I think the problem is not that, but that you keep referring to today, which IMO is unrelated to the question of whether we pay reparations to the descendants of former slaves, that was the topic, and the basis of my argument, if it is the same for you, than thats why we are differing so much, because you seem to be arguing about something different.
The topic is “should white people feel guilty” related to sins of the past. So, instead of talking of slavery (which is mentioned as an example, other “sins” like the various genocides and exploitations are part of that topic. Be honest to yourself: if i had changed to that (without mentioning that they actually are part of the topic), would you have taken them as on topic? I don’t want to know the answer, just answer it honestly for yourself, about an hour after your’ve read this.
The question of reparations itself is slightly off-topic, one could claim, as the question was about the admittance of guilt. It actually is a poor sign that such an admittance is made equal to pay money.
So, when you say:
“the question of whether we pay reparations to the descendants of former slaves, that was the topic”
you are wrong and should not try to blame others for further extending the question. And i honestly didn’t see that you blame D:S for mentioning Colin Powell.
… and if I knew something was “slave” made, I wouldnt buy it.
Fair enough.
…are…are … could produce …
Ok, here, you are either talking about today, or need to brush up on your history.
You either want to still blame me that i am off-topic, or you should go to the dentist twice a year.
The only problem with that: banks don’t die. They may be bought, merged or whatever, but the debt account will live forever! Try it, your grandkids will love you for that…
I fear I am going to lose my temper with this one, Its an analogy.
Yes, it absolutely is. Did it ever cross your mind what my “example of the habit of banks” is?
For losing your temper: you’ve lost it in the previous posting already IMO and lost it here again.
Nothing explains the difference between “between slavery and today”. I see your point (and went on to that in the following notion of my previous posting). … What happened between then and now? If i accepted that there was a “then and now”, i would accept that there is no slavery in the world anymore.
How would you call working in the sweatshops? I call it slavery, because that term fits best.Again, I think you do not understand what I am saying. The things happening between then and now (if you dispute that there was a then and now, I will shoot you) are referring to the money, not the slavery. I was commenting on the transfership of money that invariably goes on.
Then make yourself clearer please. This above was an answer directed at and only at your “complete sentence” answer.
The point you are attacking i covered already. Look up my second last posting. You on the other hand ignore my clarification of the question and the question it seems.
I attack that you put slavery as a “happened in the past only” fact.
And i will not continue this part of the thread, as you have given an implicit answer to the question.
Existing slavery of today, as you call it (im not going to argue that here, as it is mostly a question of semantics), is not included in the question of should we make people pay reparations to the descendants of slaves. when thinking about the past, you do not include the present, as it has no impact on it, rather, you do it the other way. the existing slavery of today, is a seperate matter.
I do not think so at all. I as white feel guilty not only of the sins in the past, but of the sins of today also. The sins which we should not let happen out of our historic knowledge.
If i didn’t feel guilty of the past (on the other hand), then i still could (though need not) feel guilty of what happens today.
The “off topic”-ness of “slavery in our days” is extremely small, i would not put more off-topic than talking of reparations only.
A simple misspeak on my part (i dont know if thats a word, but you get the point)
ok.
Slavery today is not irrelevant.
Wrong
No, you are wrong …
how long do you think should we continue with that?
And i could give you a bucketful of examples for modern slavery. For the western societies that profited from slaves, it is pretty easy: all.
Im not asking for examples of western societies, im asking for examples of corporations and individuals
Ok, for modern slavery of corporations and individuals, that will take some time to write down, so i will first finish this post and then send a second.
If everything you said was about past slavery, then you seriously did not do a good job of getting your point across, because most of your argument seemed to consist of today
Of course not everything. That’s what paragraphs are for.
[edited for better readability]
modern slave holders or directly profiting form that:
This list does not include otherwise amoral or other “highly profitable” corporations and individuals.
It is taken from the first 83 pages of the 290 pages of Jean Ziegler’s “Les nouveaux Maîtres du Monde et ceux qui leur résistant”. He is from Switzerland, former Minister and now working for the UN.
If you want more, the more interesting sections are later in the book. I would recommend to read it. I will expand the list when i find more time.
A very interesting link given in his book:
www.nlcnet.org
all i hear is “blah, blah, blah, im a dirty tramp”
Hi all,
all i can say is that i am a bit torn: my dad’s portuguese and my mom german.
so should i feel guilty for that my portuguese country men sold slaves and forces them into labor; or rather more for my german side where people sharing the same nationality as my might have been involved in nasty things?
my answer is: I dont, I dont have to, I should not and nobody in the right might should try to make me or others.
if you look at history, all of our contries are guilty of some things in the past. Whether it is assembling the greatest empires in the world (britain, italy, russia, etc) or treating their fellow people with the most outright disgust (too many to mention).
Coz the point is we have got a lot of problems to tackle: worldwide unemployment, AIDS research, progress of democracy, prmotion of individual rights, etc. And all of this needs to be solved every day to secure our future. We will not tackle these issues successfully if we keep debating who is evil and guilty of every thing and some things.
We, the young today, have a responsibility to look at history and learn from our (as man, not as members of a nationality) mistakes, and through this way come closer to achieving some of the goals outlined above. But nobody can expect us to be guilty or accountable of crimes that were committed by people supposedly in our name.
Therfore, lets always be opne and let reason prevail. We have got a lot to do!
Bye for now,
Hans
Hanso - Bang on. If you look at my family’s background, it tended to be fairly removed from “slaves”, and i think i’d be in the clear from the neo-liberal cry of “reparations”.
This thread seems to have taken some twists and turns, and a few interesting side topics have come up . . . .
I realize that i’m looking at this whole thing relatively simplistically, but one has to be realistic and practical we well as morally/ethically.
Hanso, CC, I couldnt have said it better myself. What you two said is my pretty much my thoughts exactly. Mark it down on the calendar, Im agreeing with CC.
we already payed Reparations for Slavery!! every person who died during the Civil War!! we payed in Blood and Commitment to the Slaves, not Money!
@cystic:
- Current slave-labor. … …but one has to be realistic and practical we well as morally/ethically.
You forget one thin CC. The corporations are not thinking morally or ethically at all.
You really seem to think that “supply and demand” are a self-controling measure for “the market”, and that the “trickle-down-effect” works.
It doesn’t.
Market laws are man-made laws, they are not unchangable, and not “natural laws”. Still, the ruling paradigm says that “man cannot interfere”, well except for making the market more free, privatizing more gov’t -owned stuff etc. …
CC, do you know the ratio between the volume of the world-wide trade with derivates compared to the trade with “real” goods and services?
And remember, trading with derivates is nothing more than “economical horsebetting” (you look at the data, and say which horse will win/how a value will change).
The ratio is: derivate trade makes up 16 times the “real” trade. 16 times! The blowing up of the Internet Hype was just a pebble into an ocean compared to that once it blows.
No, i don’t believe in the Neo-liberal theology. And CC, i must say that i am unpleasantly surprised that you seem to follow that creed.
A last one, for those who have the point of “only the ones who still live should be paid by their exploiters/oppressors”.
That would mean: If you have slaves or people working in forced labor for you, make sure that they do not survive, and best that their closest relatives do not survive.
Imagine Germany had succeeded in killing all european Jews, Roma, Sinti … all the forced laborer POWs…
Then we needn’t have to pay anyone, that would have been really cool for us, wouldn’t it.
Too topic has gotten a bit skewed to say the least. What started out as a topic on reperations to blacks turns into something about the worldwide economy (which created a lot of confusion to say the least)
As for present, they’re no denying slavery exist, both outright in countries like Sudan and “closet” slavery as in the case of sweatshops as F_alk pointed out. It is something that not just “white-men” (after all, not all of us are white :wink:) but all of Western Society should feel guilty about, to which reperations aren’t the answer.
But for the past, the past is the past. I don’t feel guilty for what my ancestors did in the past (in regard to slaves) as it is on their behalf (if I did my mind would split), but I feel guilty for what is happening right now. So before, we start cleaning up the past, lets work on cleaning up the present.
In further post, please seperate between past and present for easier reading. :wink:
You forget one thin CC. The corporations are not thinking morally or ethically at all.
I believe someone here used the example of Nike for exploiting slavery. But before you start placing individual blame, look at this. The wages that Nike paid to slaves were above-average wages in the country of choice (Indonesia, Thailand, ect) and highly valued. Nike also raised labor standards in 1998 by, among other things, increasing the minimum working age at shoe factories to 18 (source: Newsweek). How much blame should they recieve, when they actually pay above-average wages (though still pitfully low in Western World Standards)?
@TG:
You forget one thin CC. The corporations are not thinking morally or ethically at all.
I believe someone here used the example of Nike for exploiting slavery. But before you start placing individual blame, look at this. The wages that Nike paid to slaves were above-average wages in the country of choice (Indonesia, Thailand, ect) and highly valued. Nike also raised labor standards in 1998 by, among other things, increasing the minimum working age at shoe factories to 18 (source: Newsweek). How much blame should they recieve, when they actually pay above-average wages (though still pitfully low in Western World Standards)?
thanks TG. This is exactly my point. I am not sure why companies employing in the Pacific Rim need to pay a “Western” salary. If they did, they would certainly not employ there because of shipping costs, tariffs, etc. So question - are the people of X country better or worse off because they are being employed by company Y - especially if Y is paying competative/above average wages, and how is this slavery?
@F_alk:
@cystic:
- Current slave-labor. … …but one has to be realistic and practical we well as morally/ethically.
You forget one thin CC. The corporations are not thinking morally or ethically at all.
right. At the same time, i am having trouble determining how they are acting immorally or unethically. Are they blackmailling people into working free for them? Or tying them down? Or do they just hold guns to these people’s heads? Are they paying them less than other related companies after binding them to contracts? Do they routinely subject these people to dangerous environments? Even in Canada/Germany, many companies do not act “ethically” and those who do we accuse of only doing so in their own selfish interest. Really, i wonder the consequences of these companies moving out of the Pacific Rim wholesale. Would they be blamed for a number of people being out of work? Or would there be cheering and singing in the streets for being freed of this slavery?
You really seem to think that “supply and demand” are a self-controling measure for “the market”, and that the “trickle-down-effect” works.
It doesn’t.
Market laws are man-made laws, they are not unchangable, and not “natural laws”. Still, the ruling paradigm says that “man cannot interfere”, well except for making the market more free, privatizing more gov’t -owned stuff etc. …
unfortunately (in my mind, and in Canada), the opposite happens. The market appears to be increasingly LESS free, with too much becoming public-corporations - gov’t owning businesses that it has no reason or right to own. As for market laws - they are not man-made laws - they are theoretically well-derived laws that only work until they are contravened (much like gravity).
CC, do you know the ratio between the volume of the world-wide trade with derivates compared to the trade with “real” goods and services?
And remember, trading with derivates is nothing more than “economical horsebetting” (you look at the data, and say which horse will win/how a value will change).
The ratio is: derivate trade makes up 16 times the “real” trade. 16 times! The blowing up of the Internet Hype was just a pebble into an ocean compared to that once it blows.
so??? How does this affect my current views on the whole “slavery” issue that we’ve been discussing? And so what? Ok, so derivatives goes crashing down - are we better off being the producers of real goods? Probably - in which case we are the worse off for having cheaper labor “produce” the goods?
As far as this “ratio” is concerned - this does not exactly float my boat. Consider derivatives as rocks. So what if the same rock is traded 16 times to every bushel of wheat - there is a big difference between the two. One has a natural lifespan, the other has a self-determined lifespan, but really - i do not see how this is germaine to the subject.
No, i don’t believe in the Neo-liberal theology. And CC, i must say that i am unpleasantly surprised that you seem to follow that creed.
as i said - just trying to be practical. Really, it would be in my family’s best interest if all that was taken away from us was returned. Just because i choose to start the page fresh and consider that to be the most practical outlook - this makes me morally corrupt?
I wasnt blaming anyone TG, and if it sounded that way, than i apologize. I simply knew that Nike had been in trouble before for alleged slave labor, so I used them as an example.
Am I’m not blaming you either. :wink:
I just wanted to say, that there are two sides to a coin.
@TG:
In further post, please seperate between past and present for easier reading. :wink:
I will do my best :)
I believe someone here used the example of Nike for exploiting slavery. … Nike also raised labor standards in 1998 by, among other things, increasing the minimum working age at shoe factories to 18…
Nike is the only one example known to me, where a company changed the working conditions in its sweat shops due to public pressure.
There was something about that in the book i mentioned, but can’t find it at the moment.
@cystic:
Are they blackmailling people into working free for them? Or tying them down? Or do they just hold guns to these people’s heads? Are they paying them less than other related companies after binding them to contracts? Do they routinely subject these people to dangerous environments?
Well, surely the barbed wire around the run-down houses (can you say barracks, or is that an army only term?) and the armed militia is only there to keep others out, and not to keep some in that work their happily 14-16 hours a day, in China even 7 days a week. Surely these sweat shops help the country in which they are built by not paying taxes on import (for ressources), export or any other taxes, as they are put up in free-trade-areas.
And yes, they are placed in dangerous environments. Ever noticed how nice and colourful our toys we import from China are? THe wages make up 6% of the price when you buy it btw, the workers on the other hand have no protection whatsoever from the stuuf that gases out (of the plastic, of the colours).
unfortunately (in my mind, and in Canada), the opposite happens. The market appears to be increasingly LESS free… As for market laws - they are not man-made laws - they are theoretically well-derived laws that only work until they are contravened (much like gravity).
Market laws base on totally un-proven basic assumptions. The “well-derived” part is something that a friend who is doing her PhD there would laugh about, if she is in a good mood. Most of these “laws” were not even created by economists. Have you ever looked at the economy Nobel Prize winners of the last 10-15 years? Ahd what happened to or with their theories? I can’t remember which crash was directly related to which Prize, but i could look that up if you want to. (Thus, there was a not-working-at-all theory which got a Nobel Prize, so much for “well-derived”)
For the gov’t gains influence in Canada. If you say so, i have to believe you, though it is hard to believe that Canada is the only country worldwide that can work against that trend.
so??? How does this affect my current views on the whole “slavery” issue that we’ve been discussing? …
It was to illustrate the fact that you probably have a view of “how economy works” that is far from the facts, but heavily idealizing. IMO it is not better than horsebetting, and i can’t believe in something that makes most of its profit by “advanced gambling”.
@F_alk:
@cystic:
Are they blackmailling people into working free for them? Or tying them down? Or do they just hold guns to these people’s heads? Are they paying them less than other related companies after binding them to contracts? Do they routinely subject these people to dangerous environments?
Well, surely the barbed wire around the run-down houses (can you say barracks, or is that an army only term?) and the armed militia is only there to keep others out, and not to keep some in that work their happily 14-16 hours a day, in China even 7 days a week. Surely these sweat shops help the country in which they are built by not paying taxes on import (for ressources), export or any other taxes, as they are put up in free-trade-areas.
Please. I’m really having a hard time believing that people do not work in these places of their own volition. If i knew this to be true, i certainly would “boycott” these industries.
As for these companies not paying taxes etc. - that is the problem/fault of the governing country. Maybe it is just grateful that some of its populace is actually being employed . . . .
And yes, they are placed in dangerous environments. Ever noticed how nice and colourful our toys we import from China are? THe wages make up 6% of the price when you buy it btw, the workers on the other hand have no protection whatsoever from the stuuf that gases out (of the plastic, of the colours).
i really don’t care what the money i spend on a product goes to pay - as long as its not funding violence directly as far as i can determine. It can pay 1% - i don’t care. These workers have a choice.
I do have a problem with them working in toxic environments without safe conditions (masks etc.). Maybe they should petition their government/company for safer working environments.
unfortunately (in my mind, and in Canada), the opposite happens. The market appears to be increasingly LESS free… As for market laws - they are not man-made laws - they are theoretically well-derived laws that only work until they are contravened (much like gravity).
Market laws base on totally un-proven basic assumptions. The “well-derived” part is something that a friend who is doing her PhD there would laugh about, if she is in a good mood. Most of these “laws” were not even created by economists. Have you ever looked at the economy Nobel Prize winners of the last 10-15 years? Ahd what happened to or with their theories? I can’t remember which crash was directly related to which Prize, but i could look that up if you want to. (Thus, there was a not-working-at-all theory which got a Nobel Prize, so much for “well-derived”)
Ahhhh - scrutinizing economics nobel prize laureates. I think this is around 2487 on my “to-do” list. You will have a hard time demonstrating to me that supply and demand of labor and products do not drive their respective markets.
For the gov’t gains influence in Canada. If you say so, i have to believe you, though it is hard to believe that Canada is the only country worldwide that can work against that trend.
If it is not Canada per se, it is the individual provinces. I am happy to see the gov’t spin off crown corporations (well - i have a problem with them spinning off profitible ones) as the one thing that the gov’t sucks most at is efficiency.
so??? How does this affect my current views on the whole “slavery” issue that we’ve been discussing? …
It was to illustrate the fact that you probably have a view of “how economy works” that is far from the facts, but heavily idealizing. IMO it is not better than horsebetting, and i can’t believe in something that makes most of its profit by “advanced gambling”.
I really don’t care. This has no bearing on the discussions on “reparations to slaves-descendents” or “putting out of work employers in 3rd world nations”. If i can make money off of derivatives - great, if i lose money - my problem. And you are right - it is a form of gambling as even economists are only correct 50% of the time. So what? Unfortunately we don’t have much more to go on than applying realistic conditions to idealized models.
Please. I’m really having a hard time believing that people do not work in these places of their own volition. If i knew this to be true, i certainly would “boycott” these industries.
As for these companies not paying taxes etc. - that is the problem/fault of the governing country. Maybe it is just grateful that some of its populace is actually being employed . . . .
Ah, there are worst things than slavery like homeless unemployment. As for the conditions that F_alk mention, I know that they are not true everywhere. I know of workers that live in factories in China that get paid very little ($50-100 a month – again compared to our standards). But at least they have a place to stay and are fed, and from what I heard, those jobs are highly valued. Though the corporation that employs these workers is making much more from their surplus labor (what is fair?), they are at least paid something. It’s not our fault (the average Joe of the Western World) for not doing anything about, but lies more in the government and of the corporations themselves.
@cystic:
As for these companies not paying taxes etc. - that is the problem/fault of the governing country. Maybe it is just grateful that some of its populace is actually being employed . . . .
I bet the quote
“from now on political leaders are under the control of the financial markets” of Mr Tietmeyer, President of the Bundesbank, at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, 3rd February, 1996 is unknown to you…. can oyu imagine the reaction of the political leaders that were listening? minutes-long applause…
So, yes, it probably is “gratefulness” that someone allows them to pick up some crumbs from the dirty floor.
You probably have heard of the so-called “Washington Consensus”, which was giving the framework for economical policies for the last 10ish years.
It is quite nice to see even the World Bank admit its failure!
(We will see wether that actually changes anything in the situation. The world bank is pretty famous for admitting flaws and failure, then working some years over it before not changing the important points)
There also is list of the “10 commandments” of the Consensus in their commented and edited form by their creator j. Williamson
i really don’t care what the money i spend on a product goes to pay - as long as its not funding violence directly as far as i can determine. It can pay 1% - i don’t care. These workers have a choice.
Which choice?
I do have a problem with them working in toxic environments without safe conditions (masks etc.). Maybe they should petition their government/company for safer working environments.
That would mean that the state needs to put up barriers, and controls, and has to fund these controls….
Of course that would reduce the profit for the company.
Market laws base on totally un-proven basic assumptions….Most of these “laws” were not even created by economists…
… You will have a hard time demonstrating to me that supply and demand of labor and products do not drive their respective markets.
Well, man can create demand (that’s by the way were most of the money you pay for product goes to). Why is “creation of demand” allowed, but “controling the flux of money” is something man should not do?
I really don’t care. This has no bearing on the discussions on “reparations to slaves-descendents” or “putting out of work employers in 3rd world nations”.
Not directly, true. But you’d be a pretty bad doctor if you look at your patients’ symptons only and do not think of its possible causes. And i don’t think that you are a bad doctor.
If i can make money off of derivatives - great, if i lose money - my problem. And you are right - it is a form of gambling as even economists are only correct 50% of the time. So what?
You only need about 5% equity capital to start these gambles. So, if you lose, it is not your problem.
And how can economists not be 99%+ right, when they have these “theoretically well derived laws”. That is a shameful rate for a scientist.
Unfortunately we don’t have much more to go on than applying realistic conditions to idealized models.
It works much better in all other sciences. That’s why i do not really accept MBA’s as scientists.
@TG:
…but lies more in the government and of the corporations themselves.
But: wasn’t it so that the one and only responsibility of a corporation is to make maximum profit?
Not directly, true. But you’d be a pretty bad doctor if you look at your patients’ symptons only and do not think of its possible causes. And i don’t think that you are a bad doctor.
How would paying reperations to decendents of slaves benefit 3rd World Countries paying higher wages to workers?
But: wasn’t it so that the one and only responsibility of a corporation is to make maximum profit?
Of course, though not every corporation is concerned with that.
@TG:
How would paying reperations to decendents of slaves benefit 3rd World Countries paying higher wages to workers?
It might be important for the question of “guilt of the whites”
