Dagobah is a slog in many ways, but I enjoy the mysticism attached to Yoda’s teaching of the force, culminating in the chill-inducing X-wing scene. By contrast, almost every reference to the force in TFA feels contrived and weak, with too much emphasis on “light side” and “dark side” for convenient storytelling purposes.
Dagobah is a slog in many ways, but I enjoy the mysticism attached to Yoda’s teaching of the force, culminating in the chill-inducing X-wing scene. By contrast, almost every reference to the force in TFA feels contrived and weak, with too much emphasis on “light side” and “dark side” for convenient storytelling purposes.
I suppose that it could have been worse: the new movie might have referred to the “right side” and “wrong side” of the Force. I cringe at the thought.
the hate rushes through the pores of all these 40+ year old fanboys. They are very susceptible to the dark side….
Hm, I am happy for my friends who like the movie, or find it entertaining. No need to call them xy fanboys myself because of that. Or can you not accept that people dont like what you like?
And for many people who are not happy about the new movie, I daresay its not because they revere IV, V or VI so much, but are likely to be a lot through the EU (expanded universe) and have more background, and therefore also more expectations and questions (not that all of EU has been good, the opposite really with some things imho, but much was; and it all was canon until recently, so no one could dismiss it, even if just going by the movies is certainly enough to love Star Wars). Now no way a movie can (or, nowadays, want to) fill those gaps, I appreciate that. Grudgingly. But I cant just blend out the possibilities and love it because its Star Wars and the whole earthball says “enjoy”. Compared to the gigantic promotion machinery, media coverage and people who like the movie, the few people Gamerman calls hateful 40+ fanboys should be easy to stomach. I think its the dark side to attack them personally as hateful while those people criticise the movie, not its fans; there might be some who condescend, sure, but most dont, I dont). I think when people with other movies or series call for more or point out whats not so good (everyone does, come on), they get a lot less fire for that. Because Star Wars creates passion (I see that in every game store nowadays when the movie is discussed), and that again ties both groups together, both feel subjectively and ardently for it in some way.
In any case, I feel that with this unparalleled merchandising and money making of every aspect, in every supermarket, they owe more substance. I know it likely wont happen, but there is hope still. It really cant be otherwise.
alexgreat, my personal devil’s advocate
Man, you misunderstand me on a regular basis :lol: Something’s lost in the culture differences
@alexgreat:
But I cant just blend out the possibilities and love it because its Star Wars and the whole earthball says “enjoy”.
This is an amazing quote! I love it. I am completely serious.
Alex - not speaking English endows you with a uniquely expressive dialect. I for one appreciate your genius.
@alexgreat:
In any case, I feel that with this unparalleled merchandising and money making of every aspect, in every supermarket, they owe more substance. I know it likely wont happen, but there is hope still. It really cant be otherwise.
This is something that has been on my mind also. I don’t know if it really is different this time or if I was simply too young back in 2003-2005 to notice the marketing for the prequel trilogy. The merchandising for Force Awakens has been utterly insane. It was/is everywhere. Every single Christmas commercial seemed to have either a callout to Star Wars or people using Star Wars toys/clothes as subject props. Star Wars was in car commercials, jewelry ads, Subway, Campbell’s soup… it was literally everywhere. I could no longer tell what advertising was being paid for and who was advertising Star Wars merchandise of their own accord because everyone else was doing it and they thought it was a selling point.
I should not be surprised, considering the history of Star Wars merchandising, but this just felt ridiculous. Part of that was the feeling of “why are they trying so hard?” It’s not like people don’t know Star Wars is coming out. Does all that constant advertising browbeat even non-Star Wars fans into feeling like they have to see the movie to stay culturally relevant? Needless to say, I am not a fan of the over-the-top advertising.
I should not be surprised, considering the history of Star Wars merchandising, but this just felt ridiculous. Part of that was the feeling of “why are they trying so hard?”
Perhaps because the movies themselves have come to be seen by the studios as simply giant-scale commercials for the merchandise and the marketing rights, which are no longer just (to quote the Mel Brooks films Spaceballs) spin-off products “where the real money from the movie is made” but rather are now (arguably) the main products for which the films simply provide the set-up. Case in point: when I went to see The Force Awakens, the theatre – knowing it had a captive audience, and which had probably been paid handsomely by advertisers – showed twice as many pre-movie commercials as it normally does. Twelve commercials, in fact, not counting the movie preview trailers. The film’s advertised start time was 2:30, but it actually only got under way at 2:55, after almost half-an-hour of ads and trailers. Watching commercials for tree on TV is bad enough; paying to watch commercials in a theatre is even worse; and paying to watch twice as many commercials as usual is positively infuriating.
An early anticipation of the Mel Brooks joke above (which I found funny at the time, but which I found less funny as I realized that it had turned into reality) is a joke that was used on the 1960s spy spoof TV series Get Smart, which was finally released on DVD a couple of years ago. The good guys, Max and Agent 99, are in a Chinese laundry confronting the two bad guys, The Claw and his huge, muscular sidekick Bobo (who is as strong as an ox and just about as dumb). Max states that he has figured out that The Claw is using the laundry as a front from which he operates a spy ring. Bobo comments, “Actually, the spy ring is the front. The real money is in the laundry.” The Claw leans forward and says to Max in a low voice, “The less he knows, the better.” Given saturation marketing campaign we’ve seen around The Force Awakes, however, I’ve started thinking that maybe Bobo was right all along.
Here is a Star Wars question: If you were Mace Windu and discovered that Palpatine was the Sith Lord, and had your choice of any three Clone War era Jedi at your side for the confrontation, who would you choose?
None. The fact that the three Jedi who confronted Palpatine at Mace Windu’s side were quickly killed isn’t a problem because Windu subsequently defeated Palpatine in single combat – and not just once, but twice. The real problem was that Windu didn’t kill Palpatine immediately after defeating him on each occasion. One can perhaps make allowances for the first time, given that Windu defeated him pretty handily in a straightforward lightsaber duel – even if you consider the fact that Palpatine was skillful enough at swordfighting to kill three Jedi in a few seconds in a one-against-four fight. But in the second confrontation between them, Windu barely survived Palpatine’s force-lightning attack (and doesn’t even seem to have anticipated that Palpatine might be able to attack him in this way)…so when he finally escaped by the barest of margins and once again got an opportunity to dispose of such an incredibly dangerous enemy, the sensible thing would have been to take no chances and kill him at once. Instead, Windu started making long-winded editorial comments that were transparently meant (from a scriptwriting point of view) to give Anakin the time and the motivation to turn against Windu and thus provide Palpatine with a chance to gleefully catapult him to his death.
I really like that answer
I do have one question - wasn’t Windu really worried about what would happen if he had privately killed Palpatine with pretty much no witnesses? Didn’t everything he believed in, scream against an execution like that? Didn’t he hope for a trial?
(I don’t remember what he was saying while he had Palpatine on his back gasping for air)
Veritas, my kids and I LOVED that SNL clip!!!
As Harry Plinkett wondered aloud in his Attack of the Clones review, why didn’t the Jedi Council request blood tests of senators if they were afraid a Sith was pulling strings there?
I don’t think they were, that’s why. Yes they felt the Sith were returning, but didn’t necessarily suspect senators.
Wasn’t one of Sidious’ special force powers of the dark side some kind of cloaking and mind control? I think a bigger Star Wars fan than me told me that years ago…. I’ll let you guys tell me where I’m wrong
I really like that answer
I do have one question - wasn’t Windu really worried about what would happen if he had privately killed Palpatine with pretty much no witnesses? Didn’t everything he believed in, scream against an execution like that? Didn’t he hope for a trial?Â
(I don’t remember what he was saying while he had Palpatine on his back gasping for air)
The answer I’d give would be in three parts. First, there actually was a witness present (Anakin). Second, towards the tail end of his foolishly long editorial comments, Windu himself states that he’s comes to the conclusion that Palpatine is too dangerous to be left alive (a conclusion which, frankly, he should have reached a lot sooner). Third, I seriously doubt that the Jedi Code of Fair Fighting (or whatever they use) says anything along the lines of: “If, in the course of mortal combat with a dangerous enemy who is clearly trying to kill him and who is even using an illegitimate weapon like force lighting against him, a Jedi who is fighting for his life manages to overpower his adversary while scrupulously respecting the rules of fair play, he shall immediately cease combat rather than killing the said adversary.” I don’t think the Jedi would have lasted very long as the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, let alone for a thousand generations, under those rules of engagements.
I don’t think they were, that’s why. Yes they felt the Sith were returning, but didn’t necessarily suspect senators.
Wasn’t one of Sidious’ special force powers of the dark side some kind of cloaking and mind control? I think a bigger Star Wars fan than me told me that years ago…. I’ll let you guys tell me where I’m wrong
Count Dooku informs Obi-Wan in “Attack of Clones” that the Sith Lord has control of the Senate, but I guess Obi-Wan presumed he was being deceived.
If you haven’t yet seen the “Clone Wars” show on Netflix (set b/w the events of Eps 2 and 3), it has its moments. Ironically, George Lucas’ vision for the prequels (of fleshed-out, morally ambiguous characters) may have been best realized in this animated format.
Particularly the Season 5 arc involving Darth Maul and Deathwatch (SO5E01, S05E14-16) and the Season 6 arc involving Order 66 (S06E01-04) are worth checking out.
Thanks for the answer, Marc, but I didn’t like it so much……
Sure, volatile untrustworthy Anakin was a witness. Big help.
Yes Windu said he’s too dangerous to be left alive, but his actions showed that he didn’t really believe what he was saying.
Jedi Code of fair fighting? I, with all due respect, think that point is kind of ridiculous. This wasn’t just any situation. It was the long time leader of the known universe. You can’t just kill him with only Anakin Skywalker, who is also a long time Jedi, as the only witness. (Although it came to the point where he had to, in self defense)
I think Windu was torn apart and had a hard time thinking the whole time. His world was rocked. And he was trying to kill him toward the end, he had finally made up his mind, when he was betrayed by Anakin. And I HATE the blind trust he gave Anakin there despite all the reasons he had to NOT trust him, and I HATE that Yoda is so impotent in all the first 3 episodes, with all the reverence he receives. Can we agree that if you think very much, a lot of stuff falls apart?
How could Yoda EVER prevent the Sith from taking over when he seems to be totally unable to fight offensively?? How could Luke ever prevail without going into crazy attack mode? Midiclorians? Force? You’ve got to be kidding me. I enjoy Star Wars a lot when I just go with it and don’t think too hard, because it’s all completely ridiculous when you think about it. Everyone knows English all over the galaxies? You can breathe air on any planet without aid, including Mustafar? lol the list could go on and on
As far as not killing Sidious fast enough - um, that works both ways. How about the execution in Episode II? Doesn’t Dooku know the full abilities of Obi-Wan and company? He should. How does that seriously fail? Obviously, the answer to all of these questions is, the writer of fiction has total control and makes whatever happen they want to happen to try and tell a good story. Why do the bad guys always give a big speech and not just kill the good guy? Makes me want to stop watching movies :lol:
As far as not killing Sidious fast enough - um, that works both ways. How about the execution in Episode II? Doesn’t Dooku know the full abilities of Obi-Wan and company? He should. How does that seriously fail? Obviously, the answer to all of these questions is, the writer of fiction has total control and makes whatever happen they want to happen to try and tell a good story. Why do the bad guys always give a big speech and not just kill the good guy? Makes me want to stop watching movies :lol:
In the movie it seems like Sidious is actually in control of the situation and is using it to force Skywalker to betray the Jedi and become his apprentice. This would be consistent with Sidious being powerful enough to deceive Yoda and Windu for years.
On the other hand Sidious seems to have been injured during the confrontation with Windu. It’s not clear whether Sidious’ appearance had already been twisted by the dark side prior to the the battle with Windu (meaning his appearance as Palpatine was artifice) or if the injuries from the battle with Windu disfigured him.
Can we agree that if you think very much, a lot of stuff falls apart?
Certainly, and movies are (or can be) particularly vulnerable to over-analysis. I admit that I’m prone to over-analyzing, but I’m also perfectly capable of suspending disbelief and overlooking plot holes in a film. Case in point: I’ve seen about a dozen times the movie Earth vs. the Flying Saucers and I always find it fun to watch even though it has more ridiculous elements per minute than just about any other non-comedy film I’ve ever seen. On the other hand, I get highly annoyed when a movie I’m watching gives me the impression that the director and the screenwriter want their film to be taken seriously but don’t seem to feel that they have to put much effort into taking their audience seriously.
What fundamentally disappointed me about the Windu / Palpatine confrontation wasn’t the picky stuff I was criticizing in my above posts. It was the fact that the scene handled such a pivotal moment of the whole Star Wars saga – the moment when Anakin falls – in a way that was (in my opinion) so clumsy and so transparently contrived. It was a scene that deserved the highest level of writing of any scene in any Star Wars film, a scene that deserved to be both emotionally wrenching and utterly convincing…but instead of coming across as a first-rate moment of epic tragedy, in my opinion (and this is just my opinion) it came across as basically a connect-the-dots contrivance that checks off a plot point in Anakin Skywalker’s character arc. I was disappointed – but, as I’ve said, that’s just how I personally reacted to that scene, and I think it’s perfectly valid for other audience members to have a different opinion of that scene. My answer to your question was meant only to explain as adequately as possible my own reaction to the scene, not to be dismissive of anyone else’s alternate viewpoints.
In the movie it seems like Sidious is actually in control of the situation and is using it to force Skywalker to betray the Jedi and become his apprentice. This would be consistent with Sidious being powerful enough to deceive Yoda and Windu for years.
On the other hand Sidious seems to have been injured during the confrontation with Windu. It’s not clear whether Sidious’ appearance had already been twisted by the dark side prior to the the battle with Windu (meaning his appearance as Palpatine was artifice) or if the injuries from the battle with Windu disfigured him.
I like this post
