Iraq, again

[alamein]

cystic- I realize swinging the argument like that may seem pretty ludicrous to you, but it seemed only the next logical step in the way I’m seeing the arguments. EXAGGERATED yeah, but were do you stop? if you say that isreal should return the lands it captured, and that the US should return the lands of manifest destiny, where do you stop? why don’t we feel bad for killing off the native populations of the americas and give them back their land? they have every right to conduct terrorist attacks against us according to the arguments put forth. we killed them almost for sport. the israeli’s aren’t doing that. why should they be confined to reservations on the crappiest parts of their nation- far from their anscestral homes, and be made to feel thankful for government handouts. OH that’s right, we beat them into submission- unlike israel is doing.
I don’t think it’s ludicrous. just a gross exaggeration of how I think some of you think. at least isreal doesn’t have a football team called the “jerusalem stinking palestinians”.

[Yanny]

I think you’re wrong. It wouldn’t happen in America today because we’re not attacked by terrorists on a daily or weekly basis. But if suicide bombings became a regular occurence in this country, then watch out–becuase Americans would support any measure to take out terrorists. You can’t compare Israel to us in terms of how they’re expected to respond, we’re in entirely different situations.

So, your in New York City. There has been several suicide bombings this month. Government thinks theres a terrorist meeting going on. Government fires one off into a building, where they think the meeting is going on. They hit the wrong building, and kill 26 people.

Can you say impeachment? Murder Trial?

I personally think, we will attack iraq and uncover all the proof you need. and then your opinions will be swayed in much the same manner as those americans who oppossed WW2. not that you are wrong mind you, some people just look at facts differently. as a veteran I’m already pre disposed towards saddam. it will take less of an argument to convince me. now if we wre going into china- I have many chinese friends- it would take more than the sufferings of the tibetten monks to turn me against them. besides you guys seem to be more inclined towards traditional news outlets for info- CNN MSNBC ABC , I listen to neal boortz, rush and hannity for my news.

Theres a difference between News and Debate shows. Sean Hannity and Rush are debaters, they don’t give you facts. I don’t go to Donahue for news. I go to the newspaper.

OH, I don’t get to watch fox news much, but on the radio last week sean hannity had a guest on that was a former weapons inspector. he was part of the four man decision making team that chose the inspection sites (I wish I could remember his name), he said that on the hannity and colmes show he would bring out more proof that the french government actually compromised the sites by relaying them ahead of time to the Iraqies. to do their job he had to originally developed two lists, one which would be shared ahead of time with the french, and another real inspection site list- just to do his job effectively. and then when that ruse wore off they had to go with three lists, and allow the french attache’ to “find” the second list.

I was listening to the broadcast and you are wrong. The Frenchman who was involved was not a member of the French Government. He was a businessman from a French weapons company, who was a specialist there to identify weapons. He obviously was bought off or something. You should listen to the facts, there was a story about the incident in the Washington post. Hannity or Rush or Donahue give their own point of view, not facts.

and Bush does not have an eco/political reason to attack Iraq??? If Bush was a lawyer from CT there would be very little activity in Iraq, even if the CIA did actually dig up any evidence at all of the possibility of WMD i suspect.

John Mccain should of been elected, we’d be in such a better position right now.

[cystic crypt]

@alamein:

cystic- I realize swinging the argument like that may seem pretty ludicrous to you, but it seemed only the next logical step in the way I’m seeing the arguments. EXAGGERATED yeah, but were do you stop? if you say that isreal should return the lands it captured, and that the US should return the lands of manifest destiny, where do you stop? why don’t we feel bad for killing off the native populations of the americas and give them back their land? they have every right to conduct terrorist attacks against us according to the arguments put forth. we killed them almost for sport. the israeli’s aren’t doing that. why should they be confined to reservations on the crappiest parts of their nation- far from their anscestral homes, and be made to feel thankful for government handouts. OH that’s right, we beat them into submission- unlike israel is doing.
I don’t think it’s ludicrous. just a gross exaggeration of how I think some of you think. at least isreal doesn’t have a football team called the “jerusalem stinking palestinians”.

Quite a difference between attacking a sovereign country not apparently doing anything aggressive 10 years after attempting to annex a territory formerly part of it as opposed to allowing a force such as 1939 Germany annex and obliterate every country within reach. I don’t see the connection here.
Also i’m completely missing the connection between laying seige to a people on the other side of the planet for oil interests and the British and American treatments/wrongs inflicted upon native American and Canadians.
It’s kind of worrying, in a way, this whole manifest destiny. If America successfully annexed Canada in 1812, i suppose that is something i would have to live with. Interestingly many of us here would welcome Quebec’s departure from confederation given certain conditions.

[DeviantScripter]

Theres a difference between News and Debate shows. Sean Hannity and Rush are debaters, they don’t give you facts. I don’t go to Donahue for news. I go to the newspaper.

The newspaper? They’ve got just as big an agenda to push as the other two guys. Only theirs is usually slanted left.

You want uninhibited news?…go to the internet.

[Yanny]

Oh, and everything you see on the internet is true. I read the Washington Post, which I find to be a fairly objective newspaper.

[alamein]

cystic- right, I kind of left the iraq string and was commenting about the isreali vs palestinian thing yanni and emu god had going there. sorry if my normal nonsensical babble became even more of a mess there.
besides what do we need canada for, we’ve already stolen most of your hockey teams and all the best players (only using this to lighten the mood). :lol:

I believe the inspector did indeed refer to the french man as a “french government attache”… does his radio show have transcripts? in either case the point was that the weapons inspection/destruction program was compromised and was there fore ineffective in finding and removing these weapons which we knew to exist.

hey guys I finally found the spell checker. know I can spell my english almost as well as you foreigners! :wink:

[Yanny]

Might have a transcript, where to find it I don’t know. But I clearly remember him saying he was a French Businessman working as a specialist (in consulting maybe) with the inspectors, and not a member of the French Government.

[StrongBad1988]

@Deviant:Scripter:

The newspaper? They’ve got just as big an agenda to push as the other two guys. Only theirs is usually slanted left.

yeah, many of the big newspapers are clearly slanted to the left, such as the washington post. thats why my parents get the washington times… it actually tells you the news, it doesn’t just trash conservatives

[yourbuttocks]

I found this essay, while not very good, is something you guys might find interesting:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/next/134624183_next-prowar02.html

[Yanny]

yeah, many of the big newspapers are clearly slanted to the left, such as the washington post. thats why my parents get the washington times… it actually tells you the news, it doesn’t just trash conservatives

Look past the Editorials page and you’ll find news :)

[StrongBad1988]

here’s an example of 'news" from the washington post : all conservatives are racist (see more on pg 12) liberals are so awesome, you want to vote for them in the next election (more on pg7) conservatives are really stupid (see more on pg3)

[alamein]

:lol:
this kids great!

[cystic crypt]

@StrongBad1988:

here’s an example of 'news" from the washington post : all conservatives are racist (see more on pg 12) liberals are so awesome, you want to vote for them in the next election (more on pg7) conservatives are really stupid (see more on pg3)

ahhh . . . the whining hyperbole of an ultra-conservative whiner.
Although not thoroughly versed in American newspapers, the Washington Post appeared fairly middleground to conservative, particular in its support of Bush and his little Iraq ideas . . . .

[StrongBad1988]

@cystic:

Although not thoroughly versed in American newspapers, the Washington Post appeared fairly middleground to conservative, particular in its support of Bush and his little Iraq ideas . . . .

you want a middleground paper? read the LA times, or the Washington times. the post is so liberal it isn’t funny. where exactly did you get the idea that they support the war in Iraq? i’m just curious… maybe you got confused with the washington TIMES, beacuse that supports the war in Iraq and its middleground, but the post is totally a bucket of crap.

[Yanny]

Read their editorials :) At least half are either a) Complaining about the Anti-War protests or b) Pushing for Iraq.

[StrongBad1988]

sure, they have several conservative editorial columnists, but this comes NOWHERE close to matching up to all the liberal crap they have in the pages preceeding the editorial sections.

[StrongBad1988]

400 posts! here i come TG Moses! :P

CC edit - Strongbad, you know these are inappropriate.

Yanny Edit - What he said. Don’t do it again.

[yourbuttocks]

Leftish slants can be explained easily; silly idealists want to become journalists.

[Guest]

@alamein:

F_ALK- I’m starting to like arguing with you. not even yanni disagrees with me as much as you do. Buddy I’m not a racist. that card gets thrown around whenever someone says anything remotly conservative around here.

Well, maybe it was just a reply to your commie accusations. As well, i can’t recall that i really called you a racist, i merely pointed out that noone is as perfect as he thinks to be: a lot of prejudices can be interpreted as hidden racism.

but to be racist I’d have to have it out for another group of people based on an attribute that I can easily Identify (race color whatever) and I don’t.

The point is: you don’t need something that makes them easily identifable.
The german jews in the 1920’s and 30’s were not different from the german non-jews. You couldn’t identify them unless you waited in front of their temple to see who is going in. The very very very vast majority was secular, maybe the only only way to identify some was the butchers, but not more. Still, they were targeted by the worst “racism” the world has ever seen.

notice you say the “never proven Iraq Al Quaeda” collaberation theory-
the president has said he has info linking saddam to al quaeda, and he plans to release more intell. on this through powell on feb 5th. does he have to compromise his sources and get people killed to show you personally proof? I personally feel that once we go in, we’ll find the weapons we want and the proof you need.

US intelligence agencies have failed often enough not to risk a war. Especially, when it has to appear that the often mentioned proof is not existing.

I think the whole debate that the country’s going thru over Iraq is a result of how stupid we really are. for example- had bush not procrastinated and just started bombing Iraq- or even invaded, people may have grumbled but accepted it.

I can’t speak for the US people, but i am pretty sure that the world would not have accepted that.

[Guest]

@alamein:

F_alk- what kind of taxes do you pay there now? I pay somewhere between 36-45% of my income in taxes. it’s hard to say because it is hidden taxes here.
…Oh if that "can’t work Shouldn’t survive thing made you mad - try this:
-If you Don’t Pay Taxes - you shouldn’t have a right to vote - especially on tax increases.
…
I wasn’t born a right wing devil- the world and all it’s scum made me this way.

The income tax rates here, with social and health insurances, are higher:
Icome tax can be up to 47%; health insurance is about 15%, social security are about 25%, the later have an upper limit, anything above that is not taxed.
Of course: the richer you are, the better your accountants to find loopholes and avoid these rates.

Some interesting points in germany:
In the 70’s the governments tax income was 30% of workers and employees income-tax, and 30% of taxing wealth and cooperations.
Today, it’s 35% by workers and employees, and 15% by wealth and cooperations.
From that i deduct that you would strongly favor the german rich not to vote :)……

I belive you were not born right wing… but you fell for the right wing propaganda of “whose fault” it is.
If you have a look here, you can see that in the 90’s the social support for the “lowest third of incomes” decreased, while it was increased for the highest third (now proportionally being higher than in the UK, France or Denmark).
Some time ago, a CEO had 20 times the income of a qualified worker, today it is a factor of 300!!! Between 1995 and 2000, the CEOs had an average raise in their income of 300%, compared to 10% for their workers. And the ones that are classified “poor” are usually long-time jobless (not saying anything about whose fault it is that they are),
single working mothers and families with more than 2 kids !!

Whoever says that the economy is suffering… should first have a look where the money went in the times when it did not suffer !!