Iraq is a political subject.
Iraq, again
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but our own leftist attitudes towards the environment have left us with little other choice- unless you want to pay $5.00 a gallon for gas.
Why not? People in Europe and Asia buy gasoline for more than that. This would be a great way to improve CAFE standards and force auto companies make their cars more evironmentally friendly.
you communists have no Idea how well you have it here.
Who are you refering to, me? :) Also I consider myself one of the luckiest men on this planet if that’s what you mean. I just want others to have the same advantages that I have. :)
war makes us great, war helps us insure that - IF YOU WON’T RESPECT OUR RIGHT TO PERSUE OUR INDIVIDUAL FREEDOMS WE WILL KILL YOU!
War does not make one great. Meaningless war = meaningless waste. I will protect our freedoms but not from blind ambition.
in America we are taught to tolerate, other countries are taught merely to hate.
Should we not preach our ideals to others instead of spreading more violence? Such people as Martin Luther King Jr or Bayard Rustin spoke of this once.
and there IS speculation that the big red machine HAS working ICBM’s (does anyone remember what those are??)
NK and Iraq should be handled through the UN. :)
PS before you all deny being communists - remember that they call themselves socialists too
Wait… so you think communist = socialist? :lol:
BTW, don’t make us Conservatives look bad ;)
The Chinese government is responsible enough to know the danger in using such weapons.
Yes, and unlike NK, they are a large part of the international community.
The USSR did not want to conquer the world and make it Communist.
And that’s what they did wrong. :)
Just because someone may be a Communist, doesn’t mean they don’t believe in attacking Iraq.
Yes, me and my communist friends often debate on what to do with Iraq. Personally, I am more in the line with Bush, though my friends are against any acts of imperalism. However, we can all agree that Bush cannot act unilaterally and without the proper approval of the UN.
their doctrine was to crush all opposition!
No, under communism opposition parties would still be allowed to exist…
Communism is exactly like that, pure democracy.Have you ever heard of the belin air lift? that was just one of countless tugs of war to see if we’d flinch so the soviets could dominate Europe.
Every Marxist-Communist that I know of can agree with me, the USSR of the old was not communist but a perversion Stalinist Dictatorship.
HOWEVER that being said Kruschev was a great man- he was a hero at stalin grad- and even took gen. paulus’ pistol. HE alone knew the true danger of the cuban missle crisis. while american generals urged kennedy to storm the beaches in cuba, he knew the soviets had orders to nuke the US on sight. HE backed Down when HE had the position of strength, even though it meant his career and reputation were over- to save his grand daughter and the entire world.
Kruschev was a very two-sided character. Sure there are some positive aspects like you mentioned (such as his denunciation of Stalin), however there were also some fallbacks like his ordering of shooting at protesting workers in Novocherkassk. Anyways, if you read more into history, it was the American politicians who more likely wanted to jump the gun when it came to the use of nuclear weapons.
besides communist societies suck- they rob the wealthy and middle class to create an almost serf like class (I said serf like not smurf like)- subjegated by and oppressed by a large military, controlled by wealthy an priviledged members of the party. we don’t run over anti gov. protesters with tanks. unfortunately we have to let them BLA BLA BLA
Yanny this thread is getting to big. please tell me how to fast forward to the end (of every posting ?) or can you start a new thread?What you are talking about is not communism but offbreed bonapartism. However if you think this thread is getting too big, I suggest reading my two previous debates on Communism against YourButtocks and Horten. Here I will explain to you indepth your misconcepetions.
The kibbutz is democratic, people may enter and leave if they wish, everyone gets an equal allowance and there are no Israeli froces there to make sure the voting council has its own way.
Then what happened to it? As for a Kibbutz society, it differentiates from Marxist-Communism as some people will need more than others according to their needs.
He forced the Americans to withdraw from Turkey.
Weren’t there also missile bases in US-friendly Europe or were does not removed? :)
The original goal of Stalin was not to take over the world, but rather along with the Americans, to ensure that Germany could never threaten the USSR or the world again like it did in World War 2. Stalin wanted to set up Eastern Europe as a buffer zone between the USSR and Western Europe to prevent another Operation Barbarossa. His fear was that a United Germany could stop once again invade the USSR, and 15 million dead was a lot to the Soviets in WW2, another invasion could cost many millions more.
Yes, twice in less than half a century did German armies roll across Russian soil. Also Stalin had a obsession over Hitler.
This left the vaccuum open for Germany to unite and become the next major power on the continent until after World War 2, where the Allies re-shaped Europe to stop GErmany from rising.
Not exactly. The Western Nations realized early on that a strong, stable Germany was critical to the rebuilding of Europe. A rebuilt Germany was vital to the European economy, though the USSR was determined to keep it parts of Germany lost in the past.
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@Deviant:Scripter:
What was the evidence? So now you’re never going to believe another word the CIA says? That’s a dangerous game you’re playing if we start believing the word of our enemies over that of our own country…
What was the evidene? Well, they never showed it, just like they didn’T show us their evidence for SH up to now.
For me playing a dangerous game if you don’t belive your secret service (? i am not sure i see what you wanted to say with that)….
@Deviant:Scripter:
@cystic:
They lie:
…4.) To protect the national security of this country.
But still they lie…. and for me (not coming from that country) the more important thing is that they lie and try to influence everyone in sight (including other countries governments) to protect their own country.
Somehow like convincing others that they have to pay part of your bill (i know, i’ve stretched far with that, so no need to comment on that last one, but the reasons behind both are the same: trying to involve others for mainly your profit, not theirs)
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- unless you want to pay $5.00 a gallon for gas. and I gaurantee you- that all of you nonsense spouters would be ready to nuke saddam if that was to happen.
how much is a gallon?
If i had / wanted a car, then i would have to pay about 1.1€ per cubic decimetre. And i don’t mind. All you have to do is not drive one of these tank-like cars, and drive it for the 10 metres to the next bakery for your morning rolls.… when I grew up as a boy in germany - under carter- americans were FREQUENTLY targets for terrorist bombings and executions.
But not in germany, at least not FREQUENTLY……
My own family visited a shopping complex in78-79 the day before terrorists blew it up. now of course we knew these were communist trained and armed insurgents, but it’s amazing how little we could do about it until reagan came in.
It was not Reagan who solved that problem. The main wave of terrorism in
Germany was in 1977, and apart from some areas (Northern Ireland, Northern Spain) this was for most of europe. The later eruptions were not much compared to those.he restored pride to the military-
Hitler did that as well, but i would not cheer him for that.
and thru necessary - yet reckless- spending he broke the soviet union! which until that time I lived in daily fear of. I lived about 100 miles outside of Fulda- and the Fulda gap was their main avenue of entry into the rhine area. you communists have no Idea how well you have it here. you’ve never lived with duck and cover, or had to reherse evacuation plans so you could get back to the US before your dad’s unit had to blow up the country. nothing!
Well, i live in the country “your dad’s unit (would) have to blow up”, thank you. And from the wording you used right there, i don’t mind that you had to suffer that much from that american paranoia. As long as there was a german-german border, i never lived more than 50 km from that…. 100 miles from the border to the west, and you would have been in another country!
I have seen that turtle from the fifties, promoting duck and cover… we saw it in school, and the whole class laughed it’s ass off: Sure a newspaper would protect you from an atominc bomb hmmhmmm…So, i have lived there, and i never feared the Soviets would come. I feared the US would do something stupid more often!
war makes us great, war helps us insure that - IF YOU WON’T RESPECT OUR RIGHT TO PERSUE OUR INDIVIDUAL FREEDOMS WE WILL KILL YOU!
“Viel Feind, viel Ehr’” …. that was one of the things they said during WWI here: Many enemies means much honour to be earned.
War helps insure that the mighty can force its will to everyone else.
Something like (i will elave out the caps): If you won’t respect our people’s right to persue its collective goals of aquiring more land in the east, we will kill you!..PS before you all deny being communists - remember that they call themselves socialists too. :D
From who has been called communist by US-americans, it is more a compliment than an insult.
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the 70’s and early 80’s were a rough time for american’s in europe. I was only a small child then (I’m 29) I grew up only knowing that these people wanted to kill me and my dad. I didn’t understand why. there isn’t any reason, they have serious problemssomeone tells them it’s your fault, then they get a gun and try to kill you for some percieved injustice.
They were a rough time for anyone who was a symbol for capitalism in europe. And the reason is what you said: terrorists feel there is (at least) injustice against them, and see no other means to fight it than violence.
Some feel threatened and take up the guns…… even today, and even governments. -
Even the crazed Kruschnev in the Cuban Misile Crisis knew the danger and msot likely would not have used his nuclear arsenal. He was jsut trying to win a victory for the USSR.
That’s why i wouldn’t call him crazed, he was more sane than the whole bunch of US generals at that time.
What’s wrong with Communism? …
clap clap clap Always a surprise when i have to agree with EmuGod.
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I can’t believe you just said the communists never wanted to take over the world! are you insane? their doctrine was to crush all opposition! I know I lived there!! Have you ever heard of the belin air lift? that was just one of countless tugs of war to see if we’d flinch so the soviets could dominate Europe.
And now explain the difference between Stalin and Trotzki, and what Krushevs peaceful coexistance means……
The american doctrine was “commies are evil and they want to crush us”, i guess you mixed that up a little there. The Berlin Air lift was a try, but come on: If your western allies were too stupid to fix land-transit routes to Berlin in the treaties, wouldn’t you have tried?
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It’s like my daddy always said if you want friends don’t discuss religion or politics
If i want friends than i do exactly that, otherwise i have “buddies”, and i don’t know how far i could trust them…
That’s one fo the misperceptions again: The US is pissed that someone of their allies stands up and says: “I don’t think that is smart”. In europe, that’s what friends are for: telling you when you are about to make a mistake. It seems like in the US friends are something obedient and submissive… then it must be a really strange country…
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we know FOR SURE that he had biological weapons in '91, when he gassed the Kurds, what evidence has he shown us that he got rid of those??
The gassing of the Kurds was before '91 and he used chemical weapons for that.
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@cystic:
- Iraq is not the only country that may be suspect of producing WMD, or harboring supporting terrorists/funding terrorism. My goodness, if this is America’s only criteria for going after them - some suspicion, then they will have a lot of work to do once they’ve finished with Iraq
Actually, there are UN weapon inspectors in 70 (!) countries around the globe…. let’s bomb them all!!!
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@TG:
He forced the Americans to withdraw from Turkey.
Weren’t there also missile bases in US-friendly Europe or were does not removed? :)
That was later. Pershing 2 and Cruise Missiles were put in by Reagan…
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@F_alk:
It’s like my daddy always said if you want friends don’t discuss religion or politics
If i want friends than i do exactly that, otherwise i have “buddies”, and i don’t know how far i could trust them…
That’s one fo the misperceptions again: The US is pissed that someone of their allies stands up and says: “I don’t think that is smart”. In europe, that’s what friends are for: telling you when you are about to make a mistake. It seems like in the US friends are something obedient and submissive… then it must be a really strange country…
Americans confuse “healthy discussion and criticism of a world superpower” as well as “disliking of its foreign policy” with anti-Americanism - more propaganda - “its everyone against us”. There’s a football coach here who uses that mentality to inspire football players to win football games.
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did falk really just reply 9 times in a row?
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@F_alk:
we know FOR SURE that he had biological weapons in '91, when he gassed the Kurds, what evidence has he shown us that he got rid of those??
The gassing of the Kurds was before '91 and he used chemical weapons for that.
even so, saddam won’t show those to us either. and since they’re just “chemical weapons”(oh which are just always fine to have) i guess that means you wouldn’t really mind if he gassed where you live with some of these chincy “chemical weapons”
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@F_alk:
we know FOR SURE that he had biological weapons in '91, when he gassed the Kurds, what evidence has he shown us that he got rid of those??
The gassing of the Kurds was before '91 and he used chemical weapons for that.
even so, saddam won’t show those to us either. and since they’re just “chemical weapons”(oh which are just always fine to have) i guess that means you wouldn’t really mind if he gassed where you live with some of these chincy “chemical weapons”
Hello?
Anybody there?
What makes you think i would get to that ridiculous conclusion??
All i did was correcting you, of course with the aim to discredit you for your display of and judging on incorrect knowledge. -
f_alk
I lived just outside of ascheffensburg, closer to wurzberg, I ball parked the 100 miles to fulda I cant exactly recall. at the time I was recalling terrorists blew up some buildings on the (i Believe) kiaserslautern kasern.
I also remember that terrorists captured and hanged some master sergant or colonel- and that as a matter of policy- due to the danger- soldiers weren’t recommended to go into the localities off base alone.
the blowing up your country was also a matter of military policy. we frequently had neo or neoc (some lame acronim) evacuation drills, where every one would learn where to go if the russians attacked so that we could escape- presumeably back to the USA.
and the blowing up thing was that if the russians did attack, and made it to the rhine- we’d nuke the whole darn country to prevent them from having it.
I’m glad you didn’t feel threatened, not that there was anything for you to do if you did. your country’s fate wasn’t in your hands anymore at that point. I lived there from 78-95 and although bavaria is nice americans aren’t well recieved. we are too culturally different.
and don’t argue with that either, I have many many photos of the american’s go home protests and the anti nuke protests from that time.
I think I may even still have a poster as well.
in arguing here I am starting to see some interesting aspects of human behavior. I can see that their is some disparity between the facts- at least as I see them, and other’s perceptions of those same facts. I wonder if we were discussing roswell and I said that it is unlikely that the USA captured an alien crew and spaceship. based not on some report but merely on the overwhelming odds that such a race exists and that travel (many hundreds of times) faster than light is highly improbable. would you still argue? I think you would. WHY? because your opinions are already made up. the government lies therefore there ARE aliens.
I won’t argue anymore, but one must admit that our reality, is based solely on our own personal experiences and our own set of facts as we percieve them, and thusly what we believe in and what we are willing to fight and die for is based souly on our own biased individualism.
ps F_alk I really enjoyed my time in germany- don’t think I didn’t. but I was an outsider looking in. here I have things that I never could have gotten there. we are culturally different- -
presumeably back to the USA.
If there was a war, the US would be the last place I’d want to be :) Africa would seem like a really nice continent.
your country’s fate wasn’t in your hands anymore at that point.
Hence the Irony, the Americans refused to let Democracy work in Germany. We were supposed to be standing up for the freedom of the German people, in reality we were running a puppet Government.
I wonder if we were discussing roswell and I said that it is unlikely that the USA captured an alien crew and spaceship. based not on some report but merely on the overwhelming odds that such a race exists and that travel (many hundreds of times) faster than light is highly improbable. would you still argue? I think you would. WHY? because your opinions are already made up. the government lies therefore there ARE aliens.
The Government lies therefore we cannot disprove or prove anything at Roswell.
I won’t argue anymore, but one must admit that our reality, is based solely on our own personal experiences and our own set of facts as we percieve them, and thusly what we believe in and what we are willing to fight and die for is based souly on our own biased individualism.
I know this is directed to Falk, but I am not willing to die for Bush’s oil friends. I am willing to die to defend my country, like if say, we were actually in danger.
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yanny, maybe I didn’t make my point too clearly.
firstly, I would like to apologize to all those commies who were affected by me calling them commies. I just thought it was something I could hear sheriff justice (jackie gleason) saying “what we’ve got here is just plain, old fashioned communism!”
secondly I think the $5.00 per gallon thing missed it’s mark. what I was trying to say was that - IF we are going there for OIL (which I doubt). than we have only liberals to blame. we have maore oil in this country than anyone else in the world- and yet we can’t drill it. normally for environmental concerns (I too am concerned but what choice do we have?), but also because for some reason unions make it more expensive to drill our own oil than to import it. I wasn’t asking if it would be fair for americans to pay as much for gas as other less influential nations. america’s economy is driven by oil. if gas crosses the two dollar thresh hold you will see a major economic disaster. and if our economy sinks then the world’s economy destabalizes and the political climate around the world changes. so like it or not - oil is important.
and as a mechanic I know where cars are headed. hydrogen fuel cell cars will be out on tyhe market by 2005. and supposubly they are already in some test markets. but is that the answer- no. over the last 15 years we’ve tripled (and some) fuel economy. in the early 80’s a good car got 12 mpg. now we get 32- 38. has this reduced our dependancy on foreign oil??? no. so explain how a battery powered car will do it??? I’m all for advanced technology in cars. they are sofisticated enough now so that joe shmoe can’t screw around with it anymore. I’m tech savvy and semi edjucated, bring it on - but it won’t stop our need for oil.
and the reply about roswell was exactly what I expected. I said I seriously doubt that our gov. had a space ship. not because they said so, but because of the improbability of faster than light travel and the odds of another INTELLIGENT species of life evolving out there. then as expected you said “we can’t prove or disprove anything” because our gov. lies. THAT’S EXACTLY THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE. you ignore the facts and simply stated the facts of your opinion. (what ever that means)two men from the same small town decide to go to new york city on vacation. for whatever reason they go seperately- traveller A goes, meets a hot chick and parties. Traveller B goes happens to end up in the wrong place at the wrong time, gets brutally beaten and mugged. later they meet back in their hometown to discuss their trip. traveller B exclaims " new York sucks it’s a corrupt cess pool where thugs prey on the unsuspecting". traveller A looks and him puzzled and says “you’re a liar, new york is great”.
who’s right ? well like I said it depends greatly on your point of veiw. in my opinion we should go into Iraq- in the interests of national security. (and YANNI col. powwell will be making those “imaginary” ties of mine -between sadam and bin laden- quite real next week. why do I think they are linked? we taught sadam. and it’s what we would do. get your weak bossy enemy to attack your strong one, kill two birds with one stone.)
I have a friend in the 82nd air borne. he told me that before he left for afgan. that he was of the opinion that Iraq and somallia were next. and that was before they cranked up the propaganda machine against sadam. -
firstly, I would like to apologize to all those commies who were affected by me calling them commies. I just thought it was something I could hear sheriff justice (jackie gleason) saying “what we’ve got here is just plain, old fashioned communism!”
(not to sound offensive here but…) Its just typical American ignorance toward Communism. I myself do not really support Communism, I support a more moderate form of Economics, but Communism itself has no relation to the Soviets or Chineese. Communism has only taken place on small scales, like the Kibbutz system in Israel. Communism at it’s heart is pure Democracy, more pure than Capitalism.
han we have only liberals to blame. we have maore oil in this country than anyone else in the world- and yet we can’t drill it.
Our oil is mostly depleted. We have a small supply in ANWR Alaska, enough to increase our domestic oil supply by 2%, but not enough to make any difference. Who do I blame? Car company lobbies (Detroit has a big contributing presence in both parties). If the Government would wake up and switch to Nuclear Energy and Hydrogen power, we wouldn’t need oil.
hydrogen fuel cell cars will be out on tyhe market by 2005.
Mainstream hydrogen powered vehicles will be on sale to the public in less than 2 months
I’m all for advanced technology in cars. they are sofisticated enough now so that joe shmoe can’t screw around with it anymore. I’m tech savvy and semi edjucated, bring it on - but it won’t stop our need for oil.
Check out this thread for my solution to our nation’s energy problem. It is my favorite thread which I have started apart from the “God is Facist” one.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=820
I said I seriously doubt that our gov. had a space ship. not because they said so, but because of the improbability of faster than light travel and the odds of another INTELLIGENT species of life evolving out there. then as expected you said “we can’t prove or disprove anything” because our gov. lies. THAT’S EXACTLY THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE. you ignore the facts and simply stated the facts of your opinion. (what ever that means)
My point is, the Government has been covering something up for 50 years, and the American people have a right to know about it. I doubt we’re talking Aliens here, probably some anti-Soviet weapon system or whatever.
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lighten up, it was not ignorance towards communism- it was comedy- smokey and the bandit???
I know enough about the re distribution of wealth to know that in principle, theory and practice it’s wrong. Why should I give up part of what I work for- for the benefit of a few dreggs who can’t survive on their own? why should I go to work and bust my hump to get the same quality of life as my neighbor who is out of work with a “back injury” or my uncle who has no means to support his ten kids. hell they drive nicer cars than I do. that is the essence of communism. take from the haves give to the have nots- everybody’s equal, happy and without social turmoil.
well that fails to take into account peoples desire to be rewarded for hard work. and peoples despair when they see others (who couldn’t survive without government subsistance) rewarded for being sloths.
hell now I’m really upset, let’s discuss the relationship between communism the democratic party and welfare- or for that matter unemployment. any takers??
A MAN IS ONLY WORTH AS MUCH AS HE CAN WORK FOR. it doesn’t matter the skin color, or sexual orientation, what matters to me is could you be useful enough to survive without the government? I can, I do it every day. and I don’t appreciate part of my income going to subsidize dead beat bums who live off of the system.
maybe you can tell me… in a communist society what does the guy who always gives 110% get??? how about the slacker who slides by B>S>ing his way thru life??? -
maybe you can tell me… in a communist society what does the guy who always gives 110% get??? how about the slacker who slides by B>S>ing his way thru life???
this is what i have often thought about. this is why months before the soviet union fell, people in the city were starving to death, b/c the farmers had discovered that it was cheaper to not send their crops to the city at all, to just eat and keep what they needed and let the rest rot. communism CANNOT succeced. to have it work, you need everyone to give 100% ALL THE TIME. this is not possible, as there is no motivation whatsoever. you get paid just as much as the next guy, even if you work for 14 hours a day and he just sits on his butt and watches TV all day. this is why communism has not succeeded anywhere. ever. and it never will.
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