I’ve never done it myself, but my impression is that the game is severely imbalanced in favor of Japan, so start with a 30-50 IPC bid for the Allies, and revise from there.
Pointlessly Broken
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OK, I have studied both of the games you posted, for about an hour.
I see what you mean about the sword one being more effective.I do have some ideas.
- Can’t the USA deny Japan taking British Colombia on J3 by moving everything to defend British Columbia, blocking Z9 to protect WUS and blocking Z7 to block the Z6 transports from attacking British Columbia?
Perhaps Japan could prevent this by leaving ships in Z7, clearing the whole path to Canada. The ANZAC cruiser should be moved to Z26 on ANZ1, though, and possibly with some positioning of the USA fleet in Hawaii or other places, the express lane to Canada can be clogged.
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Why didn’t the ANZAC fleet go straight north immediately?
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Why not have UK build a bomber on UK1, fly it to Queensland on UK2, and to WUS on UK3?
I don’t know about 2nd edition, but Japan was nigh unto unstoppable in OOB. They had a better chance of winning NOT going for USA first, even though they had a decent (30-70% depending) chance of winning that way. Like Zhukov said, Pacific is unbalanced and needs a bid. Even a small bid of 3 or 6 would give USA an infantry or 2 that could be huge in stopping this.
But now that I’ve studied the 2 games, I think I will make the Allies round 1 move.
Zhukov - can you explain to me why it is not fair to ask a live player to test a strat with a pbem game? I don’t understand the problem, nor why he’s claiming it took him THREE HOURS to do a J1. I took care of setting up the thread and the game with the e-mail addresses and told him what to click. He got stuck on the “password” and I told him to use his e-mail password. Then he went crazy telling me what a jerk I was for wanting to play by forum… I don’t understand.
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Zhukov - can you explain to me why it is not fair to ask a live player to test a strat with a pbem game?
Sometimes live players do not find pbem fun, at least at first. We play A&A to have fun, so if he’s not having fun perhaps he’s feeling frustrated.
On the other hand, it’s easy for anyone familiar with TripleA and forums to get used to Triplea by forum, once they get past the things some people find tedious (how long it takes TripleA files to load, waiting for opponents to post etc).
The format of pbf should be easy for anyone familiar with TripleA. But the ‘art’ of playing by pbem takes longer to master.
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Thanks
US1 is done. I did something very different than in the sword game, moving the USA fleet to Hawaii. It is very safe for J2, and is in much better position to possibly clog sea lanes.
Also, in the sword game a destroyer and cruiser were used as blockers on US1 that are unnecessary. USA has sufficient forces without even buying artillery to keep the Japanese from taking and holding British Columbia. It appears the intent of the blockers was to prevent a landing on Br Col on J2, but I find this wholly unnecessary. I am using 2 destroyer blockers to keep the USA fleet safe at Pearl Harbor for J2.
Debated about keeping the 2 infantry in Hawaii, but was nervous about being able to get them to USA later, and they help with the threat to take back Br Columbia.
Finishing other allies now. Will be buying bomber UK1, I think.
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Round 1 is in the books.
I do believe I’ve improved the Allied response significantly from the Sword game.
Meanwhile, VonL is pitching a fit because he’s so opposed to playing by forum. Jeez, it’s a 3 round strategy, we’re 1/3 done already. You only have 2 more moves to make - we’ll be done in a day or two depending on my work schedule.I can’t spend 5 hours at one sitting playing a “live” game. I’m spending about an hour per move, here.
Listen to Zhukov, buck up, and finish the damn game.
Man, I’ve already spent about 4 hours on your stupid idea today - don’t tell me it was all for nothing.
How long do you spend on your moves? You already know what you’re going to do - what will it take, 20 minutes a move? Tops?This one game is going to have to prove things well enough, and I’m pretty sure it will, one way or the other. No way I’m playing more than one game with a guy that freaking bitches as much as you do. Good knight!
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I already explained why it took me 3 hours to do the J1, if you do not read my posts it is your issue, not mine. Read the game thread. I ran into several roadblocks, it wasn’t nearly as simple and quick relative to live as you suggested it would be before I agreed to try it out. I then find out that I also get emails everytime I get dice, and have to filter those out too, plus I have to put my email out to yet another site to even get those dice in the first place. I have enough spam already. Doing my J1 literally takes 5 minutes, but from the time we started discussing it to the time I finally got everything in order, it was nearing 3 hours. We would have easily done an entire test game in that time. By the way, it wasn’t even my email password, I had to use my forum password. One headache after another that got nothing done.
It may be fair to ask me if I would like to play PBF, but it’s not fair to automatically expect that  the test must be done PBF, especially when you were the one who challenged me to the game.
Where did I call you a jerk?
Post 8 in the other thread I suggest that I really don’t want to bother with PBF anymore, it was already more hassle and waste than I expected.
My next post about it, I say “PM me when you have a 2 hour block to test this out. I see no point in waiting for forum posts constantly when it is much easier to play live.” Half an hour after I post my issue with the dice, someone else has to step in to help me with that. At this point I was incredibly frustrated. And I said so.
I was up intially for trying it once, but after twiddling my thumbs for the past two hours while getting exactly 0 rounds of the game in where we could be at round 6 in a live game, I feel severely frustrated and like I am wasting my time.
Constantly checking back in the forum is cool if you don’t have the time to lay aside a couple hours to play or if you are a notoriously slow player, but I want nothing to do with it. It’s been almost half an hour since I posted the issue I was having with dice, and in that half hour we could have done a round.
Gamerman, again, lmk when you got a few hours. It’s nothing personal, but I am very frustrated for this immense waste of my time.
Hardly seems like I am calling you a jerk, because I am not at all. Â I am respectfully as possible telling you that I got way more hassle than I bargained for and was done with it, and was ready and willing to take you up on my original offer of playing anyone live who had the time.
Finally, after an immense amount of time struggling with the format and waiting for help, I posted the turn (reply 15), with the note that it was already too much hassle and unless things sped up significantly I was gonna drop. I then ask how to fix my dice email spam situation, and you respond with this after offering a tip about the email that didn’t really answer my question.
Dude, quit your whining!
First of all, there are a lot more than 11 interested players in the world.
Second of all, Krieghund is about to change the rulebook after one player presents a strategy, with no demonstrations? Â And now you’re not willing to play a game or two on a format you’re slightly unfamiliar with to prove it?What’s the deal, man? Â Are you for real?
After that (and the several following posts trying to goad me into that immense waste of my time that is PBF games by suggesting that I was losing faith in my strategy), I just plain got pissed. You acted like I was against demonstrating my strategy when I have been offering to show it to people (and have done so about a dozen times) since January 25. You tell me that when I don’t want to keep d***ing around with a format that takes much longer, I just need to stop my “whining.” Â
I am NOT going to waste hours of my time playing a game with someone who is not polite and respectful.
Indeed. Calling me a whiner when I get hassle I did not sign up for isn’t respect at all, and neither was your entry into the whole conversation in the first place.
But I REALLY don’t want to take the time to read all your ruminations. Â Just show us the “final” “whiz-bang” strat that you’ve “fine-tuned”, and I’ll see if I can stop it.
We’ve got around half a dozen possible fixes we’re considering, but we’d like to wait a little while and see if someone comes up with a counter (slim chance, I know). Â If no counter is forthcoming in a reasonable amount of time, we’ll publish a fix for testing.
Enter Gamerman  8-)
This was all hashed out in 2010 <yawn></yawn>
What all that says to me is basically this: “I see you posted a lot of stuff on here, but I am an expert so I am not going to bother reading the game summaries and you already posted. Just give me this alleged “strategy” you think is so great and everything will turn out all right because Gamerman  just got here. I am too important to be bothered by actually reading the thread, and I expect your report soon. This stuff is below me anyways; we experts sorted it out years ago.”
I honestly believe I am barely exaggerating.
You almost made a progressive step with your list of ideas, but you don’t even read what I post. I already explained why it took 3 hours to get that turn in, and then you come after me for allegedly calling you a jerk when you call me a whiner and then try to goad me into burning even more time in a PBF game that I was leaving due to it being far more a hassle than you assured me it would be. I really don’t care if the entrance of Gamerman was the best thing that ever happened to this thread. I don’t care if you claim that because I won’t waste so much more of my time in PBF than live, that I was just making this all up. Until you stop taking 100 your way%, and start giving a little, I want nothing to do with anything you got going. Honestly I am not convinced pacific is to me worth all this effort
To put it bluntly, I am not your servant, although you have been treating me as though I were. You challenged me, and I tried to do the PBF, but it is not as simple as you said it was going to be and I see little point in continuing with the utter lack of respect you have shown me because I have not bowed to every wish you have had for your own convenience and comfort, while you ignore my own.
My offer for a live game or two stands, as it has been for almost two weeks now.
It’s still out there, and it will be out there for a while yet. You are in no way obligated to take me up on the offer, but I am in no way obligated to play PBF just because it suits you, expertise or not. My terms are quite reasonable. It will take a lot less time and hassle to play live than by forum. You challenged me to the game, and those are my terms of accepting your challenge.
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I knew vonLettowVorbeck1914 would find a way out of this. Rename this thread ‘Arrogance pointlessly Broken’
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Round 1 is in the books.
I do believe I’ve improved the Allied response significantly from the Sword game.
Meanwhile, VonL is pitching a fit because he’s so opposed to playing by forum. Jeez, it’s a 3 round strategy, we’re 1/3 done already. You only have 2 more moves to make - we’ll be done in a day or two depending on my work schedule.I can’t spend 5 hours at one sitting playing a “live” game. I’m spending about an hour per move, here.
Listen to Zhukov, buck up, and finish the damn game.
Man, I’ve already spent about 4 hours on your stupid idea today - don’t tell me it was all for nothing.
How long do you spend on your moves? You already know what you’re going to do - what will it take, 20 minutes a move? Tops?This one game is going to have to prove things well enough, and I’m pretty sure it will, one way or the other. No way I’m playing more than one game with a guy that freaking bitches as much as you do. Good knight!
I should have read the above before I posted my most recent post.
I am NOT going to waste hours of my time playing a game with someone who is not polite and respectful.
Talk about hyposcrisy.
Anyways, goodbye.
If anyone else would like to set up a time to play live on TripleA, shoot me a PM.
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HOLY CRAP, I’m not reading all of that! You’re complaining about PBF being inconvenient, but you have no trouble bitching and moaning for a huge, whole diatribe!
Fine, don’t make your next 2 moves. Maybe you didn’t call me a jerk, but I’m calling you one right now. And that’s being nice. Thanks for wasting freaking 4 hours of my time today.
Krieghund, whatever you do, don’t change the rules for this blow-hard.
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@Imperious:
I knew vonLettowVorbeck1914 would find a way out of this. Rename this thread ‘Arrogance pointlessly Broken’
AMEN
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HOLY CRAP, I’m not reading all of that! Â You’re complaining about PBF being inconvenient, but you have no trouble bitching and moaning for a huge, whole diatribe!
Fine, don’t make your next 2 moves. Â Maybe you didn’t call me a jerk, but I’m calling you one right now. Â And that’s being nice. Â Thanks for wasting freaking 4 hours of my time today.
Krieghund, whatever you do, don’t change the rules for this blow-hard.
20 mins explaining myself vs playing a game with an arrogant feller who really does think he’s god’s gift to axis and allies?
Easy choice for me.
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20 mins explaining myself vs playing a game with an arrogant feller who really does think he’s god’s gift to axis and allies?
Don’t talk about yourself in the third person.
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@Imperious:
20 mins explaining myself vs playing a game with an arrogant feller who really does think he’s god’s gift to axis and allies?
Don’t talk about yourself in the third person.
IL, don’t pout because Saber (edit: Sword) came up with this strat before you did. I know it’s super important to you to have thought of things before everyone else, but life goes on, as the saying goes.
(Btw, how do I know he came up with it before you did? Because if you did, you would have made sure EVERYONE you could find not only knew about it, but also knew that it was YOU who came up with it.)
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IL, don’t pout because Saber (edit: Sword) came up with this strat before you did. I know it’s super important to you to have thought of things before everyone else, but life goes on, as the saying goes.
(Btw, how do I know he came up with it before you did? Because if you did, you would have made sure EVERYONE you could find not only knew about it, but also knew that it was YOU who came up with it.)
Don’t place your failures on my lap. Take ownership of terrible ideas that get proven wrong.
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To any observors: PLEASE feel free to comment directly to this thread if you have any ideas about what should be done next by either of us, or what should have been done differently.
We are both TRYING to play the optimal strat for Japan and the Allies both. If we can both play an optimal strategy, then people won’t have to play a lot more games to figure this question out. It’s POSSIBLE we can settle the issue one way or the other with a single game, but only if we’re making really good moves.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=29837.new#new
Link to the game between vonLettow and mevonLettow did make a J2, so the game is indeed being played
I will be making the Allies 2nd round moves within hoursI invite suggestions for improvement of Allied or Japanese play directly to the thread - see quote above
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Copy of my thoughts/conclusions from the game thread:
I’m not seeing a way to stop the landing of 24 ground units on British Columbia on J3.
This means Japan can attack J4 with 16 INF, 7 ART, 1 ARM, 11 FTR, 8 TAC, and 2 BMB. I don’t think that fact can be changed.
However, it is possible for the Allies to get some extra defense to WUS.- Buy 5 INF US1
- Buy BMB UK1, TP ANZ1
- Buy 6 INF US2
- Buy naval base for Samoa UK2
- Move 2 loaded transports to Samoa ANZ2
- Buy 5 INF, AA, ARM, 3 FTR US3
- Fly in UK bomber
8- Fly in 3 ANZ fighters - Transport 4 ground units from Samoa
The 4 ground units from ANZAC can probably be stopped? by parking some Japanese fleet in Z10. However, some ships will be needed to protect 6 transports that will be moving into Z1. But maybe the US fleet is sitting in Z10 protected by potential scrambles. I don’t know if the Japanese player would attack the US fleet, but if they don’t, the 4 ANZAC units cannot be stopped from making it to the US on ANZ3.
If ANZAC ground units are stopped, then the Allies are defending with 21 INF, ART, 2 AA, ARM, TAC, 11 FTR, 1 BMB
Assuming 1 fighter shot down by AA, the odds are 95% chance of taking WUS. Median result is Japan survives with the tank and 13 aircraft. Upper quartile is 17 aircraft, 3rd quartile is 9 aircraft.
However, if you have 4 ANZAC ground units on top of that, for a total of 25 INF, then
the odds are only 72.8% chance of victory. Median result is Japan survives with 7 aircraft. Upper quartile is 11 aircraft, 3rd quartile is FAILURE - game over. 70/30 percentile has Japan winning, but with only 1 or 2 bombers remaining.If the Allies build maximum defense builds with the USA every turn, fly in a UK bomber and 3 ANZAC fighters, and get 4 ANZAC infantry in, the Allies have a very good chance of winning. If WUS falls but Japan only survives with a handful of planes, the Allies still have a good chance of winning.
As Zhukov pointed out, P40 has always been unbalanced in favor of Japan. Running the “traditional” strategy of going after India and China first should still be successful a higher percentage of the time than going KUSAF.
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In other words, the game is not “pointlessly broken”, it just needs a small bid like Classic, Revised, AA50, and G40 all need.
A couple of infantry go a LONG way to definitely making this strategy a poor one. A bid of 6 or 9 putting 2 or 3 infantry in WUS should deter the Japanese player from even thinking about it.
Krieghund, I don’t think that any significant rule changes are needed to prevent this tactic. Japan has a really good chance of success (probably better chance than if she goes straight for WUS, bid or no) going the traditional route anyway - with no rule changes or bids.
That’s my opinion after many hours of study, and playing with VonLettow
Happy gaming, everybody!
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In other words, the game is not “pointlessly broken”, it just needs a small bid like Classic, Revised, AA50, and G40 all need.
A bid is a fix to what is broken. IMO, if it NEEDS a bid to be balanced, then the game without the bid (the official game, the game all the tests used) is broken.
Bids are not official and never have been (and I doubt they will be instituted here as official), so are you asking for 2 or 3 more US infantry added to the setup? Recall that Krieghund was hoping to avoid setup changes.
Bids work fine for players in the everyday situations, but from what I can tell they are not a realistic option for an official rule (as in what would be in the rulebook). Krieghund, please correct me if I am wrong.
Wait a bit before you say that Japan has a better chance with traditional Calcutta/Syndey. If the allies are selling out (like they are in your game at the moment) to protect USA, it will be even more of a cakewalk for Japan once they do take W USA. Like it seems you said, the ANZAC trns can be blocked fairly easily.
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The game had a bid before, and not due to a failed discovery on your part.
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@Imperious:
The game had a bid before, and not due to a failed discovery on your part.
Not really sure what your point is. Would an allied bid of 9 for this game really have been spent on 3 infantry for USA before Sword rocked my US military? Was a bid for allies an official rule?
I don’t see why saying the game is fine with a bid means the official game is fine.
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Dude, you are out to lunch.
Like I said, if needing a small bid makes this broken, then pretty much every Axis and Allies game I’ve ever played was “broken”, with Classic being the worst.
Like, what’s your point?
Of course Krieghund would like to avoid changing the starting setup. No, bids aren’t “official rules” but EVERYBODY uses them on this site, in leagues, tournaments, every single game. We don’t go around saying all the games are BROKEN.Do you get some thrill out of announcing that there’s an elephant in the room?
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