look closer.  Specifically I stated I was going to change what I brought into the zone and change other moves.  Then I said I would just redo the move but would still land in z112.  At that point me said “no problem.  Take your time.”

Thanks Jenn

[boldfresh]

in addition Jenn, two important facts:

1.  no dice had been rolled as you stated
2.  he didn’t scramble in the first place, as no reasonable person ever would.  had he scrambled, then he would be able to argue logically that i should not be allowed to take anything different into the zone.  to argue that i should not be allowed to take less into the zone when there was still overwhelming force entering is ludicrous.
3.  he stated that he was fine with me changing my landings.
4.  finally, he stated that he was fine with me redoing the move (again as any reasonable player would be given the circumstances)

to now try and cling to some rules technicality to force the original move when he clearly stated he was fine with me redoing is very poor sportsmanship, in my opinion.

please do an in depth review, as i said, all of the players that have reviewed the situation disagree with Me’s hard stance.  In addition, Me refuses to argue in support of his stance because it is apparently indefensible by reason.

[boldfresh]

i guess i came up with 4 important facts.  :lol:

[boldfresh]

in addition, since there were no land battles to follow the z112
landing (it was a walkin) i said if he wanted to scramble, he
could go ahead and do so.

[boldfresh]

Jenn, this is quite similar to what Jeff28 tried to pull by going back several turns
after he saw what i was going to do (remember the game you ruled on some time
back?).  Me ok’d a full redo of the move (at least certainly indicated he was fine
with major alterations) and now he has reversed his position and is trying to cling to some
shaky rules technicality because he is now afraid he will lose.

[boldfresh]

and finally, to OMEGA.  what the heck man?  it would certainly seem that Me thinks he’s in a lot more trouble here THAN YOU THINK HE IS…  :lol:

[boldfresh]

@Cmdr:

However, I recognize that scramble decisions may change based on what is, and is not present.  Bold recognized this in his statement (second to last one listed above) to the fact that if he altered what he was bringing to SZ 112 that he would ask for a new scramble order, and since there was no change, he feels that there was no need to ask for another scramble order and that the last one should stand.

For now, I am going to rule that the turn stands as presented at the end of the Allied turn.  If there is new evidence that you’d like to present to me, that may change my ruling, please do so.

jenn, what entered z112 DID change - i REDUCED what went to the zone, as I had stated I would, saying that if he wanted to scramble, go ahead.  again, he originally DID NOT SCRAMBLE.  i have asked Me to explain logically why if he did not scramble originally he thinks it is fair and sporting to try to force the turn to occur as originally posted, especially after he indicated redoing the move was fine.

[boldfresh]

ok Me - the gloves are coming off.  you made me pull out the rulebook so let’s just read what the rulebook says.

“The attacker may not change any combat movements or attacks AFTER THE DEFENDER HAS SCRAMBLED”.

now, may I ask one simple question…  DID YOU SCRAMBLE, Me1945?  :roll:

[boldfresh]

To me, the issue is CUT and DRIED.  I did not even need to ask Me if I could redo the move.  Per the rules I could because he did not scramble.

Me, save a little shred of dignity and just go ahead with your italy move.

Jenn, thank you for looking at the game, but next time could you please consult the rulebook?  When there is a dispute, I should think the first thing the moderator should do is research applicable rules.

Cheers

[boldfresh]

You know what I love the most about this?  That all the players that weighed in thought the edits should be allowed (for whatever reason) and that the RULEBOOK actually has it in black and white - in my opinion the fact that there was no scramble was the biggest reason BY LOGIC that the entire move should be allowed to be redone.  Gotta love it when the rules  are clear and logical - nice work Larry Harris (and/or Krieghund)!

[boldfresh]

Me, I would appreciate your clear acceptance of the rules and would like an apology for the fact that you have delayed the game unnecessarily by grasping at what you THOUGHT was a rules technicality in your favor.

Now MAN UP and continue the game… and don’t try any more of this punk ass sheit.

[boldfresh]

@Boldfresh:

Me, I would appreciate your clear acceptance of the rules and would like an apology for the fact that you have delayed the game unnecessarily by grasping at what you THOUGHT was a rules technicality in your favor.

Now MAN UP and continue the game… and don’t try any more of this punk ass sheit.

if you cannot apologize, then this game officially goes from a friendly game to an UNFRIENDLY game, and we will have to VERY CLEARLY lay out expectations just as Stalingradski very reasonably suggested.  In my opinion, you already attempted to make the game unfriendly or were already treating it as such based on what you just tried to pull, but I will reserve judgement and give you the benefit of the doubt in just not understand the rules FOR NOW, if you apologize.

Cheers

[boldfresh]

@Me1945:

The only solution I can offer you is: you go with the original US CM file you posted before scramble, which is the way IT MUST BE, and proceed with CH6 and UK6 whatever a way you want meaning you can re-roll it, and AFTER finalizing the game I’ll give you a chance to beat me with the last UK6 currently attached file plus UK Tac from Tam you wanted to land on sz96. But, it will be treated as separate league game. Let me know, if anything is unclear here.

i have wiped my ass with higher quality material than this post.  shame on you.

[boldfresh]

@Boldfresh:

ok Me - the gloves are coming off.  you made me pull out the rulebook so let’s just read what the rulebook says.

“The attacker may not change any combat movements or attacks AFTER THE DEFENDER HAS SCRAMBLED”.

now, may I ask one simple question…  DID YOU SCRAMBLE, Me1945?   :roll:

now, i’m going to throw you a bone here Me.  ok?

when i said what i said to cow in our XDAP game, i was under the impression that giving a scramble decision was binding and that the combat moves could not be changed at that point.  because i read the rules quickly and made an incorrect assumption.  perhaps you did as well.

THAT BEING SAID, the letter of the rule is that if a scramble is made, even if it is one fighter against 30 planes attacking, the combat move is locked in.  even then, i would ONLY expect a defender to scramble a single plane in order to activate said rule and then enforce said rule to the utmost IF it was an unfriendly game of the most extreme nature.  so apparently that is what our game is, and we must lay out the exact expectations before we proceed.  I do not expect an apology from you, and if you were to apologize, i might even resign due to shock.