I believe this website is connected to the Matt Maupin MIA situation. Though not directly related.
His Mom & Dad live in Clermont County, Ohio about 2 counties east of me…the other side of Cincinnati, Ohio.
No time now will check it out later.
Iraq, again
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weird me being on the same page with BOTH Falk and Yanny.
Interesting how the US gives a new chapter in the history of “might making right”. I doubt that any country (maybe aside from Canada) could fly aircraft over the US and expect that there would be no attempts made to take it down. How dare Iraq make any attempts at any form of sovereignty! 10 years ago, they demonstrated they didn’t deserve it. Mind you, so did Germany, so there should be little problems for hostile nations to fly over German soil, no?
The same hypocracy applies to the US judicial system. If any US citizens were treated anywhere in the world, they would cry foul over their prosecuting country’s attempts to not follow “superior” American judicial values. Meanwhile America readily stomps out it’s own “values” as one would a $100 bill on fire when dealing with uncharged criminals.
As for the cannisters - i agree. What happened? Some inspectors “found” them, and they vanished? How do we know they are even there in the first place?
And how naive do Americans have to be to believe the CIA? I don’t even believe our own CSIS most of the time, nevermind an organization that lies as often as it tells the truth in order to obscure itself. -
I think it’s really interesting that you (a) believe your secret services, (b) do not believe Saddam Hussein and © ignore worldwide judicial standards for (d) reasons that sound very unconvincing if you take © into account.
I think it’s really interesting that
(a) you can criticize our secret services, yet you’re from which country…?
(b) you would take the word of a genocidal war criminal over the best democracy in the world.
© you seek to apply judicial standards to a man we haven’t even caught yet.All right. I give up. :P
This argument is just going around in circles. I’ll be back to argue it once Bush says we’re going to war and shows us the evidence, until then, there’s not much more to say. -
(a) you can criticize our secret services, yet you’re from which country…?
(b) you would take the word of a genocidal war criminal over the best democracy in the world.
© you seek to apply judicial standards to a man we haven’t even caught yet.a) Thats pretty elitest. His opinion is as valid as yours. Americans are not better than everyone else.
b) “The Best Democracy in the World” is not saying anything. President Bush, the President who disposed more of our Constitutional rights that we in America enjoy, he is saying something. I wouldn’t call him one who promotes Democracy,
c) You seek to just shoot him and be done with it. I don’t know about you, but I believe in the US constitution. We as a country believe in it. Just because one is outside our borders doesn’t mean we stop believing in it.
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@Deviant:Scripter:
I think it’s really interesting that you (a) believe your secret services, (b) do not believe Saddam Hussein and © ignore worldwide judicial standards for (d) reasons that sound very unconvincing if you take © into account.
I think it’s really interesting that
(a) you can criticize our secret services, yet you’re from which country…?
(b) you would take the word of a genocidal war criminal over the best democracy in the world.
© you seek to apply judicial standards to a man we haven’t even caught yet.All right. I give up. :P
This argument is just going around in circles. I’ll be back to argue it once Bush says we’re going to war and shows us the evidence, until then, there’s not much more to say.a) it’s no mystery that the CIA lies, covers-up, and acts in ways that are morally suspect. Even stupid Americans must have noticed that by now.
b) the “best democracy”? According to who? What percent voted for Bush? Where invading a country is at stake, even the “best democracy” (guffaw) must do SOMETHING to prove its case rather than spew rhetoric (that’s all they’ve done so far. I’m amazed that this is the best they’ve come up with. Hitler did no less.)
c) i think “worldwide judicial standards” refers to proof of guilt (true, this does not apply to France and other 2-bit banana republics). -
Americans are not better than everyone else.
Wanna bet? :wink:
This would make an excellent thread, somebody should start one…
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@Deviant:Scripter:
Americans are not better than everyone else.
Wanna bet? :wink:
This would make an excellent thread, somebody should start one…
this is true for the fact that America, like Canada, are in a sense, everyone else. Naturally the opposite is not quite true.
By this i mean that N. America is rich with immigrants (Canada - 18% of the pop are immigrants) from all over the world. Ultimately they’re culture and values do and will find their way to expression, even in a culturalist melting pot like America.
Also Americans, while more fortunate than most, are by no means better (neither are Canadians, Swedes, etc.). Just different with self-imposed values on the rest of the world. -
(a) you can criticize our secret services, yet you’re from which country…?
(b) you would take the word of a genocidal war criminal over the best democracy in the world.
© you seek to apply judicial standards to a man we haven’t even caught yet.a) Thats pretty elitest. His opinion is as valid as yours. Americans are not better than everyone else.
b) “The Best Democracy in the World” is not saying anything. President Bush, the President who disposed more of our Constitutional rights that we in America enjoy, he is saying something. I wouldn’t call him one who promotes Democracy,
c) You seek to just shoot him and be done with it. I don’t know about you, but I believe in the US constitution. We as a country believe in it. Just because one is outside our borders doesn’t mean we stop believing in it.
I heard that France voted “no” to a war in Iraq which means that the issue should be settled - no war in Iraq.
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“Americans better than everyone else”
Wow, you sound like an old-style Roman. And thats not a compliment :)
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Falk, detainment of POWs is not torture. No evidence of ill-treatment has been produced. THey are not formally declared POWs you say? Did Al-Quaeda formally declare war?
AS for the points brought up in the AI report, compare the U.S. one to the German one and remember that the U.S. has several fold more people:
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Your correct YB. In fact, the only evidence of abuse that has been presented is abuse against our military personell, by the 'Qaeda prisoners. Feces thrown at them, riots started with rocks and stick, etc…
Yanni, the comment about American being better than other countries really depends on what criteria you’re judging us on.
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Remember, pride of your country is also what others see it as.
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Falk, detainment of POWs is not torture. No evidence of ill-treatment has been produced. THey are not formally declared POWs you say? Did Al-Quaeda formally declare war?
Too bad they aren’t POWs. Bush formerly declared war. The Taliban declared war.
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Yanny, congress has to declare war. We are fighting Al-QUaeda, that is who the prisoners are.
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Falk, detainment of POWs is not torture. No evidence of ill-treatment has been produced. THey are not formally declared POWs you say? Did Al-Quaeda formally declare war?
AS for the points brought up in the AI report, compare the U.S. one to the German one and remember that the U.S. has several fold more people:
I never claimed that Germany is better than the US, i accused the hypocrisy (sp?) of the US though.
Al-Quaeda did not declare war, you did…. where all the Polish, Dutch, soldiers from Belgium and elsewhere taken by Nazi-soldiers not POW, because Germany did not declare war on them?
For DS:
Another small thing: The CIA expected high-end electronics in Tora-Bora… they had “ecvidence” for that. What did they find after taking it? Some weapons, most of them from the time when the Afghani people fought the soviets…
i bet you believed the CIA then as you believe it now. -
Yanny, congress has to declare war. We are fighting Al-QUaeda, that is who the prisoners are.
If they are not POW, then they must be criminals to be imprisoned, right?
How long cvan you imprison someone before he has a right that his case gets before court?
Keeping people imprisoned without trial is something the not-so-nice governments do…. -
@F_alk:
Falk, detainment of POWs is not torture. No evidence of ill-treatment has been produced. THey are not formally declared POWs you say? Did Al-Quaeda formally declare war?
AS for the points brought up in the AI report, compare the U.S. one to the German one and remember that the U.S. has several fold more people:
I never claimed that Germany is better than the US, i accused the hypocrisy (sp?) of the US though.
Al-Quaeda did not declare war, you did…. where all the Polish, Dutch, soldiers from Belgium and elsewhere taken by Nazi-soldiers not POW, because Germany did not declare war on them?
For DS:
Another small thing: The CIA expected high-end electronics in Tora-Bora… they had “ecvidence” for that. What did they find after taking it? Some weapons, most of them from the time when the Afghani people fought the soviets…
i bet you believed the CIA then as you believe it now.Hypocrisy? So what. There’s hypocrisy in Germany too. :roll:
What was the evidence? So now you’re never going to believe another word the CIA says? That’s a dangerous game you’re playing if we start believing the word of our enemies over that of our own country…
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Yanny, congress has to declare war. We are fighting Al-QUaeda, that is who the prisoners are
Just a hypocritic excuse. Vietnameese prisoners were treated as Prisoners of War. Korean prisoners were treated as Prisoners of war. Should one of our soldiers be captured, we’d damn well want him/her treated as a prisoner of war.
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The CIA - one might as well flip a coin as to whether one would believe anything they have to say. They lie:
- for political reasons
- because they don’t know the truth
- because they only know part of the truth.
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@cystic:
The CIA - one might as well flip a coin as to whether one would believe anything they have to say. They lie:
- for political reasons
- because they don’t know the truth
- because they only know part of the truth.
4.) To protect the national security of this country.
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I hate to interject- well no i don’t-
but I really think you nay sayers are too niave. the bush “doctrine” tends to insinuate that Iraq was basically behind al qida and thusly the 9-11 attacks, which was in response to Saddams out right hatred of us. now unlike many of you, I can rationally see this connection.
some also say that we are only in it for the oil- possibly- who knows.? but our own leftist attitudes towards the environment have left us with little other choice- unless you want to pay $5.00 a gallon for gas. and I gaurantee you- that all of you nonsense spouters would be ready to nuke saddam if that was to happen. you’ re all calling GWB a hypocrite but tell me you wouldn’t change your tune when it cost you five times as much to drive to that flippin job of yours-
I am also a veteran, and I’ve listened to all the reagan and bush bashing lately and it’s almost comical, when I grew up as a boy in germany - under carter- americans were FREQUENTLY targets for terrorist bombings and executions. My own family visited a shopping complex in78-79 the day before terrorists blew it up. now of course we knew these were communist trained and armed insurgents, but it’s amazing how little we could do about it until reagan came in. he restored pride to the military- and thru necessary - yet reckless- spending he broke the soviet union! which until that time I lived in daily fear of. I lived about 100 miles outside of Fulda- and the Fulda gap was their main avenue of entry into the rhine area. you communists have no Idea how well you have it here. you’ve never lived with duck and cover, or had to reherse evacuation plans so you could get back to the US before your dad’s unit had to blow up the country. nothing! war makes us great, war helps us insure that - IF YOU WON’T RESPECT OUR RIGHT TO PERSUE OUR INDIVIDUAL FREEDOMS WE WILL KILL YOU! you are niave to believe the world can co-exist peacefully. in the USA we exist in a state of QUASI peace. there are clashes based on religion, race, or sexual orientation everyday. but no one faction outrightly declares war on the others- why?? in America we are taught to tolerate, other countries are taught merely to hate.And while I agree going after Saddam does look bad, GW does look awfully indecisive, I think it’s a necessary first step. we don’t want to appear to be world tyrants. and if we take on NK and Iraq that’s how it will appear. “DO something the US doesn’t like and they’ll beat you up”.
besides that if we do attack korea, do you really think china won’t intervene again?? and there IS speculation that the big red machine HAS working ICBM’s (does anyone remember what those are??)bush’s delemia is that he allowed this to become an issue. I almost think he’s hoping saddam will except exile to allow a peaceful more western friendly regime to assend.
the problem with war in either case is the one we faced in the desert the first time- if you destroy the only government that region has known, YOU MUST COMMIT MASSIVE AMMOUNTS OF TROOPS there to prevent a civil war until the society can realize democracy. the war won’t kill US troops- the peacekeeping will cost billions of tax dollars and perhaps hundreds of lives.
PS before you all deny being communists - remember that they call themselves socialists too. :D
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