13L G40 Boldfresh vs. Karl7 (Allies +11)

[Karl7]

Now that I’ve thought about it, I think the way the rule should be worded is thus:

“The presence of only enemy subs in a sea zone does create a hostile sea zone, however the moving player may ignore the enemy subs and treat the sea zone as friendly if a friendly surface warship moves into or is present in that sea zone.”

This would cover this scenario as well as situations involving naval retreat into zones containing subs.

[boldfresh]

doesn’t need to be a surface warship, a sub would work right?

[boldfresh]

@Karl7:

Now that I’ve thought about it, I think the way the rule should be worded is thus:

“The presence of only enemy subs in a sea zone does create a hostile sea zone, however the moving player may ignore the enemy subs and treat the sea zone as friendly if a friendly surface warship moves into or is present in that sea zone.”

This would cover this scenario as well as situations involving naval retreat into zones containing subs.

what is the issue about retreating into into a zone containing an enemy sub - i remember something about that and that it was hard to understand.  are you saying you can’t retreat into a zone that contained only an enemy sub(s)?

[Karl7]

Right again!

the rule says “warship” which I think mean any ship but transports…. ugh, I think there is probably some lack of editing here by Avalon Hill.  I think for the rules to hang together it should read surface warship unless someone has a better explanation

as for retreating, this came up in a game I had with Mr. Green.  The consensus was that since subs do not normally create hostile sea zones, you could retreat into them

[boldfresh]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.5

Game History

Round :6

Purchase Units - Italians
            Italians buy 7 infantry and 3 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Italians
            2 armour moved from Bryansk to Rostov
            1 armour, 3 artilleries and 7 infantry moved from Libya to Tobruk
            1 bomber and 2 fighters moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
            1 infantry moved from France to Holland Belgium

Combat - Italians
            Battle in Holland Belgium
                Italians attack with 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 1 infantry
                British defend with 1 infantry
                    Italians roll dice for 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 1 infantry in Holland Belgium, round 1 :  2/4 hits
                    British roll dice for 1 infantry in Holland Belgium, round 1 :  0/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the British lost in Holland Belgium
                Italians win, taking Holland Belgium from British with 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for British: 1 infantry
            Battle in Rostov
                Italians attack with 2 armour
                Russians defend with 1 infantry
                    Italians roll dice for 2 armour in Rostov, round 1 :  2/2 hits
                    Russians roll dice for 1 infantry in Rostov, round 1 :  1/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Russians and 1 armour owned by the Italians lost in Rostov
                Italians win, taking Rostov from Russians with 1 armour remaining. Battle score for attacker is -3
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Italians: 1 armour
            Battle in Tobruk
                Italians attack with 1 armour, 3 artilleries and 7 infantry
                British defend with 1 infantry
                    Italians roll dice for 1 armour, 3 artilleries and 7 infantry in Tobruk, round 1 :  2/11 hits
                    British roll dice for 1 infantry in Tobruk, round 1 :  1/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the British and 1 infantry owned by the Italians lost in Tobruk
                Italians win, taking Tobruk from British with 1 armour, 3 artilleries and 6 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
                Casualties for British: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry

Non Combat Move - Italians
            3 transports moved from 96 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone
            6 infantry moved from Northern Italy to 97 Sea Zone
            6 infantry and 3 transports moved from 97 Sea Zone to 96 Sea Zone
            6 infantry moved from 96 Sea Zone to Tobruk
            2 fighters moved from Holland Belgium to Southern Italy
            1 bomber moved from Holland Belgium to Western Germany
            1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from France to Western Germany
            1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Southern France
            2 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Western Germany
            1 destroyer moved from 96 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone

Place Units - Italians
            7 infantry and 3 mech_infantrys placed in Northern Italy
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            Italians undo move 1.
            7 infantry placed in Northern Italy
            3 mech_infantrys placed in Southern Italy
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Western Germany: 3 infantry
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to France: 4 infantry
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Western Germany: 1 infantry
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Northern Italy: 1 mech_infantry
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to Western Germany: 1 mech_infantry
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Western Germany: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to France: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Western Germany: 2 infantry
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to France: 2 infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Turn Complete - Italians
            Italians collect 23 PUs; end with 23 PUs total
            Objective Italians 2 Roman Empire: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 28 PUs
            Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 33 PUs
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Southern Italy: 3 mech_infantrys
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to Northern Italy: 3 mech_infantrys
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Territory Summary for Italians :

Gibraltar : 1 flag, 1 aaGun, 1 harbour and 1 infantry
    Morocco : 1 flag
    Algeria : 1 flag
    Southern France : 1 flag, 1 factory_minor, 1 harbour and 1 infantry
    France : 1 flag, 2 aaGuns, 1 artillery and 6 infantry
    Tunisia : 1 flag
    Western Germany : 1 flag, 1 bomber and 1 mech_infantry
    Holland Belgium : 1 flag, 1 infantry
    Tobruk : 1 flag, 1 armour, 3 artilleries and 12 infantry
    Northern Italy : 1 flag, 1 factory_major, 7 infantry and 3 mech_infantrys
    Libya : 1 flag, 1 aaGun
    Southern Italy : 1 flag, 1 airfield, 1 factory_minor, 2 fighters and 1 harbour
    Bryansk : 1 flag
    Rostov : 1 flag, 1 armour
    Eastern Poland : 1 flag
    Bessarabia : 1 flag
    Western Ukraine : 1 flag
    96 Sea Zone : 1 flag, 1 battleship, 1 carrier, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer and 3 transports
    93 Sea Zone : 1 flag
    Greece : 1 flag
    97 Sea Zone : 1 flag, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine

Production/PUs Summary :

Germans : 36 / 41
    Russians : 35 / 45
    Japanese : 55 / 64
    Americans : 58 / 78
    Chinese : 4 / 6
    British : 33 / 36
    UK_Pacific : 6 / 6
    Italians : 23 / 33
    ANZAC : 10 / 16
    French : 5 / 0
    Dutch : 0 / 0
    Mongolians : 0 / 0
    Neutral_Axis : 0 / 0
    Neutral_Allies : 0 / 0
    Neutral_True : 18 / 0

Dice Statistics:

Total
            1 was rolled 2 times
            2 was rolled 3 times
            3 was rolled 8 times
            4 was rolled 4 times
            6 was rolled 3 times
        Average roll : 3.300
        Median : 3.000
        Variance : 1.895
        Standard Deviation : 1.376
        Total rolls : 20

Russians Combat
            1 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 1.000
        Median : 1.000
        Variance : ?
        Standard Deviation : ?
        Total rolls : 1

British Combat
            2 was rolled 1 times
            4 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 3.000
        Median : 3.000
        Variance : 2.000
        Standard Deviation : 1.414
        Total rolls : 2

Italians Combat
            1 was rolled 1 times
            2 was rolled 2 times
            3 was rolled 8 times
            4 was rolled 3 times
            6 was rolled 3 times
        Average roll : 3.471
        Median : 3.000
        Variance : 2.688
        Standard Deviation : 1.639
        Total rolls : 17

[boldfresh]

sorry i’m extra edit happy today.

[boldfresh]

@Karl7:

Right again!

the rule says “warship” which I think mean any ship but transports…. ugh, I think there is probably some lack of editing here by Avalon Hill.  I think for the rules to hang together it should read surface warship unless someone has a better explanation

as for retreating, this came up in a game I had with Mr. Green.  The consensus was that since subs do not normally create hostile sea zones, you could retreat into them

i think the term warship is correct.  it means anything other than a transport, so a sub is included.  makes sense if you had a sub with the transport it would be allowed because your attacking sub could defeat the defending sub.  HOWEVER, if there was a scrambling fighter, the transport still would not be allowed to land unless there were SURFACE warships OTHER THAN ACC’s that could defeat the scrambled air.

i think it works.

[boldfresh]

at least you learned something from this game!!

[Karl7]

TripleA Move Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.5

Game History

Round :6

Purchase Units - ANZAC
            ANZAC buy 1 carrier; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - ANZAC
            1 destroyer moved from 62 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 62 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
            2 fighters moved from Queensland to Caroline Islands
            1 infantry moved from New South Wales to Queensland

[Karl7]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.5

Game History

Round :6

Purchase Units - ANZAC
            ANZAC buy 1 carrier; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - ANZAC
            1 destroyer moved from 62 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 62 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
            2 fighters moved from Queensland to Caroline Islands
            1 infantry moved from New South Wales to Queensland

Non Combat Move - ANZAC

Place Units - ANZAC
            1 carrier placed in 62 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - ANZAC
            ANZAC collect 10 PUs; end with 10 PUs total
            Objective ANZAC 2 Control Strategic Islands: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 15 PUs

[boldfresh]

@Karl7:

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.5

Game History

Round :6

Purchase Units - ANZAC
            ANZAC buy 1 carrier; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - ANZAC
            1 destroyer moved from 62 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 62 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
            2 fighters moved from Queensland to Caroline Islands
            1 infantry moved from New South Wales to Queensland

Non Combat Move - ANZAC

Place Units - ANZAC
            1 carrier placed in 62 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - ANZAC
            ANZAC collect 10 PUs; end with 10 PUs total
            Objective ANZAC 2 Control Strategic Islands: ANZAC met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 15 PUs

anzac carrier!  sweet!

[Karl7]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.5

Game History

Round :6

Combat Move - French

Non Combat Move - French
            1 fighter moved from Karelia to Norway
            2 infantry moved from 110 Sea Zone to Normandy Bordeaux
            1 cruiser moved from 106 Sea Zone to 109 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - French

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[Karl7]

Yeah, I think I did learn something.  One can tend to lose sight of the exceptions to the exceptions stuff.

I still think Larry Harris has got it wrong though.  Sub should always be able to choose to defend a sea zone even if only being attacked by planes.  Why can’t subs surface and parade around shooting their measly A&A guns up in the air even if ineffective?

[Karl7]

Although on second thought I guess this would resurrect the dreaded sub blocks from the first pacific 2001 edition……

[Karl7]

Ha!  I guess that must be it… (sorry… just thinking about this too hard)

All these semi coherent rules on subs must be to avoid subs being used as naval blocks… hmm, interesting.

That really was a silly thing I will admit, i.e. the US able to pepper the entire board with subs to gum up the japanese fleet…  :lol:

[boldfresh]

here’s the map.  some INCREDIBLE defense kept the germans from cracking the century mark.

[Karl7]

TripleA Move Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.5

Game History

Round :7

Politics - Russians
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from Western Germany: 3 mech_infantrys
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to Germany: 3 mech_infantrys
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to Western Germany: 3 infantry
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from Germany: 3 infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Combat Move - Russians
            2 infantry moved from Samara to Kazakhstan
            2 fighters moved from Samara to Kazakhstan
            2 armour moved from Samara to Timguska
            2 infantry moved from Novgorod to Baltic States
            1 infantry moved from Novgorod to Belarus
            1 fighter moved from Novgorod to Baltic States
            1 fighter moved from Novgorod to Belarus

[Karl7]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.5

Game History

Round :7

Politics - Russians
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from Western Germany: 3 mech_infantrys
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to Germany: 3 mech_infantrys
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to Western Germany: 3 infantry
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from Germany: 3 infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Combat Move - Russians
            2 infantry moved from Samara to Kazakhstan
            2 fighters moved from Samara to Kazakhstan
            2 armour moved from Samara to Timguska
            2 infantry moved from Novgorod to Baltic States
            1 infantry moved from Novgorod to Belarus
            1 fighter moved from Novgorod to Baltic States
            1 fighter moved from Novgorod to Belarus

Combat - Russians
            Battle in Belarus
                Russians attack with 1 fighter and 1 infantry
                Germans defend with 1 infantry
                retreated to Belarus
                Germans win with 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -3
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Kazakhstan
                Russians attack with 2 fighters and 2 infantry
                Japanese defend with 1 infantry
                Russians win, taking Kazakhstan from Japanese with 2 fighters and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Baltic States
                Russians attack with 1 fighter and 2 infantry
                Germans defend with 1 mech_infantry
                Russians win, taking Baltic States from Germans with 1 fighter and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 1
                Casualties for Germans: 1 mech_infantry
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Timguska
                Russians attack with 2 armour
                Japanese defend with 1 infantry
                Russians win, taking Timguska from Japanese with 1 armour remaining. Battle score for attacker is -3
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Russians: 1 armour

Non Combat Move - Russians
            1 fighter moved from Baltic States to Novgorod
            1 fighter moved from Belarus to Novgorod
            2 armour moved from Karelia to Novgorod
            2 mech_infantrys moved from Karelia to Novgorod
            1 fighter moved from Norway to Normandy Bordeaux
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Norway to Normandy Bordeaux
            1 aaGun, 3 artilleries and 1 infantry moved from Norway to Finland
            2 fighters moved from Kazakhstan to Persia
            2 aaGuns, 1 armour, 2 artilleries and 36 infantry moved from Samara to Kazakhstan

Turn Complete - Russians

[boldfresh]

J7

[Karl7]

TripleA Move Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.5

Game History

Round :7

Politics - Americans

Purchase Units - Americans
            Americans buy 3 armour, 1 artillery, 1 bomber, 1 destroyer, 5 infantry and 3 transports; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Americans
            1 submarine moved from 33 Sea Zone to 34 Sea Zone
            6 fighters moved from 33 Sea Zone to 34 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 26 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
                  Americans take 6 Sea Zone from Japanese
            1 artillery moved from Eastern United States to 101 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Eastern United States to 101 Sea Zone
            1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 101 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from 91 Sea Zone to Gibraltar
            1 artillery moved from 91 Sea Zone to Gibraltar
            1 cruiser moved from 110 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            3 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from United Kingdom to 109 Sea Zone
            3 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 2 transports moved from 109 Sea Zone to 91 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from 91 Sea Zone to Gibraltar
            1 infantry moved from 91 Sea Zone to Gibraltar
            1 mech_infantry moved from 91 Sea Zone to Morocco
            1 infantry moved from 91 Sea Zone to Morocco
            1 mech_infantry moved from Normandy Bordeaux to Southern France
            1 artillery moved from Normandy Bordeaux to Southern France
            1 bomber moved from United Kingdom to Southern France
            1 fighter moved from 110 Sea Zone to Gibraltar