American Entry

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Imperious:

So the telegram is what really showed the hand to Americans of German aggression, even though it became publicly relevant it over 4 weeks after Germany resumed unrestricted sub warfare? Don’t you think the sub warfare showed the hand first?

The note was what triggered the war. When on this earth will you stop dancing around this white elephant?

You are the one who is dancing around the fact that the UK withheld the note in order to allow anti-german sentiment to grow because of the effect unrestricted sub warfare (USW from now on) would have on American opinion. The note being the last straw does not mean it was the only or even the most important cause.

http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/zimmermann/

It can be admitted that it was the “last straw,” but for the last straw to matter, there has to be many other straws. No one is saying the Zimmerman telegram is totally irrelevant, but please find a source (if you can) that states that as being a more important reason than USW (don’t forget that the note was sent because Germany was planning on resuming USW)

@Imperious:

Please find a historian or two who actually supports your claim that the US leaders were worried about losing territory to mexico. I would love to go to their house and try on one of their tinfoil hats and play with their 57 cats while sipping their favorite beverage of urine and gasoline out of a horse skull as they tell me their argument in pig latin.

Wrong again. I didn’t say anybody was worried about losing territory. I said the note triggered the war. To find this fact, just look up any book. Then go on dancing with the stars as a white elephant dancer.

There is a difference between people being upset at the audacity of the telegram and people actually being legitimately concerned that Mexico could succeed (or even wanted to go to war) even if Germany won.

nobody claimed otherwise.

Actually, you did:

@Imperious:

This “big shot investors” argument is completely bogus. That is not why we went to war. The direct threat was the possibility of ceding former Mexican areas back to Mexico, which for public opinion ( especially the people living in these areas) would turn these folks against Germany in a second. Unrestricted submarine warfare could be another event to trigger war, but the Zimmerman note came out first. Most people would not hate Germany for sinking ships as much as knowing if Germany wins Mexico could take back large parts of US.

Bold added. That speaks for itself. It no wonder you can’t keep track of what historians write on the subject when you can’t keep track of what you yourself say.

Let’s look at the italicized section (I added those italics btw). When did the Zimmermann note come out? Fact is, it was not given to Wilson until Feb 24, and not released to the public until March 1.

Strange how the US severed diplomatic relations with Germany on the 3rd of February, at least 3 weeks before the public or even Wilson knew the telegram existed. Strange also how this was just three days after the declaration of USW. Severing of diplomatic relations isn’t war, but it is a pretty huge step, don’t you agree?

http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/03/feb-3-1917-u-s-breaks-relations-with-germany-plans-to-declare-war/

Don’t forget to read this part:

“Hollweg’s announcement prompted Wilson to break relations three days later.
Wilson and Congress moved toward declaring war over the next two months. Their decisions were also influenced by a telegram sent by Arthur Zimmerman, the German foreign minister, to Germany’s Mexican ambassador.”

So yes, the note mattered, but as the above site shows the redeclaration of USW might not have been the last straw, but it was a bigger pile of straw than the note was. If the note is supremely important, why did another event cause severing of relations (including sending the German ambassador home) and the movement toward war BEFORE the note was released?  If the note was supremely important, why does The Beard’s Basic History of the United States (Doubleday, 1944) not mention the telegram at all but DOES mention the six torpedoed American ships in Feb and March 1917 (That’s the book I happen to have on the shelf at the moment on the topic).

Still not convinced?  Let’s take a look at Wilson’s speech to congress on Dec. 2nd.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/usawardeclaration.htm

First of all, a quick search of the document shows at least 8 mentions of “submarine.” How many COMBINED mentions of Zimmerman(n), note, or telegram do we find? Zero. Zilch. Nada. This is the president’s speech asking congress for war. If the note was more important than USW wouldn’t it make sense that the note would be mentioned somewhere close to as much as USW? Maybe just once? But it isn’t mentioned. Not once. Was it relevant in turning public opinion against the Germans? Sure. Was it the last straw, the one thing that took it over the edge? Possibly. But was it the most important cause? If we are to answer honestly after carefully looking at the evidence, the answer is no.

I wonder why you haven’t brought any sources into the discussion? Do they not say what you want them to? When that happens sir, it usually means its time to reflect on your historical opinions.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Flashman:

So what DO people want: a game starting in 1914 simulating the world falling into the chaos of a global war in which virtually anything could happen, depending on what the leaders in government and armed forces do, or even on which way the wind is blowing on a particular Tuesday morning; or a text-book re-enactment of the major events of 1914-1918 with a few minor military variables thrown in via a bit of dice rolling?

Honestly, somewhere in between (but definitely closer to the first). I am not saying that you are asking for anarchy in the game, I am merely pointing out that it would be a lot more fun for at least two people for sure, and probably many, many more to have a hand in changing the course of events that military fortunes had a large impact on as the fortunes change, instead of having historically dubious events happening when it is far from necessary for game balance (Russia going into revolution when they are spanking the Germans, for example.)

@Flashman:

Really, if you’re going to make such random events as the Zimmerman telegram set in stone, then on what possible criteria does the German government NOT inform Ludendorff that they’re going to ask the Allies for an Armistice in November 1918?

A good question. There is a difference between having some limits to make the game manageable and scheduling the whole thing.

@Flashman:

As I’ve mentioned before, if you make momentous events like Russian collapse and American declaration of war set to a rigid timetable, then players will inevitably plan for them, in a way that is totally unrealistic.

Exactly. It’s not actually historical in any meaningful sense UNLESS, of course, player decision follows the actual course very well. Scheduling like that is effect that ignores cause.

@Flashman:

Yes, a historical scenario where Russia collapses, then Germany shifts west in a desperate attempt to win before America gets into 2nd gear is an exciting prospect, but only one of an unlimited number.

More possibilities is like having more possible games to play. I like getting multiple games for the price of one.

[Imperious Leader]

You are the one who is dancing around the fact that the UK withheld the note in order to allow anti-german sentiment to grow because of the effect unrestricted sub warfare (USW from now on) would have on American opinion. The note being the last straw does not mean it was the only or even the most important cause.

Funny how you invent new points after the ones i shot down. :roll:  I only said the Zimmerman note was the vital influence to draw US into war. Now if you want to create new arguments in an effort to bury the truth that the Zimmerman Note was the key factor and not UNRESTRICTED SUBMARINE WARFARE, OR THIS NEW THING YOU INVENT. It is common knowledge that what triggered the war was the note and you have not once acknowledge that fact, and instead harp on other factors that DID NOT DIRECTLY TRIGGER THE WAR. I FIND THAT AMUSING.

http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/zimmermann/

It can be admitted that it was the “last straw,” but for the last straw to matter, there has to be many other straws. No one is saying the Zimmerman telegram is totally irrelevant, but please find a source (if you can) that states that as being a more important reason than USW (don’t forget that the note was sent because Germany was planning on resuming USW)

sure ANY History BOOK WILL TELL YOU THE NOTE WAS THE TRIGGER THAT CAUSED THE WAR. Please find one that says it was not the note, but unrestricted submarine warfare or pancakes or whatever.

Actually, you did:

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 10:57:24 am
This “big shot investors” argument is completely bogus. That is not why we went to war. The direct threat was the possibility of ceding former Mexican areas back to Mexico, which for public opinion ( especially the people living in these areas) would turn these folks against Germany in a second. Unrestricted submarine warfare could be another event to trigger war, but the Zimmerman note came out first. Most people would not hate Germany for sinking ships as much as knowing if Germany wins Mexico could take back large parts of US.

Bold added. That speaks for itself. It no wonder you can’t keep track of what historians write on the subject when you can’t keep track of what you yourself say.

So i guess you cant read then. read the words “The direct threat was the possibility of ceding former Mexican areas back” The threat of aggression and not actual a realistic outcome of what Mexico was capable of was the key factor. It was what Germany was capable of doing in order to win the war, which became a direct threat to USA. The actual threat of “Mexico” did not worry America, but if Germany won the war they would be prepared to follow up with partitioning the states to foreign powers.

Let’s look at the italicized section (I added those italics btw). When did the Zimmermann note come out? Fact is, it was not given to Wilson until Feb 24, and not released to the public until March 1.

Strange how the US severed diplomatic relations with Germany on the 3rd of February, at least 3 weeks before the public or even Wilson knew the telegram existed. Strange also how this was just three days after the declaration of USW. Severing of diplomatic relations isn’t war, but it is a pretty huge step, don’t you agree?

Funny how you invented yet another salient point about what caused the war, rather than admitting that the Note caused the war. That white elephant must be getting heavy and i won’t relieve you of it’s burden.

http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/03/feb-3-1917-u-s-breaks-relations-with-germany-plans-to-declare-war/

Don’t forget to read this part:

“Hollweg�s announcement prompted Wilson to break relations three days later.
Wilson and Congress moved toward declaring war over the next two months. Their decisions were also influenced by a telegram sent by Arthur Zimmerman, the German foreign minister, to Germany�s Mexican ambassador.”

LOLOL

Their decisions were also influenced by a telegram sent by Arthur Zimmerman

Case closed. Check and Mate.

So yes, the note mattered, but as the above site shows the redeclaration of USW might not have been the last straw, but it was a bigger pile of straw than the note was. If the note is supremely important, why did another event cause severing of relations (including sending the German ambassador home) and the movement toward war BEFORE the note was released? � If the note was supremely important, why does The Beard’s Basic History of the United States (Doubleday, 1944) not mention the telegram at all but DOES mention the six torpedoed American ships in Feb and March 1917 (That’s the book I happen to have on the shelf at the moment on the topic).

Because that book was written in 1944 ( during ww2)  and real Historians have had time to sort out the actual influences. It takes many decades of reflection to sort out the causes, and everybody knows the Note was the major contribution. Just acknowledge that and move on.

Still not convinced? � Let’s take a look at Wilson’s speech to congress on Dec. 2nd.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/usawardeclaration.htm

First of all, a quick search of the document shows at least 8 mentions of “submarine.” How many COMBINED mentions of Zimmerman(n), note, or telegram do we find? Zero. Zilch. Nada. This is the president’s speech asking congress for war. If the note was more important than USW wouldn’t it make sense that the note would be mentioned somewhere close to as much as USW? Maybe just once? But it isn’t mentioned. Not once. Was it relevant in turning public opinion against the Germans? Sure. Was it the last straw, the one thing that took it over the edge? Possibly. But was it the most important cause? If we are to answer honestly after carefully looking at the evidence, the answer is no.

This is why you should not be involved in understanding History. The Note was a sensitive paper which got intercepted by the British. So to acknowledge the code was broken would subvert future interceptions. It would be the same problem if in WW2, FDR says “we broke the Japanese code because we tricked them by reporting the water tanks at Midway were out.”

Don’t just read facts without tying them together to make sense of it all.

I wonder why you haven’t brought any sources into the discussion? Do they not say what you want them to? When that happens sir, it usually means its time to reflect on your historical opinions.

Because it is a well known fact that the Zimmerman Note was the trigger for US entry. It is so basic and you keep inventing new crap to pile out that truth because you lost this argument so long ago and I’m just amusing myself with the entertainment you provide.

[Imperious Leader]

To make the most ahistorical game possible:

1. Allow variable war starts ( need to roll 12 each turn) roll twice or three times for each year…so the war could start as late as 1985
2. Allow the US to enter as soon as one of the entente falls ( Paris falls on turn 2, US forces appear on turn 3)
3. Allow any nation to switch sides, like RISK
4. Allow any neutral to fight on any side
5. Allow Russia to stay in the game as long as they make their saving roll

[Imperious Leader]

Zimmermann note, secret telegram sent on Jan. 16, 1917, by German foreign secretary Arthur Zimmermann to Count Johann von Bernstorff, the German ambassador to the United States. In it Zimmermann said that in the event of war with the United States, Mexico should be asked to enter the war as a German ally. In return, Germany promised to restore to Mexico the lost territories of Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. British intelligence intercepted and deciphered the telegram and sent it to President Woodrow Wilson, who released it on Mar. 1, 1917, to the press. The Zimmermann note helped turn U.S. public opinion against Germany during World War I and strengthened the advocates of U.S. entry into the war.

Bibliography

See B. W. Tuchman, The Zimmermann Telegram (1966).

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/zimmermann-note#ixzz2HRiKC8Kl

[Imperious Leader]

“President Wilson went before Congress on February 3 to announce that he had severed diplomatic relations with Germany. However, he refrained from asking for a declaration of war because he doubted that the American public would support him unless there was ample proof that Germany intended to attack U.S. ships with no warning. Wilson left open the possibility of negotiating with Germany if its submarines refrained from attacking American shipping. Nevertheless, throughout February and March 1917, German submarines targeted and sunk several American ships, and many American passengers and seamen died.”

So it was the direct cause.

“The British had initially not shared the news of the Zimmerman Telegram with U.S. officials, because they did not want the Germans to discover that British code breakers had cracked the German code. However, following Germany’s resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare in February, the British decided to use the note to help sway American official and public opinion to join the war. The British finally forwarded the intercept to Wilson on February 24. The American press carried the story the following week.”

Now you know what Wilson didn’t mention the note, because it would tip the hat to Germany and give them the knowledge that British had broken the German code.

"Despite the shocking news of the Zimmerman Telegram, Wilson still hesitated to ask for a declaration of war. He waited until March 20 before convening a Cabinet meeting to broach the matter–almost a month after he had first seen the telegram. The precise reasons for Wilson’s decision to choose war in 1917 remain the subject of debate among historians, especially in light of his efforts to avoid war in 1915 after the sinking of the British passenger liners Lusitania and Arabic, which had led to the deaths of 131 Americans.

However, by 1917, the continued submarine attacks on American merchant and passenger ships, and the “Zimmerman Telegram’s” implied threat of a German attack on the United States, had served to sway American public opinion in support of a declaration of war."

The Note was the final straw. It is not the case that if the note never occurred, that with certainty, the US would enter the war.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Imperious:

You are the one who is dancing around the fact that the UK withheld the note in order to allow anti-german sentiment to grow because of the effect unrestricted sub warfare (USW from now on) would have on American opinion. The note being the last straw does not mean it was the only or even the most important cause.

Funny how you invent new points after the ones i shot down. :roll:  I only said the Zimmerman note was the vital influence to draw US into war. Now if you want to create new arguments in an effort to bury the truth that the Zimmerman Note was the key factor and not UNRESTRICTED SUBMARINE WARFARE, OR THIS NEW THING YOU INVENT. It is common knowledge that what triggered the war was the note and you have not once acknowledge that fact, and instead harp on other factors that DID NOT DIRECTLY TRIGGER THE WAR. I FIND THAT AMUSING.

I invented nothing new. I cite numerous sources that show USW as the main concern of the US. You cite for your view “common knowledge.” That is funny. I literally lol’ed. Only someone as delusional as you could think you are making progress at shooting my points down. The last straw only matters if there were other straws before it.

“In an effort to protect their intelligence from detection and to capitalize on growing anti-German sentiment in the United States, the British waited until February 24 to present the telegram to Woodrow Wilson.”
from
http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/zimmermann/

Why was there "growing anti-german sentiment? Did anything important happen before that? Perhaps on January 31st? Hmm.

@Imperious:

sure ANY History BOOK WILL TELL YOU THE NOTE WAS THE TRIGGER THAT CAUSED THE WAR. Please find one that says it was not the note, but unrestricted submarine warfare or pancakes or whatever.

Already did. I quoted from it. Here’s another:

"In mid-march 1917, German U-boats sank three American merchant ships. Outraged about the violation of American neutrality, President Wilson called a meeting with his cabinet. Each cabinet member argued for war. On April 2, Wilson asked Congress to declare war on Germany to “make the world safe for democracy.” -American Anthem, Holt-Rinehart-Winston, 2007

If we put any more nails in your argument’s coffin the price of steel will get out of hand.

Couldn’t find one about pancakes, sorry. I don’t feel that bad though since I never made any claims about pancakes. Until just now I suppose.

@Imperious:

So i guess you cant read then. read the words “The direct threat was the possibility of ceding former Mexican areas back” The threat of aggression and not actual a realistic outcome of what Mexico was capable of was the key factor. It was what Germany was capable of doing in order to win the war, which became a direct threat to USA. The actual threat of “Mexico” did not worry America, but if Germany won the war they would be prepared to follow up with partitioning the states to foreign powers.

The fact that you assume that Germany winning the war (unless Germany or Mexico occupied American possessions they would be hard pressed to force them to give them up) means it would be willing or able to force  the United States to cede territory to Mexico is so asinine that I am not even going to waste time asking for the source of that “information.”

@Imperious:

Let’s look at the italicized section (I added those italics btw). When did the Zimmermann note come out? Fact is, it was not given to Wilson until Feb 24, and not released to the public until March 1.

Strange how the US severed diplomatic relations with Germany on the 3rd of February, at least 3 weeks before the public or even Wilson knew the telegram existed. Strange also how this was just three days after the declaration of USW. Severing of diplomatic relations isn’t war, but it is a pretty huge step, don’t you agree?

Funny how you invented yet another salient point about what caused the war, rather than admitting that the Note caused the war. That white elephant must be getting heavy and i won’t relieve you of it’s burden.

I’ve already admitted the note was relevant. But to say it caused the war for the US is standing on shaky, and at the moment, unsourced or dubiously sourced ground. Got anything substantial?

@Imperious:

http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/03/feb-3-1917-u-s-breaks-relations-with-germany-plans-to-declare-war/

Don’t forget to read this part:
“Hollweg�s announcement prompted Wilson to break relations three days later.
Wilson and Congress moved toward declaring war over the next two months. Their decisions were also influenced by a telegram sent by Arthur Zimmerman, the German foreign minister, to Germany�s Mexican ambassador.”

LOLOL
Their decisions were also influenced by a telegram sent by Arthur Zimmerman
Case closed. Check and Mate.

You say I am not able to read. Look at the part where it says “also influenced,” meaning there were other influences. If the note was the main cause, wouldn’t it be written about as such rather than an “also” afterthought? It takes a truly remarkable mind to take that to mean that that sentence says the telegram caused the war. You ignore the statement that the US was moving toward war before the telegram was even revealed to the US.

@Imperious:

So yes, the note mattered, but as the above site shows the redeclaration of USW might not have been the last straw, but it was a bigger pile of straw than the note was. If the note is supremely important, why did another event cause severing of relations (including sending the German ambassador home) and the movement toward war BEFORE the note was released? � If the note was supremely important, why does The Beard’s Basic History of the United States (Doubleday, 1944) not mention the telegram at all but DOES mention the six torpedoed American ships in Feb and March 1917 (That’s the book I happen to have on the shelf at the moment on the topic).

Because that book was written in 1944 ( during ww2)  and real Historians have had time to sort out the actual influences. It takes many decades of reflection to sort out the causes, and everybody knows the Note was the major contribution. Just acknowledge that and move on.

I was pretty sure you’d come up with this lame and arrogant excuse, that since the book is old the authors can’t possibly know what they are talking about. Now I quoted from a book from 2007 that states USW caused the war. Is that not recent enough? Perhaps next time I will quote a book from the future?

@Imperious:

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/usawardeclaration.htm

First of all, a quick search of the document shows at least 8 mentions of “submarine.” How many COMBINED mentions of Zimmerman(n), note, or telegram do we find? Zero. Zilch. Nada. This is the president’s speech asking congress for war. If the note was more important than USW wouldn’t it make sense that the note would be mentioned somewhere close to as much as USW? Maybe just once? But it isn’t mentioned. Not once. Was it relevant in turning public opinion against the Germans? Sure. Was it the last straw, the one thing that took it over the edge? Possibly. But was it the most important cause? If we are to answer honestly after carefully looking at the evidence, the answer is no.

This is why you should not be involved in understanding History. The Note was a sensitive paper which got intercepted by the British. So to acknowledge the code was broken would subvert future interceptions.

Oh the delicious, succulent irony. This is so rich I will need to skip dessert for a long time.

You claim he would not have mentioned the note because it would have subverted future interceptions. You fail to realize (OMG this is too good! I can’t contain myself!) that the note was already released to the public A WHOLE MONTH before this speech!  So he did not mention it in  the speech because he needed to keep it secret even though it was available to the public for a month?

lol.

@Imperious:

Don’t just read facts without tying them together to make sense of it all.

Indeed!

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Imperious:

Zimmermann note, secret telegram sent on Jan. 16, 1917, by German foreign secretary Arthur Zimmermann to Count Johann von Bernstorff, the German ambassador to the United States. In it Zimmermann said that in the event of war with the United States, Mexico should be asked to enter the war as a German ally. In return, Germany promised to restore to Mexico the lost territories of Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. British intelligence intercepted and deciphered the telegram and sent it to President Woodrow Wilson, who released it on Mar. 1, 1917, to the press. The Zimmermann note helped turn U.S. public opinion against Germany during World War I and strengthened the advocates of U.S. entry into the war.

Bold added. “helped.” “strengthened.” I agree. I have been agreeing that it did such things. But this quote hardly states the telegram as the main cause.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Imperious:

“President Wilson went before Congress on February 3 to announce that he had severed diplomatic relations with Germany. However, he refrained from asking for a declaration of war because he doubted that the American public would support him unless there was ample proof that Germany intended to attack U.S. ships with no warning. Wilson left open the possibility of negotiating with Germany if its submarines refrained from attacking American shipping. Nevertheless, throughout February and March 1917, German submarines targeted and sunk several American ships, and many American passengers and seamen died.”

So it was the direct cause.

Lol. Did you even read what you quoted? He wanted proof that the Germans would attack Ami shipping before before asking for war, and the Germans gave it to him by attacking “throughout February and March” When did Wilson get the telegram from the Brits? LATE FEBRUARY.

The national archive source I quoted in a post above stated that the british waited for intelligence reasons AND to capitalize on growing anti-german sentiment. Why was the sentiment growing? Could it have had anything to do with the fact that Germans were attacking throughout February, well before the telegram was released?

@Imperious:

“The British had initially not shared the news of the Zimmerman Telegram with U.S. officials, because they did not want the Germans to discover that British code breakers had cracked the German code. However, following Germany�s resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare in February, the British decided to use the note to help sway American official and public opinion to join the war. The British finally forwarded the intercept to Wilson on February 24. The American press carried the story the following week.”

Now you know what Wilson didn’t mention the note, because it would tip the hat to Germany and give them the knowledge that British had broken the German code.

Even though the speech was made a month after the American public ALREADY knew about the note? Did you read the speech? Did you even glance at it? April 2nd, 1917. The note was released on March 1.

@Imperious:

"Despite the shocking news of the Zimmerman Telegram, Wilson still hesitated to ask for a declaration of war. He waited until March 20 before convening a Cabinet meeting to broach the matter–almost a month after he had first seen the telegram. The precise reasons for Wilson�s decision to choose war in 1917 remain the subject of debate among historians, especially in light of his efforts to avoid war in 1915 after the sinking of the British passenger liners Lusitania and Arabic, which had led to the deaths of 131 Americans.

Hmm, I wonder if that cabinet meeting is the same one I referenced in the the quote from the American Anthem textbook, the meeting that was called after the sinking of American ships in mid-march, by guess what! German subs engaging in unrestricted sub warfare.

@Imperious:

However, by 1917, the continued submarine attacks on American merchant and passenger ships, and the �Zimmerman Telegram�s� implied threat of a German attack on the United States, had served to sway American public opinion in support of a declaration of war."

Note that the sub attacks are mentioned right alongside (and even before) the telegram in the second quote. Note also that this refers only to public opinion. Yet, the president’s speech, asking for war does not mention the note. The Zimmermann note is important for American public support of the war. And of course public opinion is relevant in deciding to go to war. But the note is not the critical factor in causing the US leaders to decide to go to war.

@Imperious:

The Note was the final straw. It is not the case that if the note never occurred, that with certainty, the US would enter the war.

So what? It’s also not the case that if the note never occurred, the US would have certianly NOT entered the war.

[Imperious Leader]

You are the one who is dancing around the fact that the UK withheld the note in order to allow anti-german sentiment to grow because of the effect unrestricted sub warfare (USW from now on) would have on American opinion. The note being the last straw does not mean it was the only or even the most important cause.

But it was the final cause leading to war. It was the final straw just like i have been saying all along.

Funny how you invent new points after the ones i shot down. rolleyes  I only said the Zimmerman note was the vital influence to draw US into war. Now if you want to create new arguments in an effort to bury the truth that the Zimmerman Note was the key factor and not UNRESTRICTED SUBMARINE WARFARE, OR THIS NEW THING YOU INVENT. It is common knowledge that what triggered the war was the note and you have not once acknowledge that fact, and instead harp on other factors that DID NOT DIRECTLY TRIGGER THE WAR. I FIND THAT AMUSING.

I invented nothing new. I cite numerous sources that show USW as the main concern of the US. You cite for your view “common knowledge.” That is funny. I literally lol’ed. Only someone as delusional as you could think you are making progress at shooting my points down. The last straw only matters if there were other straws before it.

Sure you did. You fail to acknowledge that the Note was the final straw and the key influence to trigger war. You still defend other things before it or after the note.

“In an effort to protect their intelligence from detection and to capitalize on growing anti-German sentiment in the United States, the British waited until February 24 to present the telegram to Woodrow Wilson.”
from
http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/zimmermann/

Why was there "growing anti-german sentiment? Did anything important happen before that? Perhaps on January 31st? Hmm.

That does not mean the note was not the final straw that triggered the war. If you got one old women who hates Germany because of Jan 31st you got increased sentiment, but you don’t have the trigger. The note was the final trigger. Get over it.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:23:02 pm
sure ANY History BOOK WILL TELL YOU THE NOTE WAS THE TRIGGER THAT CAUSED THE WAR. Please find one that says it was not the note, but unrestricted submarine warfare or pancakes or whatever.

Already did. I quoted from it. Here’s another:

"In mid-march 1917, German U-boats sank three American merchant ships. Outraged about the violation of American neutrality, President Wilson called a meeting with his cabinet. Each cabinet member argued for war. On April 2, Wilson asked Congress to declare war on Germany to “make the world safe for democracy.” -American Anthem, Holt-Rinehart-Winston, 2007

If we put any more nails in your argument’s coffin the price of steel will get out of hand.

Couldn’t find one about pancakes, sorry. I don’t feel that bad though since I never made any claims about pancakes. Until just now I suppose.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:23:02 pm
So i guess you cant read then. read the words “The direct threat was the possibility of ceding former Mexican areas back” The threat of aggression and not actual a realistic outcome of what Mexico was capable of was the key factor. It was what Germany was capable of doing in order to win the war, which became a direct threat to USA. The actual threat of “Mexico” did not worry America, but if Germany won the war they would be prepared to follow up with partitioning the states to foreign powers.

The fact that you assume that Germany winning the war (unless Germany or Mexico occupied American possessions they would be hard pressed to force them to give them up) means it would be willing or able to force  the United States to cede territory to Mexico is so asinine that I am not even going to waste time asking for the source of that “information.”

The fact that i assume Germany winning the war? Where do you get this from? How bout assume the note was the final straw that triggered US entry…as you well know.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:23:02 pm
Quote
Let’s look at the italicized section (I added those italics btw). When did the Zimmermann note come out? Fact is, it was not given to Wilson until Feb 24, and not released to the public until March 1.

Strange how the US severed diplomatic relations with Germany on the 3rd of February, at least 3 weeks before the public or even Wilson knew the telegram existed. Strange also how this was just three days after the declaration of USW. Severing of diplomatic relations isn’t war, but it is a pretty huge step, don’t you agree?

Funny how you invented yet another salient point about what caused the war, rather than admitting that the Note caused the war. That white elephant must be getting heavy and i won’t relieve you of it’s burden.

I’ve already admitted the note was relevant. But to say it caused the war for the US is standing on shaky, and at the moment, unsourced or dubiously sourced ground. Got anything substantial?

Yes the note was the final cause that triggered US entry in the war. To argue against that fact for 30 posts seems like a failing proposition no?

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:23:02 pm
http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/03/feb-3-1917-u-s-breaks-relations-with-germany-plans-to-declare-war/

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Don’t forget to read this part:
“Hollweg�s announcement prompted Wilson to break relations three days later.
Wilson and Congress moved toward declaring war over the next two months. Their decisions were also influenced by a telegram sent by Arthur Zimmerman, the German foreign minister, to Germany�s Mexican ambassador.”
LOLOL
Their decisions were also influenced by a telegram sent by Arthur Zimmerman
Case closed. Check and Mate.

You say I am not able to read. Look at the part where it says “also influenced,” meaning there were other influences. If the note was the main cause, wouldn’t it be written about as such rather than an “also” afterthought? It takes a truly remarkable mind to take that to mean that that sentence says the telegram caused the war. You ignore the statement that the US was moving toward war before the telegram was even revealed to the US.

Dear Santa: The final straw that drew US into the war could be counted but with only one event: the Zimmerman note. Other influences also contributed, but the Note was the final straw that leads US into war. Get over it.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:23:02 pm
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So yes, the note mattered, but as the above site shows the redeclaration of USW might not have been the last straw, but it was a bigger pile of straw than the note was. If the note is supremely important, why did another event cause severing of relations (including sending the German ambassador home) and the movement toward war BEFORE the note was released? � If the note was supremely important, why does The Beard’s Basic History of the United States (Doubleday, 1944) not mention the telegram at all but DOES mention the six torpedoed American ships in Feb and March 1917 (That’s the book I happen to have on the shelf at the moment on the topic).

Because that book was written in 1944 ( during ww2)  and real Historians have had time to sort out the actual influences. It takes many decades of reflection to sort out the causes, and everybody knows the Note was the major contribution. Just acknowledge that and move on.

I was pretty sure you’d come up with this lame and arrogant excuse, that since the book is old the authors can’t possibly know what they are talking about. Now I quoted from a book from 2007 that states USW caused the war. Is that not recent enough? Perhaps next time I will quote a book from the future?

You can quote anybody saying anything, but the Note was the final straw that triggered US entry into the war. Get over it.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:23:02 pm
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http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/usawardeclaration.htm

First of all, a quick search of the document shows at least 8 mentions of “submarine.” How many COMBINED mentions of Zimmerman(n), note, or telegram do we find? Zero. Zilch. Nada. This is the president’s speech asking congress for war. If the note was more important than USW wouldn’t it make sense that the note would be mentioned somewhere close to as much as USW? Maybe just once? But it isn’t mentioned. Not once. Was it relevant in turning public opinion against the Germans? Sure. Was it the last straw, the one thing that took it over the edge? Possibly. But was it the most important cause? If we are to answer honestly after carefully looking at the evidence, the answer is no.

This is why you should not be involved in understanding History. The Note was a sensitive paper which got intercepted by the British. So to acknowledge the code was broken would subvert future interceptions.

Oh the delicious, succulent irony. This is so rich I will need to skip dessert for a long time.

You claim he would not have mentioned the note because it would have subverted future interceptions. You fail to realize (OMG this is too good! I can’t contain myself!) that the note was already released to the public A WHOLE MONTH before this speech!  So he did not mention it in  the speech because he needed to keep it secret even though it was available to the public for a month?

Link to substantiate the public knew the British broke the German code?

[Imperious Leader]

Lol. Did you even read what you quoted? He wanted proof that the Germans would attack Ami shipping before before asking for war, and the Germans gave it to him by attacking “throughout February and March” When did Wilson get the telegram from the Brits? LATE FEBRUARY.

The national archive source I quoted in a post above stated that the british waited for intelligence reasons AND to capitalize on growing anti-german sentiment. Why was the sentiment growing? Could it have had anything to do with the fact that Germans were attacking throughout February, well before the telegram was released?

Sentiment was not the trigger that got US into war. It was the Note. Get over it.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:40:39 pm
“The British had initially not shared the news of the Zimmerman Telegram with U.S. officials, because they did not want the Germans to discover that British code breakers had cracked the German code. However, following Germany�s resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare in February, the British decided to use the note to help sway American official and public opinion to join the war. The British finally forwarded the intercept to Wilson on February 24. The American press carried the story the following week.”

Now you know what Wilson didn’t mention the note, because it would tip the hat to Germany and give them the knowledge that British had broken the German code.

Even though the speech was made a month after the American public ALREADY knew about the note? Did you read the speech? Did you even glance at it? April 2nd, 1917. The note was released on March 1.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:40:39 pm
"Despite the shocking news of the Zimmerman Telegram, Wilson still hesitated to ask for a declaration of war. He waited until March 20 before convening a Cabinet meeting to broach the matter–almost a month after he had first seen the telegram. The precise reasons for Wilson�s decision to choose war in 1917 remain the subject of debate among historians, especially in light of his efforts to avoid war in 1915 after the sinking of the British passenger liners Lusitania and Arabic, which had led to the deaths of 131 Americans.

Hmm, I wonder if that cabinet meeting is the same one I referenced in the the quote from the American Anthem textbook, the meeting that was called after the sinking of American ships in mid-march, by guess what! German subs engaging in unrestricted sub warfare.

Yes and the Note was the final straw that triggered US entry. Without it, it was not clear if he could get a DOW.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:40:39 pm
However, by 1917, the continued submarine attacks on American merchant and passenger ships, and the �Zimmerman Telegram�s� implied threat of a German attack on the United States, had served to sway American public opinion in support of a declaration of war."

Note that the sub attacks are mentioned right alongside (and even before) the telegram in the second quote. Note also that this refers only to public opinion. Yet, the president’s speech, asking for war does not mention the note. The Zimmermann note is important for American public support of the war. But it’s not the critical factor in causing the US leaders to decide to go to war.

The note was the last straw that caused US entry into the war. Get over it.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 07:40:39 pm

The Note was the final straw. It is not the case that if the note never occurred, that with certainty, the US would enter the war.

So what? It’s also not the case that if the note never occurred, the US would have certianly NOT entered the war.

Well now you finally agree. I guess you learned something…finally.

[Imperious Leader]

In January of 1917, British cryptographers deciphered a telegram from German Foreign Minister Arthur Zimmermann to the German Minister to Mexico, von Eckhardt, offering United States territory to Mexico in return for joining the German cause. This message helped draw the United States into the war and thus changed the course of history. The telegram had such an impact on American opinion that, according to David Kahn, author of The Codebreakers, “No other single cryptanalysis has had such enormous consequences.” It is his opinion that “never before or since has so much turned upon the solution of a secret message.” In an effort to protect their intelligence from detection and to capitalize on growing anti-German sentiment in the United States, the British waited until February 24 to present the telegram to Woodrow Wilson. The American press published news of the telegram on March 1. On April 6, 1917, the United States Congress formally declared war on Germany and its allies.

Funny how it does not mention that USW was the cause that drew the US into war. Yep it was that darn note.

[Imperious Leader]

The Zimmerman telegram appears to be the evidence needed to bring the United States into the war and save the beleaguered Allies. Select your course of action.

Course of Action # 1
Immediately reveal the Zimmermann telegram to the United States
Consequences: 
• The Swedes, whose cable Room 40 was not to read, would be deeply angered.
• The Americans, whose cable Room 40 was not to read, would be deeply angered.
• Germany would be keenly aware that the British had cracked the code and would stop using it resulting in a serious intelligence setback for the British.
• The Americans might dismiss the telegram as British propaganda aimed at bringing the United States into the war.

Course of Action # 2
Keep the information a British intelligence secret
Consequences:
• The Swedes and Americans will have no idea that messages sent on their telegraphic links are being decoded by the British.
• Germany will continue to use the code because they will remain unaware that it has been broken by the British.
• The Allies who are in desperate need of vital American aide will have to wait for unrestricted submarine warfare to draw the United States into the conflict.

Course of Action # 3
Wait and see if the Feb 1, start of unrestricted German submarine warfare brings the United States into the conflict. While waiting, perfect the translation of the Zimmerman telegram. The delay would also allow British intelligence time to contact an agent in Mexico City and try to obtain a copy of the actual Western Union telegraph sent to German Ambassador to Mexico Eckhardt. Such a copy, if obtained, could be revealed as the source of the information thus protecting the efforts of Room 40. Such a copy would also help prove that the telegram was legitimate and not mere propaganda. If America fails to enter the war quickly the Zimmermann telegram should then be revealed in the hope that it brings the United States into the war.
Consequences:
• The Swedes and Americans will not know that their telegraphic links are being decoded by the British.
• Germany will think that the telegram had been lifted from Eckhardt’s office.  They will continue to use the code because they will remain unaware that it has been broken by the British.
• The Allies who are in desperate need of vital American aide will have to wait and see if unrestricted submarine warfare draws the United States into the conflict, if not hope that the revelation of the Zimmerman telegram will finally draw the US into the war. However, many Americans may remain suspicious that the telegram is nothing more than British propaganda.

Select your course of action:    #_____

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Imperious:

That does not mean the note was not the final straw that triggered the war. If you got one old women who hates Germany because of Jan 31st you got increased sentiment, but you don’t have the trigger. The note was the final trigger. Get over it.

I already have:
@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

It can be admitted that it was the “last straw,” but for the last straw to matter, there has to be many other straws. No one is saying the Zimmerman telegram is totally irrelevant, but please find a source (if you can) that states that as being a more important reason than USW (don’t forget that the note was sent because Germany was planning on resuming USW)

My point been that being the last straw is not the same as being the most important factor. It’s quite possible, perhaps even probable (although the sub attacks in mid-march led to the decisive cabinet meeting to resolve for war, not the telegram) that the telegram was the last straw. My point is that regardless of whether the note was the LAST straw, USW is the MOST SIGNIFICANT straw.

@Imperious:

The fact that you assume that Germany winning the war (unless Germany or Mexico occupied American possessions they would be hard pressed to force them to give them up) means it would be willing or able to force � the United States to cede territory to Mexico is so asinine that I am not even going to waste time asking for the source of that “information.”

The fact that i assume Germany winning the war? Where do you get this from? How bout assume the note was the final straw that triggered US entry…as you well know.

Learn English, especially “complementizer phrase.” You said that if Germany won the war, they would partition the states among foreign powers. I stated that it was crazy to think that a German victory (“Germany winning the war”) would lead to Germany being able or willing to actually give US territory to Mexico.

@Imperious:

Yes the note was the final cause that triggered US entry in the war. To argue against that fact for 30 posts seems like a failing proposition no?

Except my argument is not against it being the last straw. It is against it being the most important straw (factor, cause, whatever), a view which you asserted here:

@Imperious:

Something being the “last straw” is hardly the same as something being the most important factor or an even-more-than-barely-significant factor.

Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

@Imperious:

You claim he would not have mentioned the note because it would have subverted future interceptions. You fail to realize (OMG this is too good! I can’t contain myself!) that the note was already released to the public A WHOLE MONTH before this speech! � So he did not mention it in � the speech because he needed to keep it secret even though it was available to the public for a month?

Link to substantiate the public knew the British broke the German code?

Is this even a complete thought? Or are you just so overwhelmed with your huge interpretive blunder? You said that Wilson did not mention the note because it would mean that the Germans would know the Brits could intercept. The speech was given ONE MONTH after the note was released to the public a release which ALREADY made it quite obvious their communications were being intercepted, if they didn’t already know even before March 1.

I don’t really care what the last straw is or was. What I am concerned about is your insistence that the telgram was the most important factor. There is a difference between something being the last straw and the most important straw.

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

@Imperious:

In January of 1917, British cryptographers deciphered a telegram from German Foreign Minister Arthur Zimmermann to the German Minister to Mexico, von Eckhardt, offering United States territory to Mexico in return for joining the German cause. This message helped draw the United States into the war and thus changed the course of history. The telegram had such an impact on American opinion that, according to David Kahn, author of The Codebreakers, “No other single cryptanalysis has had such enormous consequences.” It is his opinion that “never before or since has so much turned upon the solution of a secret message.” In an effort to protect their intelligence from detection and to capitalize on growing anti-German sentiment in the United States, the British waited until February 24 to present the telegram to Woodrow Wilson. The American press published news of the telegram on March 1. On April 6, 1917, the United States Congress formally declared war on Germany and its allies.

Funny how it does not mention that USW was the cause that drew the US into war. Yep it was that darn note.

Once again you show your inability to read critically. It “helped.” Nowhere does it say it was the most important. It does suggest that David Kahn says that it was the most important secret message in history. But that is not the same as saying it was the most important cause of US entry, unless you count German sinking of neutral US ships as a secret message.

Funny how you didn’t address this:

"In mid-march 1917, German U-boats sank three American merchant ships. Outraged about the violation of American neutrality, President Wilson called a meeting with his cabinet. Each cabinet member argued for war. On April 2, Wilson asked Congress to declare war on Germany to “make the world safe for democracy.” -American Anthem, Holt-Rinehart-Winston, 2007

I’m going to bed. I have to work early.  I eagerly await your futile attempt at dismissing the above historical source. Not only is it clear that the U-boat warfare was the most important cause, if I cared enough to argue it, it seems also that it might have been the last straw too. But I am satisfied with repeatedly showing Unrestricted Submarine Warfare being the MAIN cause of US entry into the war according to several historical sources, while all you have shown was that the telegram was of at least some, perhaps much, importance (which I have never argued).

[vonLettowVorbeck1914]

One more for good measure:

http://history.state.gov/milestones/1914-1920/WWI

“Germany’s resumption of submarine attacks on passenger and merchant ships in 1917 was the primary motivation behind Wilson’s decision to lead the United States into World War I.”

Funny how that comes from the SAME SOURCE you quoted in post 27. That’s not just unsporting. That’s unethical, unless you somehow didn’t see it.

[/“debate”]

I’ll get back to the possiblity of variable US entry (which I find really cool and adding of realism to the game tomorrow)

[Imperious Leader]

My point been that being the last straw is not the same as being the most important factor. It’s quite possible, perhaps even probable (although the sub attacks in mid-march led to the decisive cabinet meeting to resolve for war, not the telegram) that the telegram was the last straw. My point is that regardless of whether the note was the LAST straw, USW is the MOST SIGNIFICANT straw.

It was the last straw that triggered the entry of US into the war. Get over it.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 09:22:20 pm
Yes the note was the final cause that triggered US entry in the war. To argue against that fact for 30 posts seems like a failing proposition no?

Except my argument is not against it being the last straw. It is against it being the most important straw (factor, cause, whatever), a view which you asserted here:

It probably was the most important straw, but my argument is that it was the final straw of which you argue against in 30 posts.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 03:20:04 pm
Quote
Something being the “last straw” is hardly the same as something being the most important factor or an even-more-than-barely-significant factor.
Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 09:22:20 pm
Quote
You claim he would not have mentioned the note because it would have subverted future interceptions. You fail to realize (OMG this is too good! I can’t contain myself!) that the note was already released to the public A WHOLE MONTH before this speech! � So he did not mention it in � the speech because he needed to keep it secret even though it was available to the public for a month?

Link to substantiate the public knew the British broke the German code?

Is this even a complete thought? Or are you just so overwhelmed with your huge interpretive blunder? You said that Wilson did not mention the note because it would mean that the Germans would know the Brits could intercept. The speech was given ONE MONTH after the note was released to the public a release which ALREADY made it quite obvious their communications were being intercepted, if they didn’t already know even before March 1.

When in doubt, create other arguments that have nothing to do with the central fact that the note was the final straw that triggered US entry, by lots of posts containing other information not related to the main argument in a simpleton attempt to overwhelm the facts with ridiculous verbal machinations. I don’t really care about anything except the fact which you argue against which is the note was the final trigger for US entry and not USW. Get over it.

I don’t really care what the last straw is or was. What I am concerned about is your insistence that the telgram was the most important factor. There is a difference between something being the last straw and the most important straw.

But my insistence was that the Note was the last straw. The most important factor was not USW. Keep arguing against that point with all sorts of posts that attempt to enlarge the argument to include other things, since the main point is true and you know it.

[Imperious Leader]

Once again you show your inability to read critically. It “helped.” Nowhere does it say it was the most important. It does suggest that David Kahn says that it was the most important secret message in history. But that is not the same as saying it was the most important cause of US entry, unless you count German sinking of neutral US ships as a secret message.

But i am saying the Note was the final straw that triggered US entry. Try arguing against that. You wont. Also, when we lost two other ships before it did not trigger the war so the note was that trigger.

Funny how you didn’t address this:

"In mid-march 1917, German U-boats sank three American merchant ships. Outraged about the violation of American neutrality, President Wilson called a meeting with his cabinet. Each cabinet member argued for war. On April 2, Wilson asked Congress to declare war on Germany to “make the world safe for democracy.” -American Anthem, Holt-Rinehart-Winston, 2007

I’m going to bed. I have to work early.  I eagerly await your futile attempt at dismissing the above historical source. Not only is it clear that the U-boat warfare was the most important cause, if I cared enough to argue it, it seems also that it might have been the last straw too. But I am satisfied with repeatedly showing Unrestricted Submarine Warfare being the MAIN cause of US entry into the war according to several historical sources, while all you have shown was that the telegram was of at least some, perhaps much, importance (which I have never argued).

I don’t need to address points that have little to do with the central fact that the note triggered the war, not USW. Get over it. The only way you even have any argument is to constantly throw up other ideas and avoid the central truth that the note triggered the war. That is not open to much interpretation.

[Imperious Leader]

One more for good measure:

http://history.state.gov/milestones/1914-1920/WWI

“Germany’s resumption of submarine attacks on passenger and merchant ships in 1917 was the primary motivation behind Wilson’s decision to lead the United States into World War I.”

Funny how that comes from the SAME SOURCE you quoted in post 27. That’s not just unsporting. That’s unethical, unless you somehow didn’t see it.

And if you also READ THE DOCUMENT:

Wilson cited Germany’s violation of its pledge to suspend unrestricted submarine warfare in the North Atlantic and the Mediterranean, and its attempts to entice Mexico into an alliance against the United States, as his reasons for declaring war.

Funny how you left this part out of your quoted source. Funny how they list the note second meaning it was the final influence to trigger war.

[Imperious Leader]

Regarding the Zimmerman Note:

More than anything else, it hardened the peace-loving American people to the conviction that war with Germany was an absolutely necessary step.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/zimmermann.htm

Some of those in the United States who still held out for neutrality at first claimed the telegram was a fake. This notion was dispelled two days later, when Zimmermann himself confirmed its authenticity.Public opinion in the United States now swung firmly toward American entrance into World War I. On April 2, Wilson went before Congress to deliver a message of war.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/zimmermann-telegram-published-in-united-states

Until that point, the United States had tried to remain neutral in World War I. However, the British and other allies were begging and pleading for help. Attitudes in the US were shifting towards war, and the telegram acted as a catalyst. The British capitalized on that attitude, and in a politically smart move, they showed the United States the telegram on February 24, 1917.
    The United States published the telegram, making the public aware of it on March 1. The public opinion quickly became a definite pro-war. Congress officially declared war against Germany and its allies on April 6, 1917.

http://library.thinkquest.org/28005/flashed/timemachine/courseofhistory/zimmerman.shtml

Balfour, knowing full well that the telegram might lead the Americans to enter the war on Britain and France’s side, had nevertheless hesitated to show it to Page. The Royal Navy admiral whose office, codenamed Room 40, had intercepted and decoded the telegram had also been wracked with doubt about what to do. Although Admiral Sir William Hall knew exactly how important the telegram was, he had to find a way to show it to the Americans without revealing that his office had broken the German codes. Once the Germans learned that their codes and ciphers were no longer secure, they would stop using them and a veritable gold mine of information would stop flowing into Hall’s office. Only once he was convinced that he had found a way to protect his precious secret did he give the telegram to Balfour.

http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/world-war-i/essays/zimmermann-telegram-and-american-entry-world-war-i

You are now dismissed from class. None of these sources say USW was the main cause, but they do say that the note was the final cause of the US entry or they also say it was the main cause of entry.