American Entry

[Imperious Leader]

February 1, 1917 Germany begins unrestricted submarine warfare
February 3 German U-boat sinks U.S. cargo ship Housatonic United States breaks off diplomatic relations with Germany
February 24 United States learns of Zimmermann telegram
March 1 Zimmermann telegram published in American press
April 2 Wilson asks Congress to declare war
April 6 United States declares war on Germany

The Zimmerman note was the last straw that allowed the US to enter war. It solidified public opinion decidedly against Germany for it’s implied threat against the western hemisphere. To argue otherwise is silly.

[Flashman]

So if the British hadn’t decoded the message and published it America wouldn’t have gone to war?

Was it a reason to go to war or a pretext to justify a war already decided upon?

[Imperious Leader]

Here is why you fail to make any credible argument:

“Obviously, the Zimmerman note which had no bearing on how the entente was doing, triggered the US entry.”

This is my first point made in this thread. The note triggered the entry.

After that post you initiated alot of fluffy posts of nothing inventing all sorts of other things i didn’t say in a bogus attempt to make my claims seem incorrect. I am not or ever argued any claims regarding something else.

All you need to do is properly understand what i was saying which is the truth. What you seem to be doing is getting me to admit i said something about which had a stronger influence on public opinion as my main argument. But this tactic was proven to lead to failure like all your others.

The note triggered the war and i will keep saying this because it is a fact. USW did not trigger the war, otherwise the British would not need to reveal the note to American authorities. They could keep breaking the German code and not have to deal with a new code. The note triggered the war.

[Imperious Leader]

So if the British hadn’t decoded the message and published it America wouldn’t have gone to war?

In terms of what triggered the war, it was the note. That is what actually happened. In some vague hypothetical scenario, it was not clear that USW could cause public opinion to turn against Germany. IN terms of reality the note triggered the war.

Was it a reason to go to war or a pretext to justify a war already decided upon?

The note allowed the president the cache to get his DOW, because the note more than other things solidified opinion against Germany to a greater extent than anything else.

Now that we know what triggers the war, you assign this as a fixed event in time from where the US player enters the game because that is a fact we can count upon since it is what caused the US entry.

If Paris falls in late 1914, there is not way the US can go to war so making some silly ideas about “if the entente starts losing the US has a earlier option to enter the war” as some variable entry is based on faulty reasoning.  The US could care less about what is going on in Europe. They cared only about how the war effected them, and the note was a implied threat against our continent.

Sinking a few ships would not turn opinion as fast as a note with instructions ceding 20% of our territories to Mexico of all places.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Imperious:

Here is why you fail to make any credible argument:

“Obviously, the Zimmerman note which had no bearing on how the entente was doing, triggered the US entry.”

This is my first point made in this thread. The note triggered the entry.

After that post you initiated alot of fluffy posts of nothing inventing all sorts of other things i didn’t say in a bogus attempt to make my claims seem incorrect. I am not or ever argued any claims regarding something else.

It’s understandable that with so many posts under your belt you can’t keep track of all of your claims:

@Imperious:

Something being the “last straw” is hardly the same as something being the most important factor or an even-more-than-barely-significant factor.

Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

You agreed there that “the last straw” is not automatically also the most important factor, but then go further and say that in this case the note is also the most important factor. That claim, which you have yet to support with definitive evidence, is what I have been arguing against.

[Imperious Leader]

It’s understandable that with so many posts under your belt you can’t keep track of all of your claims:

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 03:20:04 pm
Quote
Something being the “last straw” is hardly the same as something being the most important factor or an even-more-than-barely-significant factor.

Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

You agreed there that “the last straw” is not automatically also the most important factor, but then go further and say that in this case the note is also the most important factor. That claim, which you have yet to support with definitive evidence, is what I have been arguing against.

There you go again when your arguments fail, you keep harping on claims that are not my central point. My central point again is that the note triggered the war. Either argue against that or move on. It is getting boring. So keep inferring claims that are not my point, in an attempt to save your failing arguments that you alone ascribe to me.

The note triggered the war, get over it.

[Imperious Leader]

You agreed there that “the last straw” is not automatically also the most important factor, but then go further and say that in this case the note is also the most important factor. That claim, which you have yet to support with definitive evidence, is what I have been arguing against.

Only thing is you have been arguing BEFORE JAN 8TH with my central point. Go look again where you see my first post and how you began your failing arguments.  :-D

The note triggered the war. Get over it.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Imperious:

Mentioned earlier? It WAS mentioned earlier than his speech! In probably every American newspaper. If the note was the most important reason, why did Wilson not mention it in his April 2 speech, when he DID mention submarines sinking shipping over and over? You really, really suck at chess. � tongue

Because it was a political speech and he was still dealing with some factions that felt the note was a fraud perpetrated by the British to get us into war and he had to come up with info that could not be compromised as the official reason for going into war. It was still possible that the note could be a fake and he didn’t want to make his case for war on a false premise. IN case you didn’t know, the public did solidify against Germany only after the note was introduced, but they had some factions doubting the note was real. You really need to look below the surface to gain the truth.

Which factions? Please cite your sources saying that there were still factions believing the note to be fake after two public admissions by Zimmermann himself that it was genuine.

@Imperious:

The reason why you counted up the words was because you favor shallow reasoning. The note was the trigger that caused the war, not 8 mentions of submarine in a speech you idiot.

Ooo! now I’m an idiot. You must really be running out of ammo for your empty argument. Â

If I cared enough to take the time to count how many times on average over your last few posts you say “the note triggered the war, get over it” or the like, I would probably actually be impressed. It’s hard to imagine with the meds available nowadays that someone could be so delusional. IL, you must be of the camp that says that saying something over and over again makes it true.

I’ll see if it works.

I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire.

Darn. Nothing. I guess I will have to settle with backing up the claims I make with evidence instead of just repeating them. It’ll be tough, but I’ll manage.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Imperious:

There you go again when your arguments fail, you keep harping on claims that are not my central point. My central point again is that the note triggered the war.

So regardless of whether or not it triggered the war, do you admit that unrestricted submarine warfare was overall a more important factor?

In other words, if the note was the last straw, was unrestricted sub warfare a bigger pile of straw?

[Imperious Leader]

Which factions? Please cite your sources saying that there were still factions believing the note to be fake after two public admissions by Zimmermann himself that it was genuine.

factions for not going to war and for going to war.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 01:13:42 pm
The reason why you counted up the words was because you favor shallow reasoning. The note was the trigger that caused the war, not 8 mentions of submarine in a speech you idiot.

Ooo! now I’m an idiot. You must really be running out of ammo for your empty argument. �

But my argument is the note triggered the war , which defeats all the other ones you invent as my argument. :roll:

If I cared enough to take the time to count how many times on average over your last few posts you say “the note triggered the war, get over it” or the like, I would probably actually be impressed. It’s hard to imagine with the meds available nowadays that someone could be so delusional. IL, you must be of the camp that says that saying something over and over again makes it true.

I’ll see if it works.

I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire.

The problem is you are not a millionaire. I am actually but that is not for this thread. The fact is that the note triggered the war. The ‘meds’ argument must be another fluff argument in an attempt to bury the truth with nonsense posts?

Darn. Nothing. I guess I will have to settle with backing up the claims I make with evidence instead of just repeating them. It’ll be tough, but I’ll manage.

Yea and while your managing that failed argument, keep ignoring my point that the note triggered the war. Every post you make that invents “gee i thought we are talking about which event had the greatest impact” which is not my argument in an attempt to generate a bunch of dust and smoke and mirror arguments because you hate the fact that i am correct in knowing that the note triggered the war. I will keep repeating the truth since you don’t understand it yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc

It entertains me to no end laughing at how ridiculous you have become  :mrgreen:

[Imperious Leader]

So regardless of whether or not it triggered the war, do you admit that unrestricted submarine warfare was overall a more important factor?

In other words, if the note was the last straw, was unrestricted sub warfare a bigger pile of straw?

So in order words you are beginning to admit the note caused the war ( triggered it?)

I made no definite claims about anything except what was the final straw, the note.

USW was not it, it would take that note to solidify public opinion not sinking merchant ships because that was too distant to hit home for the American people. An implied threat would be what caused it…that note.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Imperious:

Which factions? Please cite your sources saying that there were still factions believing the note to be fake after two public admissions by Zimmermann himself that it was genuine.

factions for not going to war and for going to war.

Which ones? Where is your source? Did these factions actually still believe the note was fake after Zimmermann’s two admissions it was real? Where is your source?

@Imperious:

So regardless of whether or not it triggered the war, do you admit that unrestricted submarine warfare was overall a more important factor?

In other words, if the note was the last straw, was unrestricted sub warfare a bigger pile of straw?

So in order words you are beginning to admit the note caused the war ( triggered it?)

Dude.

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

@Imperious:

The note was what triggered the war. When on this earth will you stop dancing around this white elephant?

It can be admitted that it was the “last straw,” but for the last straw to matter, there has to be many other straws. No one is saying the Zimmerman telegram is totally irrelevant, but please find a source (if you can) that states that as being a more important reason than USW (don’t forget that the note was sent because Germany was planning on resuming USW)

Bold, underline, and italics added.

That was post 22. That was 3 pages ago.

@Imperious:

I made no definite claims about anything except what was the final straw, the note.

Dude.
I hope this is just your ignorance shining forth and not your lying habit.

I’m going to be adding a lot of bold and underline to highlight how erroneous your above quote is (I suspect it’s intentionally erroneous, trying to cover your tracks, backtracking and saying ‘I never said that’ and giving lame excuses for how such and such was meant to be interpreted differently).

@Imperious:

What you seem to keep missing is that the note drew US into the war not unrestricted submarine warfare.

@Imperious:

Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

@Imperious:

It takes many decades of reflection to sort out the causes, and everybody knows the Note was the major contribution. Just acknowledge that and move on.

@Imperious:

I only said the Zimmerman note was the vital influence to draw US into war. Now if you want to create new arguments in an effort to bury the truth that the Zimmerman Note was the key factor and not UNRESTRICTED SUBMARINE WARFARE, OR THIS NEW THING YOU INVENT.

OK, four is enough. I might be able to find more, but the point is clear.

If all of these are just mistakes on your part and all you ever meant to say was the the note was simply the last straw and you never meant to say the note was the most important factor, then you really have no business posting on an English forum as you have no functional command of the language to speak of.

@Imperious:

USW was not it, it would take that note to solidify public opinion not sinking merchant ships because that was too distant to hit home for the American people.

Where is your proof of that?

According to World History, 5th Edition (McDougal Littell, 1997), “When the Germans returned to unrestricted submarine warfare in 1917, they knew their decision would lead to war with the United States.” Did they know the telegram would get out?  Or did they know that destroying US shipping would cause the US to join? We both know the answer is the second one. Are you adult enough to admit it?

I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

[Imperious Leader]

Which factions? Please cite your sources saying that there were still factions believing the note to be fake after two public admissions by Zimmermann himself that it was genuine.

factions for not going to war and for going to war.

Which ones? Where is your source? Did these factions actually still believe the note was fake after Zimmermann’s two admissions it was real? Where is your source?

It is common knowledge that when the note was first released, American public thought it was trick by the British to draw us into war. The American public was still against the war until latter when the note was proven to be authentic. If you knew anything about this period you would have known that.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 02:53:16 pm
Quote
So regardless of whether or not it triggered the war, do you admit that unrestricted submarine warfare was overall a more important factor?

In other words, if the note was the last straw, was unrestricted sub warfare a bigger pile of straw?

So in order words you are beginning to admit the note caused the war ( triggered it?)

Dude.

Yep i know truth is hard to swallow.

Quote from: vonLettowVorbeck1914 on January 08, 2013, 06:43:21 pm
Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 02:11:20 pm
The note was what triggered the war. When on this earth will you stop dancing around this white elephant?

It can be admitted that it was the “last straw,” but for the last straw to matter, there has to be many other straws. No one is saying the Zimmerman telegram is totally irrelevant, but please find a source (if you can) that states that as being a more important reason than USW (don’t forget that the note was sent because Germany was planning on resuming USW)

Bold, underline, and italics added.

But it was the trigger for war, keep avoiding the truth.

That was post 22. That was 3 pages ago.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 02:53:16 pm

I made no definite claims about anything except what was the final straw, the note.

Dude.
I hope this is just your ignorance shining forth and not your lying habit.

I’m going to be adding a lot of bold and underline to highlight how erroneous your above quote is (I suspect it’s intentionally erroneous, trying to cover your tracks, backtracking and saying ‘I never said that’ and giving lame excuses for how such and such was meant to be interpreted differently).

Keep making fluff arguments knowing all the while that the note triggered the war.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 02:11:20 pm
What you seem to keep missing is that the note drew US into the war not unrestricted submarine warfare.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 03:20:04 pm
Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 07:23:02 pm
It takes many decades of reflection to sort out the causes, and everybody knows the Note was the major contribution. Just acknowledge that and move on.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 07:23:02 pm
I only said the Zimmerman note was the vital influence to draw US into war. Now if you want to create new arguments in an effort to bury the truth that the Zimmerman Note was the key factor and not UNRESTRICTED SUBMARINE WARFARE, OR THIS NEW THING YOU INVENT.

OK, four is enough. I might be able to find more, but the point is clear.

Right and i am right in that the note triggered the war. It was the final straw.

If all of these are just mistakes on your part and all you ever meant to say was the the note was simply the last straw and you never meant to say the note was the most important factor, then you really have no business posting on an English forum as you have no functional command of the language to speak of.

If adding yet another erroneous admission that you have wasted 50% of your total post count arguing against thet fact that the note was the final trigger that caused our entry into the war, then my god have mercy on your smoke and mirrors soul.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 02:53:16 pm
USW was not it, it would take that note to solidify public opinion not sinking merchant ships because that was too distant to hit home for the American people.

Where is your proof of that?

According to World History, 5th Edition (McDougal Littell, 1997), “When the Germans returned to unrestricted submarine warfare in 1917, they knew their decision would lead to war with the United States.” Did they know the telegram would get out? � Or did they know that destroying US shipping would cause the US to join? We both know the answer is the second one. Are you adult enough to admit it?

More smoke and mirrors? The note triggered the war.

I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

Wrong as usual. If that were true the British would never have needed to bring up the Note because USW events would have alone drawn the US into war. The British had to play their last card and make it known that they broke the German code. The note triggered the war not USW.

[Imperious Leader]

Anytime you post, remember the note triggered the war. Only argue against that which is my point. Otherwise buzz off and smoke and mirror somebody else. If you keep this up the Indians will find us and scalp you.

Now keep repeating: the note triggered US entry into the war, not USW.

Every sentence you make repost that sentence until it burns into your skull.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Imperious:

It is common knowledge that when the note was first released, American public thought it was trick by the British to draw us into war. The American public was still against the war until latter when the note was proven to be authentic. If you knew anything about this period you would have known that.

You should write this “common knowledge” a thank-you note for supporting your argument when legitimate historical sources do not.

@Imperious:

Anytime you post, remember the note triggered the war. Only argue against that which is my point.

I will argue against whatever I wish (maybe you actually are a millionaire, and that’s why you think you can boss people around.), and in this case, when I argue against the idea that the note was the most important/significant cause of US entry into the war, I AM arguing against a point you made at least four times, as I have quoted in a recent post above.

You say now that the note being the final trigger (last straw) is all your point has been after I shot down with direct evidence your claim that:
@Imperious:

Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

You can say all you want that all you ever said was that the note was the “last straw” or “final trigger.” But it’s right there in black and white (or light blue in this case as it is quoted) that you claimed that it was ALSO the MOST IMPORTANT factor.

I have admitted countless times that it is quite plausible that the note was the last straw, the one that broke the camel’s back. You keep on harping on that to distract from your claim you made that the evidence does not support, that the note was the most important cause.

According to the sources we have, what was the most significant cause of the US entry into World War I? (not the one that happened last chronologically; there is a difference)

I am starting to sense a pattern in IL’s behavior from this and the "Playable nations"thread.

Step 1. Make a claim without actually examining evidence pertinent to the claim.
Step 2. Argue for the claim citing “common knowledge” and misread sources that don’t actually support the claim.
Step 3. Devolve into insults and distraction tactics when it is realized the evidence is piling up against the claim.
Step 4. Repeat a different claim from earlier over and over again to make people forget the other claim was ever made.
Step 5. Deny the claim from step 1 was ever made and keep repeating the different claim from step 4.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Imperious:

Now that we know what triggers the war, you assign this as a fixed event in time from where the US player enters the game because that is a fact we can count upon since it is what caused the US entry.

But what caused the note to be sent? Or was it destiny that the note be sent then, regardless of what was happening in the war?

@Imperious:

The US could care less about what is going on in Europe. They cared only about how the war effected them, and the note was a implied threat against our continent.

You mean to say that the huge US financial investments in the allied powers before US entry were of no interest to Americans?

@Imperious:

I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

Wrong as usual. If that were true the British would never have needed to bring up the Note because USW events would have alone drawn the US into war. The British had to play their last card and make it known that they broke the German code. The note triggered the war not USW.

So without the note USW would never have led to a declaration? Or is it the case that the note merely sped the declaration along? You make it sound like the British release of the note was the last possible chance to get the US in the war, while the US just ignored its ships going down or just didn’t care.

[Lucas McCain]

I dont know what this mess is about but i do know it was the telegram that caused the entry of America.

I could also say it was the last in a long line of issues and perhaps the important thing. Really dont care except what does this have to do with this game?

Who even cares?

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Lucas:

I dont know what this mess is about but i do know it was the telegram that caused the entry of America.

I could also say it was the last in a long line of issues and perhaps the important thing. Really dont care except what does this have to do with this game?

Who even cares?

If we are going to have a house rule to share in the game where the US entry is dependent on something other than a scheduled turn, it would help to establish what was important in making the US go to war to make the game mechanic historical.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Lucas:

I dont know what this mess is about but i do know it was the telegram that caused the entry of America.

I could also say it was the last in a long line of issues and perhaps the important thing. Really dont care except what does this have to do with this game?

Who even cares?

BTW, welcome to the forums!

Could you clarify a bit what you mean that it “caused the entry”? You are saying it was one of the causes, not the sole cause, right (the second line suggests that you see other causes, I just want to make sure I interpreted correctly.)?

[ch0senfktard]

So to generate a rule, you two have to argue for 2 or more pages long?
Come on. This has essentially gotten off topic, again, all in a disguise that its to help make a rule. (Whether you believe that or not)

Its really ridiculous. Make up your own rules, if some one has a problem with it and doesn’t like your rule, so what?
There is no need for arguing that detracts from the topic and doesn’t get anywhere.
You may think you’re contributing to the topic, but it really isn’t.