Can Egypt be saved?

[Whackamatt]

This seems to imply you didn’t do a full-strength attack in SZ97.

 Not the case.  The planes I refer to start in Great Britain, so they can’t participate in a SZ97 assault regardless.  The only question is if you use the starting Gibraltar fighter or not. Â

If Germany went with the 2 TT buy then they can dump a serious force in Gibraltar if you didn’t block it, which sacrifices your fighters for nothing.

I’m not seeing the big negative.  I didn’t give all the details, so the airbase Gibraltar move usually involves at least one transport landing in Gibraltar (either the 1TT from Canada, or if one survived in SZ109)  So it would be 2TT vs. 1 TT + 4 FTR.   I’ll take those odds. Â

Plus, those TTs are now not sending an extra 4 units into Russia every turn.
And if German needs to bring planes if at all possible, those planes aren’t attacking the UK fleet in the Med.

I think it’s actually better to land in the French sub-Saharan territories since you can still get to Egypt in 1 more move.  The downside being you can’t get back to London if Germany suddenly does something to change your mind.

Which is why I wouldn’t land there.  Moving them out with no way to return can open up Sealion.  It’s all conditional, of course.

I read about this in posts that were very old, it seems to have fallen out of favor to attacks in Ethiopia or holing up in Egypt. Â

It probably was more favorable in OOB setup and turn order, as well.  As it stands now, I’ll have to investigate.  
The main focus is on protecting Egypt.  If you attack Tobruk, many of your land units will be too far to double back.  If you attack Tobruk UK1, then you’d probably need Ftr support, which would lessen any SZ97 attack.  I’m not sure it’s worth eliminating land units for land units when Italy can reinforce with transports.
I’d say it could work, but it’s very conditional on what your plan is, how you deal with the Italian navy, and where Germany lands its planes.

50% crafting, maybe.  I agree that this won’t happen until J6/7 depending on what the Allies do.  I don’t agree that it is quite so easy to just block Japan with no consequence.  It is difficult to predict what is happening in the Indian Ocean at that stage of the game.  Strategically though the Allies cannot tell the difference between an India-crush and a potential Egypt-crush. Â

I disagree.  You CAN tell.  You get suspicious when Japan isn’t setting up to take the DEI in one fell swoop.  They’re not positioning anything for an after-attack on ANZAC.
Even if you couldn’t, the starting India fleet usually withdraws towards Africa (my experience).  And if Japan doesn’t attack J3, UK can declare war and have blockers lined up. Â

I would expect that India has already lost its blockers trying to prevent the J3/J4 attack on Calcutta. Â

Not me.  Perhaps it’s a style difference.  I know that there is 100% NOTHING India can do to stop Japan from taking it.  The key is to make it as costly as possible.  Japan needs those 3TT purchased Round 1 to take India.  Plus they can declare war on Japan to free Yunnan, the usual landing spot for its airforce that attacks India, moving from an airbase and landing in Yunnan.  Deny them a landing spot, and they can’t bring their entire airforce.
I reserve the starting Indian fleet and bring it to Africa.  Then they get offensive if Japan ISN’T crushing India, say an economic grab of the DEI.  I keep one near the West Indies to sail east as a blocker if needed, (meaning Japan has an AB and they can attack with everything).

If London buys blocker DDs for South Africa, then you’re not buying the 2x Mech Inf that need to be trickling up north to save Egypt from Italy.  I’m sure India won’t buy any replacement blockers because their income is about to drop dramatically and they need to avoid losing Calcutta.

They start out with one in South Africa.  Combine with 1DD 1CC 1BB from India, and it’s a lot of blockers.  Neither London nor India need to buy any.

Also, I don’t see how you can reasonably expect the Allies to be able to block everything an Indian Ocean Japanese fleet can threaten. Â

I never said they could.  However, must of what Japan can hit, and more importantly WHEN they get there, make the point moot.  I don’t care if they take Peria if the Germany into Russia assault runs dry, or Italy still doesn’t have Egypt.  They can attack Peria all they like.

You can go back and hit Calcutta,

Not really.  India is buying nothing but Inf.  The amount of land units and air Japan can bring is finite.  If Japan sails past India, then doubles back, that’s another turn for India to buy more fodder, pushing the chance of winning statistically out of reach.
ANZAC is going on the offensive as most of the Japanese navy is out of the theatre, and possibly Russia or the US are moving in.

land in Persia and possibly drop an IC there, go down to force the UK to defend South Africa, or move on to Egypt. Â

By now we’re talking Round 6-7.  Egypt could still be in UK hands with a factory and 7+ Ftrs on it.  Whatever Japan gets there either won’t be enough, or is no longer needed.

If the US is countering with full-on Atlantic buys, then this move is very safe for Japan

Safe in terms of pressure from the US.  I’m not a fan of all-in buys in one theatre over another, so that would never happen with me.  Plus they wouldn’t need the US’s help.  India is helping China, and ANZAC is taking some of the DEI back.
It’s very tough for Japan to take all the DEI and hold them, fend off a slowly building US force, and clear out all of China after handicapping yourself by removing 6 planes, 3 CVs, and 6TTs worth of stuff out of the theatre. Â

and you will still be matching US income after taking the DEI.

And THIS is where the strategy falls apart.  I don’t see how Japan can take the DEI without weakening its initial fleet, meaning less going towards Egypt.  If you buy more TTs and Inf after Round 1, then it’s not as many land units being placed with factories in China.  How much protection do you have against ANZAC which can buy a DD a turn and starts with 3 Ftrs?  What if Russia had 18Inf squatting in Korea?  What if the US had been spending a scant 16 ICs a turn in the pacific?

Lots of advice for Allied players goes for a full London buy round 1 and round 2.

I whole-heartedly disagree with that advice.  Round 1, Yes.  But not a mandatory Round 2 buy.  If Germany does NOT buy naval units Rd2, then they CANNOT make Sealion a success.  They statistically cannot bring enough to London otherwise.  I suppose a caveat would be to watch for them “saving” money for a surprise TT buy, but that’s easy enough to watch for.

I disagree that Italian income doesn’t rise as quickly as Japan’s.  It is not hard to get Italy up to 20 with 1 NO + French & Balkan territory on round 2. Â

We may be discussing two different concepts.  It’s dependent on when Japan attacks.  So if Italy attacks with German support while Japan waits to hold the US off, then yes, Italy can gain more than Japan who is doing nothing but pushing into China.
However, on J1, Japan can get +15 ICs from territory.  If they wait and do a J3 money grab, they’ll get +27ICs not counting a few from China.  
My point was, once Japan pulls the trigger, Italian income will never increase at the same rate.  I have yet to see a turn where Italy gained +27ICs in one Round.  It happens fairly regularly for Japan.
I have been on the winning side where the Italian economy was bigger than Germany’s.  Sealion was a success, and the Allies became confused thereafter.  Italy ran free and I won the game as Japan through VCs.  Italy should never be ignored, for sure.

Very easy to get by taking Gibraltar or Egypt (pushing through to Morocco is also easy but slower).  Germany doesn’t need to place anything there, that is part of my point. Â

Does this go back to Germany taking Gibraltar?  I rarely see that.  Italy starts with 1TT a lot of times, and they gain NOs for taking Greece, or just plain getting land units is more important than stopping non-existent Allied ships from moving into the Med.

Just do the small trickling of naval buys you might have done anyway to annoy the UK in the Atlantic. Â

I would actually welcome such buys as the UK, is you don’t go Sealion, that’s less land units against Russia.

I’ll agree that it can take a while for Italy to exceed UK’s income, but it does not take that long to get close enough as to make no difference.

I agree there.  If you ignore Italy, it’s to the Allies’ peril. Â

I think this relies on too many assumptions: Â

Doesn’t everything in an Axis & Allies forum?  LOL.  That’s why I love this game.  Nothing Past G1 is guaranteed.

So many things can have happened in the Med I don’t think you can argue that the US can be guaranteed to take Rome, especially in a situation where Italy felt safe enough to do heavy Infantry buys I4 & I5.  It’s all speculation that relies on what exactly happened in Egypt.

I agree.  I did not mean to say it was guaranteed, only that some forum posts make it sound impossible.  I think it could happen either way depending on strategies involved and sometimes dice.
Ultimately, I wanted it stated as something to plan against.  All too often in the forums I see speculation about a strategy that ends up with guaranteed victory.  Some people seem to discount all of the other turns that go between them from one round to the next.
I have seen Rome get crushed, and I’ve seen games where the US could do nothing about victory, even though they’d spent everything in the Atlantic.

I would love to be convinced otherwise.

Then game on!  :o)  I hope you’re not right either.  Care for some Triple A games by email?  (Sadly all I have time for, but I can guarantee several turns a day). Â

I disagree that this forfeits an Axis victory.  The opportunity cost for the Axis is much less to seize Egypt at any price than it is for the Allies to hold it at any price.

I didn’t say it forfeits an Axis victory.  I believe it could.  If German has to throw away it’s airforce to take Egypt, then there’s nothing to stop the US fleet.  The key would be in timing of said “throwing away”.

[Guest]

Ill keep it simple this time!

1. Bid middeleast units
2. Dont bid London, no need
3. Dont scramble if you dont get tradevalue 1.5 german planes(not ships) per 1 british fgt. You want to use that genius brain of yours to win, no need to gamble.
4. Sink z97 always
5. Be offencive with UK buys if you can, dont always fall back on 9men turn one.
6. Buy many fighters r2-4 and land them on american carriers when possible, they get 7 moves (3+4).

Try these fun brit1 buys:
5inf, bmbr (ita fleet not safe anywhere but 95/97)
6inf, fgt (rather defencive, but longterm good with US carriers)
5inf, 3mec (good cheap option instead of Egypt IC)
8inf, mec (very defencive, but 1 unit can make a big difference in Egypt)
7inf, tranny (tranny goes south africa)
6inf, mec, sub (joker build)
5inf, 2sub (high risk, high award)
5inf, egypt IC (not as good as it seems, high risk, if you loose it your 100% done for, id recommend buy your units in southafrica and sail/drive up)

[Eqqman]

@ErwinRommel:

Ill keep it simple this time!

1. Bid middeleast units
2. Dont bid London, no need
3. Dont scramble if you dont get tradevalue 1.5 german planes(not ships) per 1 british fgt. You want to use that genius brain of yours to win, no need to gamble.
4. Sink z97 always
5. Be offencive with UK buys if you can, dont always fall back on 9men turn one.
6. Buy many fighters r2-4 and land them on american carriers when possible, they get 7 moves (3+4).)

I almost never ever scramble since I need to save the planes for SZ97.  Assuming a flawless victory there, you have DD, CA, CV, + 2 Fighters to defend against 3x Fighter, 3x Tac, 2x Bomber from a typical German player.  If they planned their landings well they can attack with even more, this setup as it is gives 99% odds with a loss of 3-4 planes.  If the German player is planning on the I2/G3 Barbarossa then these planes have nothing else to do round 2.  The German player can then land as many as they like in Alexandria if it was taken I1 (the assumption being that the UK had to retreat out to cover Cairo).  If the Italian player was left with 2 TTs in I1, then the UK definitely has to pull out from Alexandria.  The German planes then provide cover for a growing Italian stack.  They can then make a suicide hit on Cairo if needed, or be used to kill any fleets hiding in the Red Sea (which might have guard ships that are covering a Cape Town shuck).  None of your points 1-5 solve this option.

The Fighter shuck is an interesting option.  You can skip the Cairo IC and try to shuck Infantry from Cape Town.  Then the Fighter shuck goes London -> French West Africa -> Cairo.  This might work and discourage the German hit to soften up Cairo.  The downside of this is that it is a very defensive plan.  In this situation I foresee the Italians still getting rich off the 3 NOs they can get without taking Cairo.  It will also be very hard for Britain to maintain fighter production if any German subs survived the first turn since you have to make DDs to hunt them down.  The US is not going to be available to do it for them (see below).

I think you (and most of the people who are replying) also are giving too much weight to the ability of the US player to affect events (the idea that the US can just make a bunch of Carriers solely to hold UK planes seems a bit much).  A smart Japanese player will never issue the DoW J1 - J3.  This degrades their ability to get the Pacific win, but who cares, when you will win in Europe in round 6-7.  So in most scenarios the US can do nothing at all in the time available, except maybe keep spitting out Fighters that could possibly land in Cairo US5 if the Allies still hold it.

I’ve been toying with the idea of a naval buy for India round 1 to help get some extra ships over to the Red Sea, or even using the starting TT to help reinforce the attack on Ethiopia.  I’m not convinced either plan is wise since India starts out on such thin ice already.

Gibraltar is a coin toss.  If Germany went heavy against the UK navy G1, then in UK1 you might only have the SZ109 DD & TT.  Is it worth the risk to lighten the defense of London and risk the loss of these ships to a G2 counterattack in order to reinforce Gibraltar?  If Germany did the AC/DD/SS buy, then you will likely lose the ships but hold Gibraltar for quite some time if Italy is trying to keep up with a Cairo arms race.  This is one of the reasons I think Germany should always do the 22 TT buy over the DD/SS buy.  By taking Normandy you clear a place for the Italian bomber to land to clean out any place the UK can leave a blocker if they have the DD left and want to use it.  If they don’t block, or you don’t want to use Italy on the blocker, then just move up the fleet to be in a position to sack it G3.  If the UK defended Cairo with everything they had, the German fleet will be untouchable.  If they didn’t defend Cairo with everything, then perhaps Italy won’t have a problem getting it.  I’ve held Gibraltar in numerous games and it didn’t solve any of my problems in the Med.

@Whackamatt: SZ97 is 5 spaces from London, so your Fighters there can attack it and land on the Carrier.  This means every other air unit in the battle (including the one that started on the Carrier) has to land in Malta.

[BJCard]

Do people actually lose Cairo with a Taranto attack?  Italy is all but out of the game when this happens and requires little additional UK support in Africa, especially if Taranto goes very well for the UK.

[Eqqman]

@BJCard:

Do people actually lose Cairo with a Taranto attack?

You can lose it all too easily, but only if Germany sends it air force south to deal with the UK.  In the vast percentage of games I’ve played, Italy doesn’t scramble at SZ97.  Then either Italy or Germany wipes out the UK remaining in SZ97 (this usually depends on what is left of the French fleet).  So even though you did do a number on Italy, by the end of round 2 they are ready to come back.  If the UK didn’t build the Egypt IC, then they come back quite quickly.  The UK gets off to a nice head start, but if Germany is willing to send their planes down there, the situation turns quite quickly.  Many of my opponents are also mating this with sending a small trickle of subs out into the Atlantic, which slows down the Allies’ ability to bulk up Egypt since you either have less money to spend from convoy losses or you spend your money on DDs.

My typical round 1 progress is to have Italy only collecting 7 IPC, but then in round 2, Germany has Greece, Italy or Germany has Gibraltar, and then Italy is up to 20+ IPC since the UK Med fleet has been wiped out.  More than enough to put holding Cairo into question when the UK has to waste money on ICs or TTs for a Cape Town shuck and the Italians still have their nice chunk of men that started in Tobruk.

Part of what concerns me about Cairo is how quickly Russia can fold.  However, I’ve done some more tests and seen that with max Infantry buys you can get Russia to last past round 6 (how much longer past that they can go, I’m not sure, as their income will basically be pretty nil).  So I think the Allies should certainly focus on making Cairo a crisis point for the Axis.  If the Axis don’t divert all their resources to taking it out, then Italy will be out of the game sooner rather than later.  I think this is more cost-effective than threatening the Axis through northern Europe since the US player is free to spend more in the Pacific and ensure than Japan will never be a problem.

[BJCard]

True, if germany commits significant support to the Med then Italy can get Cairo.  To be honest I haven’t seen that happen very much in my games.

[Eqqman]

@BJCard:

True, if germany commits significant support to the Med then Italy can get Cairo.  To be honest I haven’t seen that happen very much in my games.

Whatever you see is likely just a direct response to whatever level of interest you are showing yourself down there.  If you start making moves that threaten Italy’s long-term viability, expect your opponent to suddenly show a keen interest in wiping Cairo out.

[elevenjerk]

I will start by saying forgive me for not knowing exact details as this was a game awhile ago. We also play till the other surrenders. With that said……

I had a game that turned into a battle for Cairo.  I was the allies and had purchased a minor IC UK2 maybe. (Big mistake so early in that particular game)  He focused a lot of Germany into helping Italy get Cairo. If I remember correctly, he had bought a couple AC, TT, and maybe a DD.  Attacked russia G2 I think.  Japan waited till J4 I believe.  He was able to control it for the most part but it turned when Germany was the only one that could take it back over around G5 or G6.  By then america was in at Gibraltar threatening the multiple territories they can from there.  I chose to leave it in Germany’s hands since they had no money to put into it with their focus in Russia and protecting the homeland.

I think the axis surrender happened in round 12 or 13.

That was the only time in our games that the axis were the dominant controller of Cairo and the Allies still won with not much scare of losing.

[Eqqman]

@elevenjerk:

That was the only time in our games that the axis were the dominant controller of Cairo and the Allies still won with not much scare of losing.

If Russia held out and was in no danger of going under in the next few turns, then yes, you can handle losing Cairo- especially if the Axis committed a lot to it.

[Whackamatt]

As the Allies, Egypt is the hardest victory city to defend.  It has no factory, and is the furthest away from all other factories.  As the European Axis need 4 out of 6 from Russia & the UK, If Russia completely falls, then it’s either London or Cairo.  London is much easier to defend.  All effort should be made to save it.

I will say that Russia can fall Round 6 most of the time (with the exception of bad dice) with my G1 move.  But that doesn’t mean victory, as I haven’t found a consistent way to then take Egypt or London thereafter in all of my theory-crafting games.

[Guest]

I will say that Russia can fall Round 6 most of the time (with the exception of bad dice) with my G1 move

There is realy no real way to do this reliably.

[Whackamatt]

never say never in the world of Axis and Allies.  I’m pretty sure I’ve found a way, but as stated, has enough drawbacks of its own.  I could show you in a friendly game.  8-)