You are the one who is dancing around the fact that the UK withheld the note in order to allow anti-german sentiment to grow because of the effect unrestricted sub warfare (USW from now on) would have on American opinion. The note being the last straw does not mean it was the only or even the most important cause.
Funny how you invent new points after the ones i shot down. :roll: I only said the Zimmerman note was the vital influence to draw US into war. Now if you want to create new arguments in an effort to bury the truth that the Zimmerman Note was the key factor and not UNRESTRICTED SUBMARINE WARFARE, OR THIS NEW THING YOU INVENT. It is common knowledge that what triggered the war was the note and you have not once acknowledge that fact, and instead harp on other factors that DID NOT DIRECTLY TRIGGER THE WAR. I FIND THAT AMUSING.
http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/zimmermann/
It can be admitted that it was the “last straw,” but for the last straw to matter, there has to be many other straws. No one is saying the Zimmerman telegram is totally irrelevant, but please find a source (if you can) that states that as being a more important reason than USW (don’t forget that the note was sent because Germany was planning on resuming USW)
sure ANY History BOOK WILL TELL YOU THE NOTE WAS THE TRIGGER THAT CAUSED THE WAR. Please find one that says it was not the note, but unrestricted submarine warfare or pancakes or whatever.
Actually, you did:
Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 10:57:24 am
This “big shot investors” argument is completely bogus. That is not why we went to war. The direct threat was the possibility of ceding former Mexican areas back to Mexico, which for public opinion ( especially the people living in these areas) would turn these folks against Germany in a second. Unrestricted submarine warfare could be another event to trigger war, but the Zimmerman note came out first. Most people would not hate Germany for sinking ships as much as knowing if Germany wins Mexico could take back large parts of US.
Bold added. That speaks for itself. It no wonder you can’t keep track of what historians write on the subject when you can’t keep track of what you yourself say.
So i guess you cant read then. read the words “The direct threat was the possibility of ceding former Mexican areas back” The threat of aggression and not actual a realistic outcome of what Mexico was capable of was the key factor. It was what Germany was capable of doing in order to win the war, which became a direct threat to USA. The actual threat of “Mexico” did not worry America, but if Germany won the war they would be prepared to follow up with partitioning the states to foreign powers.
Let’s look at the italicized section (I added those italics btw). When did the Zimmermann note come out? Fact is, it was not given to Wilson until Feb 24, and not released to the public until March 1.
Strange how the US severed diplomatic relations with Germany on the 3rd of February, at least 3 weeks before the public or even Wilson knew the telegram existed. Strange also how this was just three days after the declaration of USW. Severing of diplomatic relations isn’t war, but it is a pretty huge step, don’t you agree?
Funny how you invented yet another salient point about what caused the war, rather than admitting that the Note caused the war. That white elephant must be getting heavy and i won’t relieve you of it’s burden.
http://learning.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/03/feb-3-1917-u-s-breaks-relations-with-germany-plans-to-declare-war/
Don’t forget to read this part:
“Hollweg�s announcement prompted Wilson to break relations three days later.
Wilson and Congress moved toward declaring war over the next two months. Their decisions were also influenced by a telegram sent by Arthur Zimmerman, the German foreign minister, to Germany�s Mexican ambassador.”
LOLOL
Their decisions were also influenced by a telegram sent by Arthur Zimmerman
Case closed. Check and Mate.
So yes, the note mattered, but as the above site shows the redeclaration of USW might not have been the last straw, but it was a bigger pile of straw than the note was. If the note is supremely important, why did another event cause severing of relations (including sending the German ambassador home) and the movement toward war BEFORE the note was released? � If the note was supremely important, why does The Beard’s Basic History of the United States (Doubleday, 1944) not mention the telegram at all but DOES mention the six torpedoed American ships in Feb and March 1917 (That’s the book I happen to have on the shelf at the moment on the topic).
Because that book was written in 1944 ( during ww2) and real Historians have had time to sort out the actual influences. It takes many decades of reflection to sort out the causes, and everybody knows the Note was the major contribution. Just acknowledge that and move on.
Still not convinced? � Let’s take a look at Wilson’s speech to congress on Dec. 2nd.
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/usawardeclaration.htm
First of all, a quick search of the document shows at least 8 mentions of “submarine.” How many COMBINED mentions of Zimmerman(n), note, or telegram do we find? Zero. Zilch. Nada. This is the president’s speech asking congress for war. If the note was more important than USW wouldn’t it make sense that the note would be mentioned somewhere close to as much as USW? Maybe just once? But it isn’t mentioned. Not once. Was it relevant in turning public opinion against the Germans? Sure. Was it the last straw, the one thing that took it over the edge? Possibly. But was it the most important cause? If we are to answer honestly after carefully looking at the evidence, the answer is no.
This is why you should not be involved in understanding History. The Note was a sensitive paper which got intercepted by the British. So to acknowledge the code was broken would subvert future interceptions. It would be the same problem if in WW2, FDR says “we broke the Japanese code because we tricked them by reporting the water tanks at Midway were out.”
Don’t just read facts without tying them together to make sense of it all.
I wonder why you haven’t brought any sources into the discussion? Do they not say what you want them to? When that happens sir, it usually means its time to reflect on your historical opinions.
Because it is a well known fact that the Zimmerman Note was the trigger for US entry. It is so basic and you keep inventing new crap to pile out that truth because you lost this argument so long ago and I’m just amusing myself with the entertainment you provide.
