Should white people feel guility?

[DeviantScripter]

Exactly.

I forgot, but who was it that called Colin Powell an “uncle tom sell-out” or something to that effect? In any event, I gaurentee you that it was someone who was beneath him in both reputation and respect. :wink:

[waraxis]

I’m glad that most of the regulars here agree with me on this subject.
Thanks for the replies. I have the feeling that this guy was a college student and we all know how bad the education is in some colleges!!!

[cystic crypt]

@waraxis:

I’m glad that most of the regulars here agree with me on this subject.
Thanks for the replies. I have the feeling that this guy was a college student and we all know how bad the education is in some colleges!!!

or at least how blunted, ideological, and politicised history the education is.

[waraxis]

You would be suprised Cystic Crypt on how bad some stuff is being taught to college students. I have heard that some proffessors have claimed that the Soviet Union had a better economy than us before they fell apart.

It’s crap like that makes me want to kick some of those proffessors out of the system.

Some proffessors are nothing but ideological.

[cystic crypt]

@waraxis:

You would be suprised Cystic Crypt on how bad some stuff is being taught to college students. I have heard that some proffessors have claimed that the Soviet Union had a better economy than us before they fell apart.

It’s crap like that makes me want to kick some of those proffessors out of the system.

Some proffessors are nothing but ideological.

they tend to focus their stats around ideologies. Certainly the USSR appeared to have a better economy than the US . . . less unemployment, fewer people hovering around an arbitrarily determined poverty line, less discrepancy between rich and poor . . . it all depends on how you define a good economy.
but when a mcdonald’s hamburger costs a week’s wage as opposed to half-hour’s minimum wage, there is something to be said about smart heart health ;)

[Grigoriy Ivanovitch]

@cystic:

but when a mcdonald’s hamburger costs a week’s wage as opposed to half-hour’s minimum wage, there is something to be said about smart heart health ;)

So are you saying the Russian economy was better because it was harder to kill yourself by obesity? :wink:

[waraxis]

:D :lol: :P

Very funny Grigoriy.

But you have to admit that Cystic crypt makes a good point!!!

[Guest]

What we should not forget is the following points:

How much profit did we (westerners) make by the slaves, how much profit did they make for us?
What would be the interest rates that we would charge?
Will we “repay our debts”? That is, give the above money to organizations etc. that work against the injustices that have their roots in the days of slave-trade?

And i am not talking of the situation inside the US, but of all western countries. We still employ de-facto slaves, and do not care. We made up our first wealth on cost of slaves, and now that we are rich, give credits to the countries we exploited before and let them pay the interest (our interest is more important than wether their people get food or not)…

I don’t know wether we should feel guilty, but whoever (of us westerners) uses words like “fairness” or “same chance” should be aware that he/she is in a highly favored position, on cost of continents like South America, Africa and large parts of Asia.

[Field Marshal]

You can expand the original question of this post to include whether or not the German people of today should feel guilty for the sins of the Nazi’s. The Nazi’s deemed my Slavic brothers in Central and Eastern Europe “sub-human” and planned them to be directed to the death/labor camps after the Jews. Do I hold that against the present day German - certainly NOT !

[Yanny]

Yet Germans are still forced to pay Reperations.

[Jazz]

I guess my question about Germany playing reperations would be, are they paying those who were placed in camps and survived? Or are they paying the people who were not there but are decendents of those who were?

[waraxis]

I believe it’s to those who survived the camps. But I thought I heard that Germany also paid the country of Isreal. Does anybody know about the latter??

[Janus1]

i dont think the germans should have to pay reparations, if for no other reason then it wasnt all germans who did this to jews, it was the nazis. and i dont think people today owe any reparations for slavery. we cant hold the people of today responsible for the actions of their ancestors that they never even could have met

[Guest]

Germany paid Israel, and those who did forced labor.
Will the US pay the people who sit in Guantanamo and Diego Garcia?
One of the released (as he was finally found innocent) was promised 2000$ but received only 100$.

@ waraxis: There is a difference between “feeling guilty” and “holding s.th. against s.o.”
I agree with not feeling that much guilt. I more feel responsible, and take up that responsibility.

[Guest]

@Janus1:

…and i dont think people today owe any reparations for slavery. we cant hold the people of today responsible for the actions of their ancestors that they never even could have met

But, you would take the wealth/money of your ancestors’ heritage. Even if that money is blood money.

[Janus1]

my ancestors didnt own slaves. the first ones arrived in the US well after slavery ended, and were either too poor in Europe to have owned slaves, or werent alive while slavery was practiced in Europe (I have researched my family true, I know with as much certainty as can be possible that no one in my family ever owned a slave). Now I take it you didnt specifically mean me, but simply referred to me as an example. so ill answer your question anyway. I think the only people that have any claim to reparations are those who were slaves, and only of their former owners. but since they are all dead by now, their are no due reparations. That is not to say people cant give money on their own, feeling guilt, but it cant be something they are forced to do, as they have no responsibility. Aside from not having been alive to affect the situation in any way, so many things have happened between slavery and today, that even if someones ancestors made wealth from slavery, that money may not have any affect today. The people could be poor today, or wealthy by other means, their money did not necessarily come to them from their ancestors. Not to mention, I would say that most likely every one on earth, or close to it, has at least one person in their ancestry that once did something terrible to someone else and got money for it. should we hold them responsible too? of course not. and its not really blood money, because generally that applies to money for a murder, or assasination

[Jazz]

I too find myself in agreement with Janus1, must be something in the water :wink:

My mothers half of the family came to America from eastern europe in the 1930’s. My fathers side of the family I dont really know, I have seen my family name “schneider” in the service of the Union army in the civil war, however i think my last name in Germany (where my paps family was) is kinda like smith or Jones here.

I digress, should those who decended from my mothers side of the family pay for something that took place nearly 100 years prior to their arrival in the country?

[Janus1]

should those who decended from my mothers side of the family pay for something that took place nearly 100 years prior to their arrival in the country?

Of course they shouldn’t. Should they feel bad that it took place? Absolutely, everyone should feel bad it took place, but it shouldn’t rule your life. And if you want to contribute money to a Black rights group, or if you want to pay reparations, you can go ahead, but to make people is just shameful.

[Guest]

@Janus1:

my ancestors didnt own slaves…. Now I take it you didnt specifically mean me, but simply referred to me as an example.

Yes, and … if you follow the logic of neo-liberlism… your family will have profited as well form the slaves, as that made goods cheaper which your family then was able to afford.
How can you be innocent if you buy the stuff that slaves have produced?

…I think the only people that have any claim to reparations are those who were slaves, and only of their former owners. but since they are all dead by now, their are no due reparations.

here i disagree. If your dad accumulates debts, the banks will make sure that they get the money upon his death of his descendants. Why should this hold true for more or less every part of our lives except where human rights are and have been violated?
For the “former owners”: See above. The german industry then would not have had to pay any reparations to the forced laborers, as these were “owned” by the SS, which run a “rent-a-slave” at that time. So, the industry rented the laborers for minimum prices, but never “owned” them.
If you profit from slave labor, you should pay for it. No matter wether you are on the producer or consumer side.

That is not to say people cant give money on their own, feeling guilt, but it cant be something they are forced to do, as they have no responsibility. Aside from not having been alive to affect the situation in any way, so many things have happened between slavery and today,

… like what?
Look up “sweat shops” or “sweatshops” in google. In german there is a term “debt-menial”, describing the situation of people like in … was it “Grapes of wrath”?..
This again is commonplace, everywhere in the third world.
So, there is de-facto slavery. We don’t see it, we profit from it. We as consumers and especially the producers should pay for it.
But, breaking human rights seems to be not a crime as long as there is profit adn “shareholder value” behind it.

that even if someones ancestors made wealth from slavery, that money may not have any affect today. The people could be poor today, or wealthy by other means, their money did not necessarily come to them from their ancestors. Not to mention, I would say that most likely every one on earth, or close to it, has at least one person in their ancestry that once did something terrible to someone else and got money for it. should we hold them responsible too? of course not. and its not really blood money, because generally that applies to money for a murder, or assasination

I strongly disagree.
First, the term blood money no longer refers to murder etc. only.
Second: we as the western societies profited of slaves, some cooperations and individuals still profit from it.
Sure, people could be poor today. But how to become wealthy another way, with explicitly not profiting from the stoeln wealth of your society? That is pretty important: i can become rich with clean hands, just by “out-sourcing” the dirty jobs.
For the individual guilt: i cannot let that count. Because it was not an individual doing something to another individual. At least, the one doing it didn’t see his victim as an individual, but as part of a mass (in the case of slavery). And slavery is not the only exploitation we have done, we stole all the ressources, human work-power was only one of them.
Germany had very few colonies, most of the “slaves” were natives. Still, we profited a lot from the cheap rubber that we bought of the English,
we profited of the cheap products that were produced by slaves elsewere.
No western society has clean hands, as the economies of us have been interweaved for quite some time. How else would an idea like Merkantilism would have risen, if the economies were independant in the first place??

And remember, i am not talking of US slavery only, but of western societies.

@Jazz:

I digress, should those who decended from my mothers side of the family pay for something that took place nearly 100 years prior to their arrival in the country … Absolutely, everyone should feel bad it took place…

It still takes place. It is getting worse. Do we pay or feel bad for it today, now, at this instant ???

[Janus1]

if you follow the logic of neo-liberlism

I dont follow the logic of neo-liberalism, I would say it is not logic at all

How can you be innocent if you buy the stuff that slaves have produced?

See now, thats just absurd.
First of all, I have never bought anything a slave produced
Second of all, like you said, slave made products were cheaper, not only because of that, but also because they were domestic goods, and did not have tariffs (this is within the US of course). are you going to make poor people buy more expensive goods?

If your dad accumulates debts, the banks will make sure that they get the money upon his death of his descendants

this is not the same as making descendants of slave owners pay reparations. The main difference being, that its not the same institution collecting from different debtors, its a different one. Its not like the scenario you said, where the dad died, but the bank is still there, its the dad died, and the bank died, and someone who used to work at the bank is trying to collect the money. To use a crude example, has anyone ever seen Family Guy? In one episode, a white man (the main character) discovers he has a black ancestor that used to be a slave. He also discovers that his inlaws are the decendants of his ancestor’s owners. He makes them pay him for this. Does he deserve any money for that?

If you profit from slave labor, you should pay for it. No matter wether you are on the producer or consumer side.

Ah, does that include the African tribes that “worked” for slave traders by providing them with slaves in exchange for liquor, and trinkets, and such? Does that mean they should pay reparations as well? or does it not apply to the slave trade?

so many things have happened between slavery and today,

… like what?

Its called a complete sentence Falk, why dont you read the full sentence before replying to a part of it, as the second part contains my point, the part you responded to applies to it.

This again is commonplace, everywhere in the third world.
So, there is de-facto slavery. We don’t see it, we profit from it. We as consumers and especially the producers should pay for it.
But, breaking human rights seems to be not a crime as long as there is profit adn “shareholder value” behind it.

This is unrelated to making people pay reparations for slavery, it has no relevance. Notice you said third world, as in, thats where the producers are, since we agree they should pay, go after them. I disagree with you that consumers should pay, but thats the foundation of this argument. you also use the word profit. If the term consumer is used, this applies also to people who buy, say, Nikes which are made in sweatshops, then you are saying that they profit from this, which is not true, they save money perhaps, something entirely different (but with the price of nikes, they may not actually be transferring these savings onto the consumers.)

First, the term blood money no longer refers to murder etc. only.

……? is that it? thats all you have to say on that? what a good argument, simply saying what i said is no longer true, youve convinced me.

we as the western societies profited of slaves, some cooperations and individuals still profit from it.

Name some. give me some examples of these, and also, are we talking about the slavery that was conducted up till the 13th amendment? Or the “slavery” that is being conducted today, in which case, that is irrelevant

Sure, people could be poor today.

Dont tell me you are disputing the fact that people are poor? please dont tell me that

But how to become wealthy another way, with explicitly not profiting from the stoeln wealth of your society?

this is logic along the same lines as saying “how to drink without drinking the same water as dinosaurs did?” thats ridiculous. and its my society now? you can take it, and criticize it all you want, but dont call it mine.

Because it was not an individual doing something to another individual.

By that logic, individuals should not have to repay individuals, because it was not an individual doing something to another individual, another difference in your dad’s debts to the bank scenario

No western society has clean hands, as the economies of us have been interweaved for quite some time.

No society on earth has clean hands. Every economy is interweaved, its a global economy. Western economies have effects on Eastern economies, and vice versa. Eastern economies also have their own evils to worry about