@F_alk:
@cystic:
- Current slave-labor. … …but one has to be realistic and practical we well as morally/ethically.
You forget one thin CC. The corporations are not thinking morally or ethically at all.
right. At the same time, i am having trouble determining how they are acting immorally or unethically. Are they blackmailling people into working free for them? Or tying them down? Or do they just hold guns to these people’s heads? Are they paying them less than other related companies after binding them to contracts? Do they routinely subject these people to dangerous environments? Even in Canada/Germany, many companies do not act “ethically” and those who do we accuse of only doing so in their own selfish interest. Really, i wonder the consequences of these companies moving out of the Pacific Rim wholesale. Would they be blamed for a number of people being out of work? Or would there be cheering and singing in the streets for being freed of this slavery?
You really seem to think that “supply and demand” are a self-controling measure for “the market”, and that the “trickle-down-effect” works.
It doesn’t.
Market laws are man-made laws, they are not unchangable, and not “natural laws”. Still, the ruling paradigm says that “man cannot interfere”, well except for making the market more free, privatizing more gov’t -owned stuff etc. …
unfortunately (in my mind, and in Canada), the opposite happens. The market appears to be increasingly LESS free, with too much becoming public-corporations - gov’t owning businesses that it has no reason or right to own. As for market laws - they are not man-made laws - they are theoretically well-derived laws that only work until they are contravened (much like gravity).
CC, do you know the ratio between the volume of the world-wide trade with derivates compared to the trade with “real” goods and services?
And remember, trading with derivates is nothing more than “economical horsebetting” (you look at the data, and say which horse will win/how a value will change).
The ratio is: derivate trade makes up 16 times the “real” trade. 16 times! The blowing up of the Internet Hype was just a pebble into an ocean compared to that once it blows.
so??? How does this affect my current views on the whole “slavery” issue that we’ve been discussing? And so what? Ok, so derivatives goes crashing down - are we better off being the producers of real goods? Probably - in which case we are the worse off for having cheaper labor “produce” the goods?
As far as this “ratio” is concerned - this does not exactly float my boat. Consider derivatives as rocks. So what if the same rock is traded 16 times to every bushel of wheat - there is a big difference between the two. One has a natural lifespan, the other has a self-determined lifespan, but really - i do not see how this is germaine to the subject.
No, i don’t believe in the Neo-liberal theology. And CC, i must say that i am unpleasantly surprised that you seem to follow that creed.
as i said - just trying to be practical. Really, it would be in my family’s best interest if all that was taken away from us was returned. Just because i choose to start the page fresh and consider that to be the most practical outlook - this makes me morally corrupt?
I wasnt blaming anyone TG, and if it sounded that way, than i apologize. I simply knew that Nike had been in trouble before for alleged slave labor, so I used them as an example.
Am I’m not blaming you either. :wink:
I just wanted to say, that there are two sides to a coin.
@TG:
In further post, please seperate between past and present for easier reading. :wink:
I will do my best :)
I believe someone here used the example of Nike for exploiting slavery. … Nike also raised labor standards in 1998 by, among other things, increasing the minimum working age at shoe factories to 18…
Nike is the only one example known to me, where a company changed the working conditions in its sweat shops due to public pressure.
There was something about that in the book i mentioned, but can’t find it at the moment.
@cystic:
Are they blackmailling people into working free for them? Or tying them down? Or do they just hold guns to these people’s heads? Are they paying them less than other related companies after binding them to contracts? Do they routinely subject these people to dangerous environments?
Well, surely the barbed wire around the run-down houses (can you say barracks, or is that an army only term?) and the armed militia is only there to keep others out, and not to keep some in that work their happily 14-16 hours a day, in China even 7 days a week. Surely these sweat shops help the country in which they are built by not paying taxes on import (for ressources), export or any other taxes, as they are put up in free-trade-areas.
And yes, they are placed in dangerous environments. Ever noticed how nice and colourful our toys we import from China are? THe wages make up 6% of the price when you buy it btw, the workers on the other hand have no protection whatsoever from the stuuf that gases out (of the plastic, of the colours).
unfortunately (in my mind, and in Canada), the opposite happens. The market appears to be increasingly LESS free… As for market laws - they are not man-made laws - they are theoretically well-derived laws that only work until they are contravened (much like gravity).
Market laws base on totally un-proven basic assumptions. The “well-derived” part is something that a friend who is doing her PhD there would laugh about, if she is in a good mood. Most of these “laws” were not even created by economists. Have you ever looked at the economy Nobel Prize winners of the last 10-15 years? Ahd what happened to or with their theories? I can’t remember which crash was directly related to which Prize, but i could look that up if you want to. (Thus, there was a not-working-at-all theory which got a Nobel Prize, so much for “well-derived”)
For the gov’t gains influence in Canada. If you say so, i have to believe you, though it is hard to believe that Canada is the only country worldwide that can work against that trend.
so??? How does this affect my current views on the whole “slavery” issue that we’ve been discussing? …
It was to illustrate the fact that you probably have a view of “how economy works” that is far from the facts, but heavily idealizing. IMO it is not better than horsebetting, and i can’t believe in something that makes most of its profit by “advanced gambling”.
@F_alk:
@cystic:
Are they blackmailling people into working free for them? Or tying them down? Or do they just hold guns to these people’s heads? Are they paying them less than other related companies after binding them to contracts? Do they routinely subject these people to dangerous environments?
Well, surely the barbed wire around the run-down houses (can you say barracks, or is that an army only term?) and the armed militia is only there to keep others out, and not to keep some in that work their happily 14-16 hours a day, in China even 7 days a week. Surely these sweat shops help the country in which they are built by not paying taxes on import (for ressources), export or any other taxes, as they are put up in free-trade-areas.
Please. I’m really having a hard time believing that people do not work in these places of their own volition. If i knew this to be true, i certainly would “boycott” these industries.
As for these companies not paying taxes etc. - that is the problem/fault of the governing country. Maybe it is just grateful that some of its populace is actually being employed . . . .
And yes, they are placed in dangerous environments. Ever noticed how nice and colourful our toys we import from China are? THe wages make up 6% of the price when you buy it btw, the workers on the other hand have no protection whatsoever from the stuuf that gases out (of the plastic, of the colours).
i really don’t care what the money i spend on a product goes to pay - as long as its not funding violence directly as far as i can determine. It can pay 1% - i don’t care. These workers have a choice.
I do have a problem with them working in toxic environments without safe conditions (masks etc.). Maybe they should petition their government/company for safer working environments.
unfortunately (in my mind, and in Canada), the opposite happens. The market appears to be increasingly LESS free… As for market laws - they are not man-made laws - they are theoretically well-derived laws that only work until they are contravened (much like gravity).
Market laws base on totally un-proven basic assumptions. The “well-derived” part is something that a friend who is doing her PhD there would laugh about, if she is in a good mood. Most of these “laws” were not even created by economists. Have you ever looked at the economy Nobel Prize winners of the last 10-15 years? Ahd what happened to or with their theories? I can’t remember which crash was directly related to which Prize, but i could look that up if you want to. (Thus, there was a not-working-at-all theory which got a Nobel Prize, so much for “well-derived”)
Ahhhh - scrutinizing economics nobel prize laureates. I think this is around 2487 on my “to-do” list. You will have a hard time demonstrating to me that supply and demand of labor and products do not drive their respective markets.
For the gov’t gains influence in Canada. If you say so, i have to believe you, though it is hard to believe that Canada is the only country worldwide that can work against that trend.
If it is not Canada per se, it is the individual provinces. I am happy to see the gov’t spin off crown corporations (well - i have a problem with them spinning off profitible ones) as the one thing that the gov’t sucks most at is efficiency.
so??? How does this affect my current views on the whole “slavery” issue that we’ve been discussing? …
It was to illustrate the fact that you probably have a view of “how economy works” that is far from the facts, but heavily idealizing. IMO it is not better than horsebetting, and i can’t believe in something that makes most of its profit by “advanced gambling”.
I really don’t care. This has no bearing on the discussions on “reparations to slaves-descendents” or “putting out of work employers in 3rd world nations”. If i can make money off of derivatives - great, if i lose money - my problem. And you are right - it is a form of gambling as even economists are only correct 50% of the time. So what? Unfortunately we don’t have much more to go on than applying realistic conditions to idealized models.
Please. I’m really having a hard time believing that people do not work in these places of their own volition. If i knew this to be true, i certainly would “boycott” these industries.
As for these companies not paying taxes etc. - that is the problem/fault of the governing country. Maybe it is just grateful that some of its populace is actually being employed . . . .
Ah, there are worst things than slavery like homeless unemployment. As for the conditions that F_alk mention, I know that they are not true everywhere. I know of workers that live in factories in China that get paid very little ($50-100 a month – again compared to our standards). But at least they have a place to stay and are fed, and from what I heard, those jobs are highly valued. Though the corporation that employs these workers is making much more from their surplus labor (what is fair?), they are at least paid something. It’s not our fault (the average Joe of the Western World) for not doing anything about, but lies more in the government and of the corporations themselves.
@cystic:
As for these companies not paying taxes etc. - that is the problem/fault of the governing country. Maybe it is just grateful that some of its populace is actually being employed . . . .
I bet the quote
“from now on political leaders are under the control of the financial markets” of Mr Tietmeyer, President of the Bundesbank, at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, 3rd February, 1996 is unknown to you…. can oyu imagine the reaction of the political leaders that were listening? minutes-long applause…
So, yes, it probably is “gratefulness” that someone allows them to pick up some crumbs from the dirty floor.
You probably have heard of the so-called “Washington Consensus”, which was giving the framework for economical policies for the last 10ish years.
It is quite nice to see even the World Bank admit its failure!
(We will see wether that actually changes anything in the situation. The world bank is pretty famous for admitting flaws and failure, then working some years over it before not changing the important points)
There also is list of the “10 commandments” of the Consensus in their commented and edited form by their creator j. Williamson
i really don’t care what the money i spend on a product goes to pay - as long as its not funding violence directly as far as i can determine. It can pay 1% - i don’t care. These workers have a choice.
Which choice?
I do have a problem with them working in toxic environments without safe conditions (masks etc.). Maybe they should petition their government/company for safer working environments.
That would mean that the state needs to put up barriers, and controls, and has to fund these controls….
Of course that would reduce the profit for the company.
Market laws base on totally un-proven basic assumptions….Most of these “laws” were not even created by economists…
… You will have a hard time demonstrating to me that supply and demand of labor and products do not drive their respective markets.
Well, man can create demand (that’s by the way were most of the money you pay for product goes to). Why is “creation of demand” allowed, but “controling the flux of money” is something man should not do?
I really don’t care. This has no bearing on the discussions on “reparations to slaves-descendents” or “putting out of work employers in 3rd world nations”.
Not directly, true. But you’d be a pretty bad doctor if you look at your patients’ symptons only and do not think of its possible causes. And i don’t think that you are a bad doctor.
If i can make money off of derivatives - great, if i lose money - my problem. And you are right - it is a form of gambling as even economists are only correct 50% of the time. So what?
You only need about 5% equity capital to start these gambles. So, if you lose, it is not your problem.
And how can economists not be 99%+ right, when they have these “theoretically well derived laws”. That is a shameful rate for a scientist.
Unfortunately we don’t have much more to go on than applying realistic conditions to idealized models.
It works much better in all other sciences. That’s why i do not really accept MBA’s as scientists.
@TG:
…but lies more in the government and of the corporations themselves.
But: wasn’t it so that the one and only responsibility of a corporation is to make maximum profit?
Not directly, true. But you’d be a pretty bad doctor if you look at your patients’ symptons only and do not think of its possible causes. And i don’t think that you are a bad doctor.
How would paying reperations to decendents of slaves benefit 3rd World Countries paying higher wages to workers?
But: wasn’t it so that the one and only responsibility of a corporation is to make maximum profit?
Of course, though not every corporation is concerned with that.
@TG:
How would paying reperations to decendents of slaves benefit 3rd World Countries paying higher wages to workers?
It might be important for the question of “guilt of the whites”
So paying reperations to the decendents of former slaves (mostly working Americans) would make whites feel less guilty, while 3rd world continues the way it is. I think I’m lost here…
There’s one part missing there, I don’t think that most whites feel guilty about slavery. :roll:
@F_alk:
Which choice?
The choice to work there or not.
There’s one part missing there, I don’t think that most whites feel guilty about slavery
Guilty… but not to the extend of handing out reperations I bet.
It might be important for the question of “guilt of the whites”
But Falk, you yourself said the entire Western Society is at fault from this. That includes many people other than whites, including blacks, hispanics, asians, Indians, native americans, etc. Whites are not the only ones who perpetuate slavery, be it the “slavery” of today, or the slavery of the past. It is like you said, the Western Society as a whole.
@TG:
So paying reperations to the decendents of former slaves (mostly working Americans) would make whites feel less guilty, while 3rd world continues the way it is. I think I’m lost here…
Ahm… seems like i misread your posting a bit. But somehow, i can still stand to what i said:
Once we pay reparations to former slaves + descendants, we are obliged to rethink what we do/ allow today. Thus, the only economically “smart” consequence is not to pay former slaves and their descendants.
But Falk, you yourself said the entire Western Society is at fault from this. That includes many people other than whites, including blacks, hispanics, asians, Indians, native americans, etc. Whites are not the only ones who perpetuate slavery, be it the “slavery” of today, or the slavery of the past. It is like you said, the Western Society as a whole.
Well, i think you put a few of those who suffered from western opression into the opressors role.
If we destroy a culture and octroate (sp?) our system onto them, are they then guilty? A tricky question. The only answer i can give is that it makes us even mor guilty and responsible.
@Deviant:Scripter:
@F_alk:
Which choice?
The choice to work there or not.
What are the alternatives? What is the result of choosing not to work there?
And something interesting for all conservatives and christians:
Some large land owners of Brazil have protested against the occupation of 13.2 kha by landless rural workers. These workers belong to the MST organisation, which had illegally occupied other lands (those 1,500 workers were evicted though). All this is done with support of some US churches, an open letter expressing support was published during the Conference the National Council of US Churches.
The protest was an unsigned pamphlet, telling three ways how to assasinate those workers. It says: “These rats need to be exterminated. It will be painful, but strong remedies are necessary for big illnesses. People of São Gabriel, do not permit our city to be defiled and stained by the deformed and dirty feet of this human scum. It is necessary that blood pours to show our courage.”
For those who are actually interested in this one case, read:
http://www.brazzil.com/2003/html/news/articles/jul03/p107jul03.htm
a link list of things happening in Brasil:
http://www.oneworld.org/sejup/land.htm
This is reminiscent of the peasant’s revolution in Germany in the late 1500’s.
Brazil is weird. I havn’t heard of hit squads put out on children these days, but i know it has happened in the past.
As for “US churches” - there is no telling what these “Christians” actually do and believe. There are several “churches” which are merely fronts for Klan organizations.
Really F_alk. I could use almost any institution for nefarious purposes.
Well, i think you put a few of those who suffered from western opression into the opressors role.
Other people then whites work at companys who you may accuse of slavery today, and other people then whites reap the benefits that they have on our economy.
Blacks in Africa originally sold their fellow Blacks into slavery, even working for the Europeans, because money was more important to them. Blacks are not simply the opressed.
If we destroy a culture and octroate (sp?) our system onto them, are they then guilty
No culture was destroyed, it still exists in Africa (not justifying the forced indoctrination of blacks into our culture) not all blacks descend from slaves, some came over later, of their own will. they were not opressed, no culture forced on them.
Well, i think you put a few of those who suffered from western opression into the opressors role.
If we destroy a culture and octroate (sp?) our system onto them, are they then guilty? A tricky question. The only answer i can give is that it makes us even mor guilty and responsible.
But did you ever stop to realize, that people of their own culture/race, played the opressors role onto their ownselves?
If we destroy a culture and octroate (sp?) our system onto them, are they then guilty
No culture was destroyed, it still exists in Africa (not justifying the forced indoctrination of blacks into our culture) not all blacks descend from slaves, some came over later, of their own will. they were not opressed, no culture forced on them.
That again is talking of US slavery only. My answer was aiming at you mentioning Indians, Native Americans, Hispanics etc. You try to put it back onto Africa only, as there some relics of their former cultures have survived. I guess it comes from a different view on what is “western soceity”. During the time the US had slavery, the western society had no non-caucasian in there. Today is different, of course, but then we should look at the reasons and development of that too.
For destroying no cultures:
I don’t think you could say that of Middle and South America. Even though there we didn’t pick up that many slaves (probably the natives there were no good material, or already baptized when slavery became “hip”).
@TG:
But did you ever stop to realize, that people of their own culture/race, played the opressors role onto their ownselves?
Good, now name one non-european-roots culture (that is non-US, non-european) that has enslaved europeans, that has opressed us caucasians.
Sure, caucasians have enslaved caucasians. Blacks have enslaved blacks (although AFAIR it was some kind of time-limited slavery as a form of punishment and retribution mainly), Asians had slavery etc.
But only we enslaved not only us, but all others as well.
For a culture that did not opress itself, have a look the australian Aboriginies. They even did not have the concept of “owning”.
Good, now name one non-european-roots culture (that is non-US, non-european) that has enslaved europeans, that has opressed us caucasians.
Sure, caucasians have enslaved caucasians. Blacks have enslaved blacks (although AFAIR it was some kind of time-limited slavery as a form of punishment and retribution mainly), Asians had slavery etc.
The Hun Empire, only tribute from the Romans prevented them from become conquered slaves like the Germans were.
@TG:
The Hun Empire, only tribute from the Romans prevented them from become conquered slaves like the Germans were.
Somewhat true. There were 75 years, from 375 to 450 AD, were the huns pressed on europe.
But, if you look for Huns, who were nomads, as slaveholders, you probably will rather find them treat their conquered people like Ammianus Marcellinus writes in his ROman History, book 31, chapter 3.
“Igitur Huni pervasis Halanorum regionibus, quos Greuthungis confines Tanaitas consuetudo nominavit, interfectisque multis et spoliatis reliquos sibi concordandi fide pacta iunxerunt eisque adhibitis confidentius Errnenrichi late patentes er uberes pagos repentino impetu perruperunt, bellicosissimi regis et per multa variaque fortiter facta vicinis nationibus formidati.”
They looted and plundered, and then forced treaties onto the beaten people. Slavery is not directly mentioned, maybe because it is part of looting for a Roman.
It’s hard to tell. More important is the when and for how long if you look for effects. But, you are right, there were other cultures oppressing cuacasians. The effect of that (apart from starting the great movement of people and thus the fall of rome etc.), so the direct effect i would think is neglectable, compared to the indirect effect (as the merging of germanic and roman culture, thus setting the way for christianity and the Holy Roman Empire, and all that follows).
