Pointlessly Broken

[Eqqman]

@Krieghund:

I’ve been mulling this over, and I’m not sure this strategy is unbeatable.  The US can move blockers to sea zones 8 and 9, keeping Japan from taking Western Canada before turn 3.

I might be wrong, but blockers in SZ7 & 15 US1 and blockers in SZ8 & 9 US2 should stop the attack on Canada until turn 4.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

I don’t think it applies in Global at all. USA has 52 IPC when not at war, not 17 like in Pac. The Easr and Central USA factory and reinforcements make it a non issue unless Germany is somehow also threatening USA. Additionally, in Global, W USA is not the US capital so taking it doesn’t knock them out.

Hardly anybody plays pac from what I understand, so it’s not surprising that it’s got a glitch. The most important thing to remember here is that this strat was executed by a guy who was on the map for the first time. They seem to be the real innovators.

From what I have seen, USA just can’t afford to try to take out the japanese navy. They can’t stop the Canada invasion with their navy, so if they try to go naval, USA is a cakewalk. The more ships/Planes the USA buys, the more DD’s Japan can buy.

China and india can run amok, but once USA is gone it doesn’t matter. ANZAC can’t block (they can sit a ship there but they can;t block trns from getting there) Pearl before Japan 2.If pearl is going to be saved J2, USA has to do it. If they want to save it, that’s at least 2 inf that won’t be in the battle that really matters.

Even if the Japanese Navy is sunk, it won’t be before more than enough Japanese are in Canada to take W USA. With the 40 something from the US bank and the 15-21 for having W USA and possibly Hawaii, Japan’s fleet can get rebuilt very fast IF the USA is able to take it out.

One thing I found worked great was an airbase in the Aleutians. From there ftr and tac can land in canada after blasting W USA.

If you’re ever on TripleA and see if Saber, I, or MatildaMike are on, see if one of us is available to show you what we saw.

The scariest thing is that I know that I am not doing the strat as well as it can be done. And it is still too good.
So far it’s a bit fuzzy as to what the best US chance is, but it seems like a large land army to hit canada and pray for a win.

[Krieghund]

Trying to take out the Japanese navy is foolishness.  The US needs to abandon Hawaii, get everything back to Western United States that can get there, and build infantry and tanks to be ready for the attack.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

Scenario for Japan at the end of J3 is 12 trns + all of navy  (6 ftr)in SZ 1

Possibly AA guns brought to Canada if you want instead of inf.
PLUS

With Alaska Block: 8 Tac, 5 ftr, 2 bmb in Aleutians.
Without Alaska Block: Same in alaska, Airbase optional.

Undefeatable outside of suicide attacks on canada or navy.

Simple solution: Give USA a 50 bid to spend on AA guns for W USA. Sounds ridiculous, but solves the problem. There is a solution with more finesse probably. (5 aa guns in addition would not be a bad idea at first blush for india, but I haven;t looked at that yet.)

[Eqqman]

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

With Alaska Block: 8 Tac, 5 ftr, 2 bmb in Aleutians.
Without Alaska Block: Same in alaska, Airbase optional.

Does that include the two rounds of SZ blocking I mentioned earlier?

I agree that ANZAC can’t save Hawaii, but I would hope they could send enough there to be enough of a diversion for Japan that it makes a difference to the USA defenses.

[Zhukov44]

Maybe make a rule that if Japan lands in North America (Alaska or Canada or Mexico, not WUSA), then USA gets an extra 12-18 infantry in WUSA at the end of their turn.  This would represent the militia or volunteer force that would materialize if North America was invaded.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Eggman:

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

With Alaska Block: 8 Tac, 5 ftr, 2 bmb in Aleutians.
Without Alaska Block: Same in alaska, Airbase optional.

Does that include the two rounds of SZ blocking I mentioned earlier?

I agree that ANZAC can’t save Hawaii, but I would hope they could send enough there to be enough of a diversion for Japan that it makes a difference to the USA defenses.

I am not actually sure if it’s in Japan’s interest to take hawaii even if it is open.

To be clear, the present strat has Japan’s DOW on J2 (usually). A US1 block of 15 usually does nothing other than waste ships. Japan moves to  14 on J1 with everything they can bring. Unless USA stacks the Aleutian islands US1 (which creates a whole new set of problems for them.) Japan can easily take it.

In order to give Japan some difficulty in taking the Aleutians, USA would need to block 4, 7, and 16 (remember Japan has a transport in 14). To stop a landing in Alaska, they also need to block 8 and 9, or the aleutian block would have been pointless.  USA could then stack the Aleutians with 5 planes and 2-4 inf (or maybe 1 a gun too). In this case, it would be interesting to see if it would be in Japan’s interest to DOW and pick off the easy ships, or just delay their DOW to the next turn and move everything to 14, and the Aleutians  would fall the next turn.
I tend to think killing the 5 lone ships (+ at least 1 trn) would be the best option as there would be almost no block for the Allies to have from a full Canada hit J3, unless USA bought ships and/ or ANZAC moved up (Which again creates more problems for the US if they spent precious inf money on a ship or two).

OF course, the flip side of the coin is that Japan doesn’t HAVE to try for W USA if this happens. They might just be happy for 5 free ship kills and then turn south.

One thing I just thought of: If USA blows 5 ships necessary for the Aleutians/Alaska block, pan can just blast through and NC to SZ 1 with full transports. USA won’t have anything to hit it with. 3 loaded carriers and 2 battleships would do just fine.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Zhukov44:

Maybe make a rule that if Japan lands in North America (Alaska or Canada or Mexico, not WUSA), then USA gets an extra 12-18 infantry in WUSA at the end of their turn.  This would represent the militia or volunteer force that would materialize if North America was invaded.

Welcome Zhukov!

That seems pretty cool and flavorful. Eggman’s post got me thinking about US blocking the Aleutians, but they have to pretty much sell out the navy to do it. Is it their best hope? Is it what can actually stop the US crush? Even if it is, the game is still in need of some help. USA should not have to put 5 ships right in the face of the Japanese to survive.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

Eggman or Krieghund if you have TripleA and have 1/2 hour or so I can show you what I mean if my explanation is unclear. If there is a counter, in-game is the best place to find it.

[Krieghund]

If UK builds an air base on Samoa, you can get the US fighter in the Philippines and all three of the ANZAC fighters to Western United States before Japan attacks.  That ought to even things out.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Krieghund:

If UK builds an air base on Samoa, you can get the US fighter in the Philippines and all three of the ANZAC fighters to Western United States before Japan attacks.  That ought to even things out.

US can already get the fighter there in some cases, ANZAC too. They were moving their fleet to hawaii US 2 When Japan was by Aleutians. Of course if Japan takes Hawaii this changes.

Even if that were the solution, is the game truly not broken and in good shape if the UK needs to spend almost all of one turn’s income build an Airbase in Samoa of all places just for the Allies to have a chance?

On a J4 attack, Japan can have 24 land units (Probably 1 tank, 5-7 artillery, depending) 8 tac, 11 ftr, 2 bombers. 4 more planes is nice, but it doesn’t even out the battle.

[Krieghund]

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

Even if that were the solution, is the game truly not broken and in good shape if the UK needs to spend almost all of one turn’s income build an Airbase in Samoa of all places just for the Allies to have a chance?

This is not that big a deal.  UK can wait until round 2, after Japan has committed to buying the additional transports.  If Japan is committing to attacking the US, UK can easily make up the income.  If Japan doesn’t buy the transports, there’s no need to buy the air base.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

Good point. However, I am not sure what your calculations are for the US force, and I am redoing mine, but ANZAC’s 3 planes didn’t turn the tide last time…

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

J4: Attack (assuming there is a ship blocking a bombard):

Japan has:
16 Inf, 1 Mech, 6 Arty, 1 Tank, 3 Bmb, 8 Tac, 11 Ftr

USA (Inc Anzac) has:
17 Inf, 1 Mech, 1 Art, 7 Tank, 1 Tac 9 Ftr 2 AA (USA buys (5 inf), (6 inf), (2 inf, 7 tanks, ftr)) (Perhaps some AA guns instead? Although I doubt that will help enough or it might hurt)
Triplea gives odds as 97% for Japan to survive with at least one land unit. Average result 14.82 units left. Keeping 13 or 14 planes is the AVERAGE result after winning in the US with max US defense. Remember that is with the Philippines and ANZAC fighters.

Sure, US can pull off the miracle, but once US is gone no matter how far ahead UK and ANZAC get it’s game over for the allies once Japan gets back to the South Pacific from West USA. I would consider a 3% chance for USA to hold to be pointlessly broken.

[Krieghund]

I wasn’t at home yesterday and didn’t have access to my games and materials.  I was using the setup posted here on this site as a reference, which appears to be incomplete, so I was underestimating the number of Japanese air units available.

This is indeed a problem, unless someone can come up with a brilliant counter-strategy.  I’ve been trying to come up with one, but I’ve had no luck so far.

Kudos to Saber for coming up with this.  The funny thing is that this would have worked in the first edition, which has been out for three years.  It took that long for anyone to notice (unless they simply didn’t report it).

I’m consulting with Larry on a small rules change that may fix the problem (which is always preferable to changing the setup).  In the meantime, please keep trying to come up with a counter-strategy.  Thanks.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

I’ve improved saber’s  original strat a lot, and the scary thing is that there are probably quite a few out there who can improve mine a lot as well.

His original strat involved 3 less transports +1 carrier/DD, and he wasn’t able to get all his planes there, but he still took it. This convinced us of the importance of the Alaska block. When my opponent blocked me when it was my turn to be Japan, I settled for the Aleutians since an Airbase there gets the planes to W USA. It’s also a sad fact that my bomber purchased J3 can get to W USA J4.

So far the best counter might be to send out those 5 ships to block Alaska and the Aleutians and stack the Aleutians, but Japan might be able to just delay 1 round. If they don’t delay, the option of killing most of the American navy while taking Pearl and Manila hard and crushing ANZAC with the US needing to have bought for the turtle round 1 might be just as bad for the allies.

Zhukov’s rule change sounded like a good start.

I was thinking if Japan combat moves a land unit into West USA before Round 6, USA can increase the amount of infantry it has on W USA relative the the infantry already there (For example, if they have 16 inf, they can put 8 extra on). I am a little concerned that by giving the US a flat infantry bonus if invaded, they might be able to get away with buys that allow them to have their cake and eat it too by not necessarily buying for the USA crush. I guess I am of the opinion that USA should have to buy to defend the crush (but if they buy for it it should be easily defendable), rather than to make the crush darned near impossible for Japan regardless of what USA buys. Of course the rule change might just be to movement or whatever, but if adding units to the US upon invasion is the solution, it’s a little more complex than first blush might suggest.

I am not sure if saber from TripleA has an account on here, but he deserves a TON of credit for getting this strat out there to be worked on. His move to 14 was brilliant. Once we switched and I realized that I could go Aleutians after he blocked Alaska, we sorta did a look-at-the-board-then-back-at-each-other-then-back-at-the-board deal. (Or maybe he should be ridiculed since maybe no one else on TripleA would have planted the seed for the 14 move in my head.  :-D :-P) Maybe I should have just kept my mouth shut and no one would have seen the idea :-D).

I guess the moral of the story is to never underestimate “noobs.” I am not sure if he knew that he had me after he landed Alaska, but after that happened, the rest became history.

[DWoodchuck]

I had a buddy try this on me last night– he went hard for Alaska, and waited for a J3 DOW.  It changed my purchase strategy, but I still beat him.  I bought a lot of subs and destroyers as well as plenty of infantry.  It was very close; we traded roughly even on rolls, and it made a difference that the ANZAC/UK gut hopped some fighters over to me-- he started forward deploying all his air cover as soon as Japan went east.

Using blockers effectively can stall the Japanese until after J3, at which point US production evens the playing field.  I lost most of my ships and fighters, but I did absorb the hit enough to survive.

It was fun and unconventional, and he almost had it, but I seriously doubt it is “broken.”  Even if he takes the US, he will take enough casualties that the UK and ANZAC can make an excellent fight.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@DWoodchuck:

I had a buddy try this on me last night– he went hard for Alaska, and waited for a J3 DOW.  It changed my purchase strategy, but I still beat him.  I bought a lot of subs and destroyers as well as plenty of infantry.  It was very close; we traded roughly even on rolls, and it made a difference that the ANZAC/UK gut hopped some fighters over to me-- he started forward deploying all his air cover as soon as Japan went east.

Using blockers effectively can stall the Japanese until after J3, at which point US production evens the playing field.  I lost most of my ships and fighters, but I did absorb the hit enough to survive.

It was fun and unconventional, and he almost had it, but I seriously doubt it is "broken."  Even if he takes the US, he will take enough casualties that the UK and ANZAC can make an excellent fight.

Was there a move to 14 on J1 and a block of the Aleutians and Alaska on US1?

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@DWoodchuck:

I had a buddy try this on me last night– he went hard for Alaska, and waited for a J3 DOW.  It changed my purchase strategy, but I still beat him.  I bought a lot of subs and destroyers as well as plenty of infantry.  It was very close; we traded roughly even on rolls, and it made a difference that the ANZAC/UK gut hopped some fighters over to me-- he started forward deploying all his air cover as soon as Japan went east

How can you buy a lot of all that?
Did Japan try to match you by also balancing their purchases, or did they just go all trns?
What round did attack W USA?

@DWoodchuck:

Using blockers effectively can stall the Japanese until after J3, at which point US production evens the playing field.

Â

Please be more specific. Which blocks are you doing? That is critical. Did Japan remember that he can eliminate the blocks in combat and then move through? Was the Aleutians blocked and stacked?

@DWoodchuck:

It was fun and unconventional, and he almost had it, but I seriously doubt it is "broken."  Even if he takes the US, he will take enough casualties that the UK and ANZAC can make an excellent fight.

I disagree; if he takes the US before round 6, it’s game over, unless he threw away his navy somehow or UK/ANZAC win a suicide attack on Japan. Japan gets the 40 something immediate US IPC plus 20 per turn from North America, 26 once they get hawaii. The leftover US navy can sit on sydney or queensland SZ’s, but the allies have nothing that can actually attack the IJN as it continues on it’s merry way to way too many possible destinations. After Japan gets W USA and Honolulu, they need Philippines (easy) Tokyo (of course easy), and the allies would be hard pressed to stack Shanghai, Hong Kong, and India, not to mention sydney at the same time, especially if ANZAC blew its ftrs in WUSA.

The only way the US has a chance (well, better than a 3%) of holding US on J4 is if they stack and block the Aleutians and block Alaska on US 1. This requires 2 destroyers, 2 cruisers, and either the carrier or the battleship. In that case, Japan has a cakewalk for a whole different set of reasons that don’t necessarily include W USA, they can wipe out American ships and blast Sydney.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

I need to apologize, the guy who first tried the rough version of this basic strat I have been working on was not saber, it was Sword. Doh! Sorry about that Sword.