Bidding Systems

[Linkon]

Placement of units seems to be common in bidding.

I wonder how it work out using both RR and a bid, but the bid is only in Round 1 cash.

[DarthMaximus]

That might be something cool to try.  My hunch is you’d need to bid a little higher b/c you couldn’t put units into immediate action on G1.  Like in Afr for example, a cash bid wouldn’t help Ger with Egy, maybe you’d have to start at 15 in and go up.

You’d probably end up with Germany pretty stacked in Europe but that is about it, almost like a delayed PE bid.

[theduke]

Here is a new system of bidding too.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=6054.0

This is for Axis and Allies Revised, but you can easily convert it to suit the 2nd edition since all the VC teritories are the same between the 2 editions (except substitute Far East for Bury.)

[DarthMaximus]

Cool, sounds kinda neat.

@AgentSmith:

I’ll have to take your word for it on 24+. I can see how you can win a non-PE 24+, I just personally haven’t seen it. I’ve only played probably 5-6, 24 bid games, and have no idea what a typical club bid is and didn’t want to guess as to how high they may go.

24 PE isn’t even that big of a deal, and neither is 25 or 26 PE. It all comes down to Karelia and if you can stop/delay that you can win always. As for bid in ADS versus LL I will say that I bid higher in ADS than in LL. In LL as you have seen I can and will take 24 or less in ADS never will I do that. Even if your opponent puts down PE 24 if you attack FinNor or nothing at all he must still get the dice to dislodge you from Karelia which in turn means ignoring the fleet. Guess who is more likely to roll bad in this scenario.

Wouldn’t a 26 with:
1 inf, 1 arm on EE and
6 inf on Ukr
be pretty formidable?
I’ll have to look at the numbers tonight.

I’m assuming an arm there because if you going all inf then a bid of 24=25=26.

@AgentSmith:

SUD’s post was over 3 years ago, if the bids he laid out were slightly low then okay. Your objection is duely noted.

Ahh but going back to 2000 he was proclaiming himself an expert on DonRaes board as well as Spring etc. Even worse his strategies really haven’t gotten better over time and he still probably bids low b/c he hasn’t learned yet. Its easy to convince yourself of your greatness when you only play against the paper tigers of the Cd club. :wink:

I just want to make sure we keep this civil and not rehash old club debates.  :-)

As for alternative bidding systems, I still like the negative bid for Russia.

Remove:
1 sub (or trn) from kar sz
3 inf from cauc
1 inf from yak

I think this does a pretty good job, it limits what Russia can do in the Atlantic, and makes a strike in Europe more costly as well as a strike in Man.  You can probably remove 1 more Russian inf somewhere too.  I haven’t tried this in ages, so maybe if it is play tested now it might not be any good, but just thought it might be an option, where you can bid to take units off.

[DarthMaximus]

If you guys wish to continue this please PM me or PM each other and duke it out that way.

This is a very informative thread about a frequently asked question dealing with bidding.

I don’t really care about the history on other sites, as far as I’m concerned SUD has shown his knowledge of A&A here and has contributed much to the A&A forum since he’s been here.  I consider all of his posts “must reads”.

Agent, you too have contributed to this forum, you also make some valuable posts on A&A strat, LL, and overall game mechanics.

We are not here to get everyone thinking the same way, we are here to discuss different options, techniques and strats.  This is a MB afterall.  If we all thought the same there would be no reason to come here.

There are going to be disagreements, but:

1)  keep things civil
2)  keep things focused on strat
3)  leave other board dealings to the other boards or PM each other.

I want people to post here and I’m not in the business of chasing people away or trying to get anyone.  We are talking about a board game here, nothing to get too upset over.  :-D

So, lets get back on topic about Bidding.

I think a minimum bid for me 21.  However, if I played in a club I think I would always bid 24 (possibly 23).  I think I can defeat 23 all day long and can win with 24.  I’m that damn good.  :-)

In RR, I probably wouldn’t bid lower than 12.  If it was Auction I’d start at 15 and see how high I could get then work down.  The key with RR, is Germany will have use of both subs and trn in baltic, plus 6 planes.  that is a huge difference IMO.

I’d bid the same for 3rd and 2nd Ed.  Although, I hate 2-hit BB.  Allied Adv, IMO.

While the W Can sz thing my be an inital set back, it can be worked around, IE an Inf heavy US 1 purchase, as AS suggested.  The Learning curve takes care of that one in about 1-2 games.

Interestly enough, that is how I played prior to the CD.  I never even thought W can was connected to the E can sz.  Huh, go figure.

[DarthMaximus]

@AgentSmith:

We are not here to get everyone thinking the same way, we are here to discuss different options, techniques and strats.  This is a MB afterall.  If we all thought the same there would be no reason to come here.

Yes so let’s make this clear what I am saying.  I care not about the insignificant person of SUD he is not good enough to compare himself to me.

Then there is no need to continue with this, Mr. Cowell.

Take it to PM’s or stay on topic.

[warman1999]

http://www.axisandalliesworldclub.com/bidtotals.asp

gold is  2nd  ed

Omaha is 3rd  ed no  RR

Anzio is RR NO tec

Utah is RR tec after  rd 5

Yes b/c I have yet to see a CD player who actually impresses me with their play.  Until that happens I will uphold my claim that the CD club is inferior b/c the players are inferior.  This is not to say there are no good CD players, but the ones that are all come from PBEM play.  Until the CD player can organicly produce its own cache of talent it will be suspect.

I have yet seen any player from PBEM go straight to the top of the ranking that has came from PBEM in the CD clubs one of the reasons is that they give out the bids too  high to win with a good win %

[DarthMaximus]

Wow, I can’t see how any Axis players would win with those bids.

Warman,
Do you have an avg for avg winning bid for Axis?
Meaning what is the avg bid for all the games where the Axis won?  I’m guessing it has to be a lot higher than the 17.x.  I’m focusing on Gold (2nd ed).

Or to side with Agent, perhaps some poor Allied play.  I’m thinking with an 18 bid, as the Allies, Russia can still hit the Baltic, W sp sz and Ukr (or EE and/or Man) and do poorly in 1 or 2 and still win.

Chances are on G1, one of their battles is going to go bad.

I don’t think the Axis players are leaving themselves any wiggle room, which is why I’d be curious to see the avg bid for those that WIN as the Axis.

Or at least the overall win% of the Allies, as is.
Say avg bid of 17.6 (gold), and 1000 games played that month, if the Allies are winning 700-800 of those games, that should tell the club that your players are bidding too low.  I’d even say if the Allies are winning over 60% on a whole that would suggest Axis players are bidding too low.  Which may as suggest, inexperienced Axis play.

If you assume good to great Allied play, then a good to great Axis player MUST start their bid at 21 (minimum), but I’d probably start at 23 (possibly 24) and capitalize on those players that under bid for the Axis at like 18-20.

[warman1999]

@DarthMaximus:

Wow, I can’t see how any Axis players would win with those bids.

Warman,
Do you have an avg for avg winning bid for Axis?
Meaning what is the avg bid for all the games where the Axis won?  I’m guessing it has to be a lot higher than the 17.x.  I’m focusing on Gold (2nd ed).

here is the win % for everyone in gold (2nd ed) I dont play 2nd ed much myself  but  go to this link and you can see for  yourself what everyones win % is  for both sides
http://www.axisandalliesworldclub.com/indtables.asp?Ruleset=5

[Bashir]

OMG how can so many people have a positive balance as the axis?

[warman1999]

they have a great  tec  strat

[Avin]

So AgentSmith = SexualHarrasmentPanda! I never realized although in hindsight looking at their personas and strategies it seems obvious. Well, AgentPanda, I’m glad you weren’t banned for good, but I do hope you’re able to refrain from as many personal attacks since I definitely appreciate your strategic insights.

[DarthMaximus]

@warman1999:

@DarthMaximus:

Wow, I can’t see how any Axis players would win with those bids.

Warman,
Do you have an avg for avg winning bid for Axis?
Meaning what is the avg bid for all the games where the Axis won?  I’m guessing it has to be a lot higher than the 17.x.  I’m focusing on Gold (2nd ed).

here is the win % for everyone in gold (2nd ed) I dont play 2nd ed much myself  but  go to this link and you can see for  yourself what everyones win % is  for both sides
http://www.axisandalliesworldclub.com/indtables.asp?Ruleset=5

Thanks.
I was also looking for what the “winning bids” would look like for Axis players.  Example, if the avg big is 17, BUT the Allies always win, that would suggest a low bid club wide to me.

I was however able to click on the players and see Avg bid given/taken, and just looking at the top 5, the avg taken was about 18-19.  Slightly higher but not much.

[DarthMaximus]

Agent, do you still Advocate the UK 1 bom buy?

I tend to fall into the lazy mode of just going AC + trn.

But a bom buy on UK 1 (+ save cash) and a bom buy plus inf on US 1 should certainly deter Japan from getting an itchy tech trigger finger.

US can easily go 6 inf, 1 bom and not lose a beat in getting to Afr/Eu.  If the trade off is lower bids by the Axis I’d certainly take it as an Allied player.  They can probably even get away with a bom in rd 2 as well.

[warman1999]

@DarthMaximus:

Agent, do you still Advocate the UK 1 bom buy?

I tend to fall into the lazy mode of just going AC + trn.

But a bom buy on UK 1 (+ save cash) and a bom buy plus inf on US 1 should certainly deter Japan from getting an itchy tech trigger finger.

the problem with going bomber with britt and usa on round 1 helps kep them out of africa
what this does it  enables the axis to grow big and keep britt down to just 5-6 men for each round if they cannot kick axis out of africa real soon. Â

normaly in the games that I play I try to hold the major part of africa for the first 5 rounds this will enable germ to collect around 30 IPC and jap around 45 IPC, that is about 50% of the total IPC’s on the board.

altho I normaly play most of my  games W/O tec  I can see how the ones that use tec  as a workable strat,  japs never buids a factory on the mainland and germ plays it safe with all of it’s battles so they stay strong while jap helps  cover africa for germ along with pushing russ back in asia.

normaly by round 5 japs can afford to roll 6 dice a turn for tec while at most usa can afford to roll 3 and keep men goig to help in africa or to russ, and with britt collecting around 17-22 they cannot afford to roll many tec either exp. when they are getting bombed 2 times a round from germ and jap

I also saw that most here felt that the 2hit BB was a allied adv nope that is a axis adv exp when japs brings their fleet over to the atl, and in the med with the germ BB because  this lets germ get 2-3 loads of men to africa. normaly in a 1 hit game the germ BB is dead after round 2 at the latest (and some 2hit games also but at a cost to the britt air) Â

[DarthMaximus]

But if the Axis are over committing to Afr, then Russia is the victor.  They can be quite a force and with a tactical retreat in the East, they can push back hard against Japan by rd 4.

Regardless of what the UK buys on rd 1, they can still land 4inf, 1 arm in Afr in rd 3, as can the US.

I don’t see how the Germans can hold Afr, without sacrificing too much in Europe.  Esp early on.

If you go 18 bid, with PAfr and don’t place any inf in Europe, you better expect a Russia strike on EE on R2.

You aslo have to worry about a KwangBang if nothing is placed in Man.

If you go PE, then you’re losing Afr early.

The purchase of a US bom will not slow them down.  I’ll often go 2 trns, 2 inf, 1 ftr on US 1, BUT 1 bom 1 trn, 4 inf isn’t much different, nor is 1 bom 6 inf.

UK earning 18-22 can still fill up 3-4 trns, that is still plenty to help defend Kar, esp if Germany continues to send troops to Afr.

You can then go through the Cauc to Per to reclaim Afr if you want.  And in this case you can reinforce Kar and Mos if need be.

This also allows Russia to push back hard against Japan.

Also with 2-hit, I forget does the BB “heal itself” each turn?
Regardless, I’ll trade air to kill the Ger trn, which is all you need to do.

2 ftrs, 1 bom vs. 1 trn, 2-hit bb.  I get two hts, sink your trn and you kill a ftr.  Then I retreat.

I’m not sure Japan can really afford to send many troops to Afr, unless you’re going for an M84 or something.  If you send those troops too early then that frees up Russia to start some trouble.

[DarthMaximus]

Thanks for the response SUD.

I agree, Germany can be very effective by being defensive early.
I’m also not a 3rd ed basher.  I like the change in Can, and submerging subs, but I hate 2 hit BB.

Still not enough though with only ~18 bid.

The Ger tran will be killed on UK 2 if it is still in the Med, and Afr will be reclaimed with one landing when the Allies land in rd 3.

With minimal threat from Ger early, then Russia has lots of options, they don’t have to be a paper tiger.

Trading Ukr (3 ipc) for 3 ter in Afr is a wash, now throw in trading EE, (again need 3 more ipc in afr).  It turns out to be a wash and all you did was weaken yourself in Europe, and allow Russia to be that much stronger.

You end up spending 12 IPC (4 inf), for what?  Egy, Ken, IEA, Uosa, and Syr are 7 IPC.  Two turns up 14 IPC.  Okay maybe a little ahead but it cost you possible trading of Ukr and now forced to trade EE.

I think it is a sound strat, it is EXACTLY what I do when playing as the Axis, with some slight variations including not giving up EE,  BUT I think you need minimum 21.Â

[DarthMaximus]

Some redundancy in there I see in some of the quotes.  :-D

Agent elaborated on some things I didn’t have time to bring up.

Consider an Afr bid with 1-2 inf to Asia to prevent KwangBang.

On R1, your looking at attacks on:
1 - baltic
2 - w sp sz
3 - ukr

results
1 - sub submerges
2 - sub chased off
3 - Russia takes with 4 inf, 3 arm (but can always retreat if rd 1 went bad, or can just strafe)
The pt is Russia has the initiative there and can call the shots.  Whether they attack with 6-2, 7-2, 8-2, or 8-3.

That leaves G1
1 - uk sz
2 - e can sz
3 - w med bb
4 - sub and egy (or syr)
5 - ukr???

With the loss of the ftr on ukr and two 2-hit UK bb’s the Germans will lose another ftr somewhere (maybe 2 if a Allied trn hits somewhere).

5 - Germany probably won’t hit Ukr, esp if you plan on reinforcing Egy with 2 inf.
Russia can try and entice the Germans to hit Ukr with her 3 tanks sitting there, but that means a retreat to EE and inturn leaves the Germans open to a return strafe.
BUT if German does this that means UK can counter Egy easily (since ger couldn’t afford to send the extra 2 inf AND still counter/strafe ukr).

OR instead Russia can afford an inf or 2 to Per on R1 (no bid to Europe), then UK retreats to Per with 3 inf.  (2-3 ftrs to Cauc or ftr to Yak).

Germany is already looking at a pretty significant Allied force of 5 inf + possible planes in Per/Cauc.

OR the Asia play Agent was talking about.

I do agree with Agent here, that I think you guys are assume the Allies just sit around and don’t do much.  They can really afford to attack at will b/c you can always retreat.  But if you only sit around to defend you are at the mercy of the attacker, not a good place to be.

Here’s a couple sample US buys I do (about 90% of the time)

1 - 3 trn, 4 inf
2 - 2 trn, 2 inf, 1 ftr

But

1 bom, 1 trn, 4 inf isn’t much different

You can still get 4 inf in play on rd 2 + planes and you can still get 6+ inf (or 4 inf, 1 arm) in play on rd 3 if you just buy 1 trn 2 inf on rd 2.  Now if you go 1 trn, 8 inf rd 2 you can still set up shuck-schuck without losing a beat and you are still getting 4 inf, 1 arm to Afr, couple that with 4 inf, 1 arm from UK and Germany will not be holding Afr for very long.  Not with 5 inf (2 rus) mixed into it in Per.  And if UK has 2 boms (bought one rd 1), they have a pretty good reach to cause some real havoc in rds 2 and 3.

[DarthMaximus]

Oh yeah, all that being said, I’ve never actually employed either of these recently (early bom buys), but I’d certainly like to.

I usually play no-tech or an understanding of no-tech, so that worry is removed, but I’m considering trying out some early bom buys, to see if I can really put it into action.

[DarthMaximus]

That’s a great point about the dice roller.

The CD is the sole reason I’m deathly afraid of doing SBR’s.
The CD is absoultely unbelievable in rolling 1’s on SBR’s (or on aa fire in general).  And if you happen to fly over an aa-gun on route to an attack the CD hits like 50% of the time.  It really does roll 1’s at will sometimes.

And if you attack a place with an aa gun look out, cause those guys are great shots.  :-)

I’ve finally warmed back up to SBR’s, but I still won’t on the CD.

The CD is also very good in the tech department.

I still do love inf b/c of the CD.
Man, sometimes those guys really got into grooves, they really seem to perform well, whether it was off or def.