13L G40 Boldfresh vs. Karl7 (Allies +11)

[boldfresh]

i see that you edited the sub out to allow you to make the landing, but the reason you could not make the landing is because the submarine precludes it.  the only way you can land is if you kill the sub and you have no possibility to kill the sub.  so please revise your UK turn.

thanks

[boldfresh]

sure was a nice idea to go for southern italy though…  :wink:

[Karl7]

P 18 of the Europe Rule Book 2nd edition:

Amphibious Assault Sequence
1. Sea combat
2. Battleship and cruiser bombardment
3. Land combat

Step 1. Sea Combat
If there are defending surface warships and/or scrambled
air units, sea combat occurs. If there are only defending
submarines and/or transports, the attacker can choose to
ignore those units or conduct sea combat.

–—

Am I missing something here?  As I read I can ignore the sub. I assumed TrippleA just has it wrong.  Has there been a clarification changing the above?   :oops:

[boldfresh]

i will find the rule for you.  you can only ignore the sub during an amphibious assault if you have a surface ship to accompany it.

[boldfresh]

sorry, what i wrote before was actually misleading because you do NOT have to kill the sub to make the landing, IF you have a surface ship.

[boldfresh]

actually if does not even necessarily need to be a surface ship, i think it can also be a sub.  let me check just to completely confirm.  what i do know for sure is that you can not land with a naked transport if there is a sub in the zone.

[Karl7]

Hmm, rules say sub does not cause sea zone to be hostile…

Check p 8 and 14

[boldfresh]

page 16 of the rulebook under “transports”, paragraph 2:

“A transport that is part of an amphibious assault must end its movement in a friendly sea zone (or one that could become friendly as a result of sea combat) from which it can conduct the assault.  However, a transport is not allowed to offload land units for an amphibious assault in a sea zone containing 1 or more ignored enemy submarines unless at least 1 warship belonging to the attacking power is also present in the sea zone at the end of the Combat Move phase.”

[Karl7]

ok, so there is an exception… very good.

will repost UK

[boldfresh]

so you are correct, the presence of an enemy sub in the zone does not make the zone hostile.  only a scrambled plane or a surface ship makes the zone hostile.  if i only had planes scrambled into the zone, you could have killed them with your air and made the landing.  bottom line though, the sub just being present in the zone precludes the landing alone whether air is scrambled or not, since you have no surface warship in the zone.

if i had a sub AND fighter(s) to scramble and you had a warship, you would have to be able to at least have a chance of killing the sub to make the assault attempt (ie, an acc would not suffice because it has no attack power).  Any ship other than an acc though, would allow you to make the landing if planes are scrambled and beaten and the sub is beaten.

However, if you had an acc and there were no scrambled planes, you COULD ignore the sub and make the landing.  a single scrambled plane though, would preclude the landing with only an acc.

i’m sure i’m poorly explaining this whole scenario!   :lol:

[boldfresh]

@Boldfresh:

so you are correct, the presence of an enemy sub in the zone does not make the zone hostile.  only a scrambled plane or a surface ship makes the zone hostile.  if i only had planes scrambled into the zone, you could have killed them with your air and made the landing.  bottom line though, the sub just being present in the zone precludes the landing alone whether air is scrambled or not, since you have no surface warship in the zone.

if i had a sub AND fighter(s) to scramble and you had a warship, you would have to be able to at least have a chance of killing the sub to make the assault attempt (ie, an acc would not suffice because it has no attack power).  Any ship other than an acc though, would allow you to make the landing if planes are scrambled and beaten and the sub is beaten.

However, if you had an acc and there were no scrambled planes, you COULD ignore the sub and make the landing.  a single scrambled plane though, would preclude the landing with only an acc.

i’m sure i’m poorly explaining this whole scenario!   :lol:

[Karl7]

No, I get it in as much as I suppose it would be silly to say that a lone transports could invade when a sub was on station.  However, according to the logic of the basic rules you can do that.  So Larry H. carved out an exception to the rules, which is fine.

To make it more reasonable, I think they should change the aircraft/sub rule so that subs can be hit by planes only if the sub wishes to contest the sea zone.  Therefore in this scenario to defend against the transport the sub has to fight and try actually kill the transport.  But them’s the rules……

[Karl7]

TripleA Move Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.5

Game History

Round :6

Combat Move - British
            2 infantry moved from United Kingdom to 110 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 110 Sea Zone to Holland Belgium
            1 bomber moved from United Kingdom to Southern France
            3 fighters moved from United Kingdom to Holland Belgium

[Karl7]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.5

Game History

Round :6

Combat Move - British
            2 infantry moved from United Kingdom to 110 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 110 Sea Zone to Holland Belgium
            1 bomber moved from United Kingdom to Southern France
            3 fighters moved from United Kingdom to Holland Belgium

Combat - British
            Battle in Holland Belgium
                British attack with 3 fighters and 2 infantry
                Italians defend with 1 mech_infantry
                British win, taking Holland Belgium from Germans with 3 fighters and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 1
                Casualties for British: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Italians: 1 mech_infantry
            Strategic bombing raid in Southern France
                Bombing raid in Southern France rolls: 3 and causes: 3 damage to unit: factory_minor
                Bombing raid in Southern France causes 3 damage total.

Non Combat Move - British
            1 fighter moved from Holland Belgium to Normandy Bordeaux
            1 fighter moved from Holland Belgium to Normandy Bordeaux
            1 fighter moved from Holland Belgium to United Kingdom
            1 fighter moved from 110 Sea Zone to United Kingdom
            1 aaGun moved from United Kingdom to 109 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from United Kingdom to 109 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 109 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun moved from 110 Sea Zone to Normandy Bordeaux
            1 infantry moved from 110 Sea Zone to Normandy Bordeaux
            1 armour moved from United Kingdom to 110 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from United Kingdom to 110 Sea Zone
            1 armour moved from 110 Sea Zone to Normandy Bordeaux
            1 infantry moved from 110 Sea Zone to Normandy Bordeaux
            2 infantry moved from India to Burma
            1 infantry moved from West India to India
            1 artillery moved from West India to India
            1 mech_infantry moved from Eastern Persia to Northwest Persia
            2 infantry moved from Persia to Northwest Persia
            1 transport moved from 80 Sea Zone to 81 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Southern France to United Kingdom

Place Units - British
            1 factory_minor placed in Persia
            1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Egypt
            1 transport placed in 110 Sea Zone
            3 infantry placed in United Kingdom

Turn Complete - British
            British collect 36 PUs; end with 36 PUs total

[Karl7]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.5

Game History

Round :6

Place Units - UK_Pacific
            2 infantry placed in India

Turn Complete - UK_Pacific
            UK_Pacific collect 6 PUs; end with 6 PUs total
            Some Units in India change ownership: 2 infantry

[Karl7]

Now that I’ve thought about it, I think the way the rule should be worded is thus:

“The presence of only enemy subs in a sea zone does create a hostile sea zone, however the moving player may ignore the enemy subs and treat the sea zone as friendly if a friendly surface warship moves into or is present in that sea zone.”

This would cover this scenario as well as situations involving naval retreat into zones containing subs.

[boldfresh]

doesn’t need to be a surface warship, a sub would work right?

[boldfresh]

@Karl7:

Now that I’ve thought about it, I think the way the rule should be worded is thus:

“The presence of only enemy subs in a sea zone does create a hostile sea zone, however the moving player may ignore the enemy subs and treat the sea zone as friendly if a friendly surface warship moves into or is present in that sea zone.”

This would cover this scenario as well as situations involving naval retreat into zones containing subs.

what is the issue about retreating into into a zone containing an enemy sub - i remember something about that and that it was hard to understand.  are you saying you can’t retreat into a zone that contained only an enemy sub(s)?

[Karl7]

Right again!

the rule says “warship” which I think mean any ship but transports…. ugh, I think there is probably some lack of editing here by Avalon Hill.  I think for the rules to hang together it should read surface warship unless someone has a better explanation

as for retreating, this came up in a game I had with Mr. Green.  The consensus was that since subs do not normally create hostile sea zones, you could retreat into them

[boldfresh]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.5

Game History

Round :6

Purchase Units - Italians
            Italians buy 7 infantry and 3 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Italians
            2 armour moved from Bryansk to Rostov
            1 armour, 3 artilleries and 7 infantry moved from Libya to Tobruk
            1 bomber and 2 fighters moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
            1 infantry moved from France to Holland Belgium

Combat - Italians
            Battle in Holland Belgium
                Italians attack with 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 1 infantry
                British defend with 1 infantry
                    Italians roll dice for 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 1 infantry in Holland Belgium, round 1 :  2/4 hits
                    British roll dice for 1 infantry in Holland Belgium, round 1 :  0/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the British lost in Holland Belgium
                Italians win, taking Holland Belgium from British with 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for British: 1 infantry
            Battle in Rostov
                Italians attack with 2 armour
                Russians defend with 1 infantry
                    Italians roll dice for 2 armour in Rostov, round 1 :  2/2 hits
                    Russians roll dice for 1 infantry in Rostov, round 1 :  1/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Russians and 1 armour owned by the Italians lost in Rostov
                Italians win, taking Rostov from Russians with 1 armour remaining. Battle score for attacker is -3
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Italians: 1 armour
            Battle in Tobruk
                Italians attack with 1 armour, 3 artilleries and 7 infantry
                British defend with 1 infantry
                    Italians roll dice for 1 armour, 3 artilleries and 7 infantry in Tobruk, round 1 :  2/11 hits
                    British roll dice for 1 infantry in Tobruk, round 1 :  1/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the British and 1 infantry owned by the Italians lost in Tobruk
                Italians win, taking Tobruk from British with 1 armour, 3 artilleries and 6 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
                Casualties for British: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry

Non Combat Move - Italians
            3 transports moved from 96 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone
            6 infantry moved from Northern Italy to 97 Sea Zone
            6 infantry and 3 transports moved from 97 Sea Zone to 96 Sea Zone
            6 infantry moved from 96 Sea Zone to Tobruk
            2 fighters moved from Holland Belgium to Southern Italy
            1 bomber moved from Holland Belgium to Western Germany
            1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from France to Western Germany
            1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Southern France
            2 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Western Germany
            1 destroyer moved from 96 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone

Place Units - Italians
            7 infantry and 3 mech_infantrys placed in Northern Italy
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            Italians undo move 1.
            7 infantry placed in Northern Italy
            3 mech_infantrys placed in Southern Italy
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Western Germany: 3 infantry
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to France: 4 infantry
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Western Germany: 1 infantry
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Northern Italy: 1 mech_infantry
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to Western Germany: 1 mech_infantry
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Western Germany: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to France: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Western Germany: 2 infantry
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to France: 2 infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Turn Complete - Italians
            Italians collect 23 PUs; end with 23 PUs total
            Objective Italians 2 Roman Empire: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 28 PUs
            Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 33 PUs
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Italians from Southern Italy: 3 mech_infantrys
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Italians to Northern Italy: 3 mech_infantrys
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Territory Summary for Italians :

Gibraltar : 1 flag, 1 aaGun, 1 harbour and 1 infantry
    Morocco : 1 flag
    Algeria : 1 flag
    Southern France : 1 flag, 1 factory_minor, 1 harbour and 1 infantry
    France : 1 flag, 2 aaGuns, 1 artillery and 6 infantry
    Tunisia : 1 flag
    Western Germany : 1 flag, 1 bomber and 1 mech_infantry
    Holland Belgium : 1 flag, 1 infantry
    Tobruk : 1 flag, 1 armour, 3 artilleries and 12 infantry
    Northern Italy : 1 flag, 1 factory_major, 7 infantry and 3 mech_infantrys
    Libya : 1 flag, 1 aaGun
    Southern Italy : 1 flag, 1 airfield, 1 factory_minor, 2 fighters and 1 harbour
    Bryansk : 1 flag
    Rostov : 1 flag, 1 armour
    Eastern Poland : 1 flag
    Bessarabia : 1 flag
    Western Ukraine : 1 flag
    96 Sea Zone : 1 flag, 1 battleship, 1 carrier, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer and 3 transports
    93 Sea Zone : 1 flag
    Greece : 1 flag
    97 Sea Zone : 1 flag, 1 destroyer and 1 submarine

Production/PUs Summary :

Germans : 36 / 41
    Russians : 35 / 45
    Japanese : 55 / 64
    Americans : 58 / 78
    Chinese : 4 / 6
    British : 33 / 36
    UK_Pacific : 6 / 6
    Italians : 23 / 33
    ANZAC : 10 / 16
    French : 5 / 0
    Dutch : 0 / 0
    Mongolians : 0 / 0
    Neutral_Axis : 0 / 0
    Neutral_Allies : 0 / 0
    Neutral_True : 18 / 0

Dice Statistics:

Total
            1 was rolled 2 times
            2 was rolled 3 times
            3 was rolled 8 times
            4 was rolled 4 times
            6 was rolled 3 times
        Average roll : 3.300
        Median : 3.000
        Variance : 1.895
        Standard Deviation : 1.376
        Total rolls : 20

Russians Combat
            1 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 1.000
        Median : 1.000
        Variance : ?
        Standard Deviation : ?
        Total rolls : 1

British Combat
            2 was rolled 1 times
            4 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 3.000
        Median : 3.000
        Variance : 2.000
        Standard Deviation : 1.414
        Total rolls : 2

Italians Combat
            1 was rolled 1 times
            2 was rolled 2 times
            3 was rolled 8 times
            4 was rolled 3 times
            6 was rolled 3 times
        Average roll : 3.471
        Median : 3.000
        Variance : 2.688
        Standard Deviation : 1.639
        Total rolls : 17