XDAP03 Norse elite vs. TeamBoldDutch

[boldfresh]

i can see it either way - perhaps it is better to just finish with the map we began with, rather than implement this change now.  since we have already began the game under the assumptions of this map that is probably best.  but the sea zone is clearly meant to be drawn in such a way as to give z115 more distance from german territories.

[Ghostglider]

I have just looked at battlemap, which is used at daak.de and there you are right.
Sorry about the mistake.

Please cancel the attack on z115 and add the CRU again. Please land the T.BMB in Poland. Then I can clear z115 next turn instead.

[Ghostglider]

I have attached the new map after G6. Please go ahead with your allied moves.

06 - Germany - Final.tsvg

[boldfresh]

Just waiting for Dutch to weigh in on z115
resolution, since the attach was both legal
for the strat bombers but illegal for the
tac bomber.  i heard from him last night
as he was flying across the country and
he said he would be able to look at the map
this morning and give me his thoughts.

also, we did NOT EXPECT a german purchase of 5
transports!!  so we need to confer a bit about
coordination before i move with russia.  :-)

thanks, hopefully we can keep this one moving
today!

[boldfresh]

i’m leaning toward recommending we keep the result as it was rolled since the 2 strat bombers could reach the cruiser, but i want dutch’s thoughts.

[Ghostglider]

The result can not be kept after an illegal battle…
Two options in my mind:
1. Battle is allowed to be cancelled - but units can not participate in other battles this turn.
2. Battle must be made with units that can reach = reroll 2 S.bmb vs. 1 cru

I think option 1 is most fair so therefore I made the adjustments to the map and attached the new map.

[boldfresh]

Yes the tac was illegally in the battle (although according to the map we were using it was not).  But we cannot know for sure (even you may not know) whether you would have attacked with 2 s.bom or not.  I do not think it is good practice that if a battle occurs where 1 unit was there illegally, the entire battle is canceled regardless of result of the battle.  I would lean more toward the belief that if a battle occurs with an illegal unit(s), the dice from that unit(s) are canceled and the battle stands as otherwise rolled.  In this case, it makes the difference between losing a tac or losing a s.bom.  Of course depending on the number of illegal units and the circumstances of the battle, good sportmanship and reason should prevail.

I guess my suggestion is that it is most fair to either:
1.  say the 2 s.bom attacked the cruiser and both sides hit or
2.  leave the battle as it was just enforcing the correct sea zones from now on

I am not hugely opposed to your suggestion that the battle is simply canceled but I am concerned about the precedence that may set.  I would prefer to encourage personal responsibility for knowing the rules of the game - hope that makes sense.

[dutchmand]

Sorry for the absence mates.

I am not going to make a big deal out of something caused my a map error. But, in any event the battle should not be re-rolled. The dice were already thrown for the same units that were in the battle. The fact that the cruiser hit can’t be undone because one of the units of the attacker couldn’t make it. Why would that cause the cruiser to have to re-roll?

However its resolved the cruiser already rolled. The strat bombers too for that matter.

I do believe the attack would have been made without the tac… you guys just strafed tunisia and greece, so you were clearly open to losing a bomber…

[Bjergmose]

If we look at the rules at daak.de they say it has to be rerolled or cancelled.

“6.3 Combat declaration errors
Battles that contain combat declaration errors are invalid and have to be repeated or cancelled. This will only be applied to battles that contain combat declaration errors. The results of battles that were correctly declared will stand.
Exception: If the results of some or all of the correct battles have any effect on the decision of the attacker to repeat incorrect battles, then the defender can ask for a reroll of these (correct) battles. If the players can’t agree, the minister of defense will decide.”

That seems like the best solution. We shouldn´t apply our own set of rules even if the cruiser did hit.
We can´t assume that the attack would´ve been made anyways. The only thing we can do is to cancel or reroll.
And ghostglider opted to cancel.

Now on with the show….I´ve got places to be, australians to kill  :|

[boldfresh]

I don’t really agree with the daak rules on this issue.  However, I am willing to accept them and continue.

To use an extreme example to illustrate a point, say I were to attack a large fleet with OVERWHELMING odds, but one of the fighters I took to the battle was not legal.  And let’s say, for sake of this illustration, that the fleet defended incredibly and wiped out my entire attacking force.  Using this daak rule, the defender would be treated terribly unfairly since he just got the 1 in 1000 result of an incredible defense, only to have it canceled because of the opponent’s error of bringing an illegal aircraft, when the opponent would have done the battle even without the additional fighter.  At the very least, I think the minister of defense should be allowed to rule on more than just the “exception” clause, because in an example such as this, that rule clearly gives a wrong ruling.

[Bjergmose]

I agree. But the rules should be made from any (normal) situation, not the 1 in a million  :-D

If the player making the wrong move, then is killed one-in-a-million-style, is the one demanding rerolls ´cos he took an xtra fighter then I would be suspicious too.  :-o

[boldfresh]

Ok, I think we are good to proceed, but unfortunately, I am probably too busy today to put my master plan together (the plan to CRUSH germany, that is).  In addition, that dutch guy is also on holiday and so our nefarious coordination efforts have not been able to occur.

May post today, but don’t plan on it.  Should be able to post on Monday if I hear from that dutch guy.

[boldfresh]

looks like i may have time to post!  let’s see.

[boldfresh]

Need to confirm a rules issue related to combat/noncombat/transporting before I proceed with russia.  I think tripleA is handling something incorrectly and want to clear it up before we proceed.  I have sent a message to the rules experts.

[Ghostglider]

You can go ahead with Anzac/france maybe?

[boldfresh]

Here is the official anzac/france map.

anzac bought inf, mech, aa

[boldfresh]

There will be a morning r6 i believe.

[boldfresh]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 Alpha 3 Final, version: 3.3

Game History

Round :6

Purchase Units - Russians
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Russians to 115 Sea Zone: 1 cruiser
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to Poland: 1 tactical_bomber
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by ANZAC from New South Wales: 1 artillery
            EDIT: Adding units owned by ANZAC to New South Wales: 1 mech_infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            Russians buy 1 airfield, 3 armour, 1 factory_minor and 7 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Russians
            2 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Romania
            1 fighter moved from Eastern Poland to Baltic States
            2 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Baltic States
            1 fighter moved from Eastern Poland to Romania
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Russia to Romania
            2 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Slovakia Hungary
            1 bomber moved from Eastern Poland to Slovakia Hungary
            1 infantry moved from Kansu to Suiyuyan
                  Chinese take Suiyuyan from Japanese
            3 armour and 2 mech_infantrys moved from Iraq to Syria
                  Russians take Syria from Italians
            3 armour and 2 mech_infantrys moved from Syria to Trans-Jordan
            2 armour moved from Northwest Persia to Trans-Jordan
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Eastern Poland to Baltic States
            1 infantry moved from Eastern Poland to Romania

Combat - Russians
            Battle in Slovakia Hungary
                Russians attack with 1 bomber and 2 infantry
                Germans defend with 1 infantry
                    Russians roll dice for 1 bomber and 2 infantry in Slovakia Hungary, round 1 :  0/3 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Slovakia Hungary, round 1 :  1/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Slovakia Hungary
                    Russians roll dice for 1 bomber and 1 infantry in Slovakia Hungary, round 2 :  1/2 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Slovakia Hungary, round 2 :  0/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Slovakia Hungary
                Russians win, taking Slovakia Hungary from Germans with 1 bomber and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
                Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Romania
                Russians attack with 2 fighters, 3 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
                Italians defend with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                    Russians roll dice for 2 fighters, 3 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in Romania, round 1 :  3/6 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 artillery and 1 infantry in Romania, round 1 :  0/2 hits
                    1 artillery owned by the Italians and 1 infantry owned by the Italians lost in Romania
                Russians win, taking Romania from Germans with 2 fighters, 3 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
                Casualties for Italians: 1 artillery and 1 infantry
            Battle in Trans-Jordan
                Russians attack with 5 armour and 2 mech_infantrys
                Italians defend with 1 infantry
                    Russians roll dice for 5 armour and 2 mech_infantrys in Trans-Jordan, round 1 :  1/7 hits
                    Italians roll dice for 1 infantry in Trans-Jordan, round 1 :  1/1 hits
                    1 mech_infantry owned by the Russians and 1 infantry owned by the Italians lost in Trans-Jordan
                Russians win, taking Trans-Jordan from Italians with 5 armour and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -1
                Casualties for Russians: 1 mech_infantry
                Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Baltic States
                Russians attack with 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
                Germans defend with 1 infantry
                    Russians roll dice for 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber in Baltic States, round 1 :  2/4 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Baltic States, round 1 :  0/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Baltic States
                Russians win, taking Baltic States from Germans with 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry
            Trigger Russians Conquer Japanese Territory By Mongolia: Setting switch to false for conditionAttachment_Mongolia_May_Change_To_Russians_Control_Switch attached to Russians

Non Combat Move - Russians
            1 fighter moved from Baltic States to Norway
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Baltic States to Norway
            4 mech_infantrys moved from Novgorod to Eastern Poland
            2 infantry moved from Western Ukraine to Eastern Poland
            1 armour and 2 mech_infantrys moved from Ukraine to Eastern Poland
            2 fighters and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Romania to Eastern Poland
            1 bomber moved from Slovakia Hungary to Norway
            3 armour moved from Volgograd to Bryansk
            3 infantry moved from Northwest Persia to Iraq
            2 aaGuns and 7 infantry moved from Korea to Amur
            5 infantry moved from Kansu to Suiyuyan
            1 cruiser moved from 115 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 119 Sea Zone to 112 Sea Zone

Place Units - Russians
            1 airfield and 1 factory_minor placed in Norway
            3 armour placed in Novgorod
            3 mech_infantrys placed in Ukraine
            3 mech_infantrys placed in Volgograd
            1 mech_infantry placed in Russia

Turn Complete - Russians
            Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 3
                Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 6 Sea Zone. Rolls: 3,4,2
            Russians collect 54 PUs (3 lost to blockades); end with 54 PUs total
            Objective Russians 2 Spread Of Communism: Russians met a national objective for an additional 15 PUs; end with 69 PUs

Territory Summary for Russians :

Korea : 1 flag
    Suiyuyan : 1 flag, 6 infantry
    Amur : 1 flag, 2 aaGuns and 7 infantry
    Trans-Jordan : 1 flag, 5 armour and 1 mech_infantry
    Syria : 1 flag
    Slovakia Hungary : 1 flag, 1 infantry
    Romania : 1 flag, 3 infantry
    Norway : 1 flag, 1 airfield, 2 armour, 1 bomber, 1 factory_minor, 1 fighter, 2 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber
    Baltic States : 1 flag, 2 infantry
    Bryansk : 1 flag, 3 armour
    Eastern Poland : 1 flag, 4 aaGuns, 7 armour, 2 artilleries, 2 fighters, 16 infantry, 13 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber
    Russia : 1 flag, 1 airfield, 1 factory_major and 1 mech_infantry
    Ukraine : 1 flag, 1 factory_minor and 3 mech_infantrys
    Volgograd : 1 flag, 1 factory_minor and 3 mech_infantrys
    Novgorod : 1 flag, 1 airfield, 3 armour, 1 factory_minor and 1 harbour
    112 Sea Zone : 1 flag, 1 submarine
    113 Sea Zone : 1 flag, 1 cruiser
    Iraq : 1 flag, 3 infantry
    Northwest Persia : 1 flag
    Persia : 1 flag
    115 Sea Zone : 1 flag, 1 submarine
    Finland : 1 flag

Production/PUs Summary :

Germans : 37 / 41
    Russians : 57 / 69
    Japanese : 50 / 58
    Americans : 55 / 71
    Chinese : 10 / 15
    British : 11 / 0
    UK_Pacific : 10 / 13
    Italians : 24 / 14
    ANZAC : 9 / 23
    French : 2 / 0
    Dutch : 0 / 0
    Mongolians : 0 / 0
    Neutral_Axis : 0 / 0
    Neutral_Allies : 0 / 0
    Neutral_True : 18 / 0

Dice Statistics:

Total
            1 was rolled 3 times
            2 was rolled 6 times
            3 was rolled 5 times
            4 was rolled 5 times
            5 was rolled 4 times
            6 was rolled 8 times
        Average roll : 3.806
        Median : 4.000
        Variance : 0.500
        Standard Deviation : 0.707
        Total rolls : 31

Null / Other
            2 was rolled 1 times
            3 was rolled 1 times
            4 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 3.000
        Median : 3.000
        Variance : 1.500
        Standard Deviation : 1.225
        Total rolls : 3

Germans Combat
            1 was rolled 1 times
            3 was rolled 1 times
            4 was rolled 1 times
            5 was rolled 1 times
            6 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 3.800
        Median : 4.000
        Variance : 1.250
        Standard Deviation : 1.118
        Total rolls : 5

Russians Combat
            1 was rolled 2 times
            2 was rolled 4 times
            3 was rolled 3 times
            4 was rolled 3 times
            5 was rolled 3 times
            6 was rolled 7 times
        Average roll : 4.000
        Median : 4.000
        Variance : 0.857
        Standard Deviation : 0.926
        Total rolls : 22

Italians Combat
            2 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 2.000
        Median : 2.000
        Variance : ?
        Standard Deviation : ?
        Total rolls : 1

[boldfresh]

can japan get sydney this go around?  :?  there is one very stubborn american pilot down there, so i doubt it.

aa gunners to their stations!

[Bjergmose]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 Alpha 3 Final, version: 3.3

Game History

Round :6

Purchase Units - Japanese
            Japanese buy 1 armour, 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 fighter and 6 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Japanese
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Malaya to 42 Sea Zone
            1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 17 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Iwo Jima to 17 Sea Zone
            1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 17 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
            1 artillery moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 6 Sea Zone to Korea
            2 infantry moved from Kwangtung to Kwangsi
            1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Northern Territory to New South Wales
                  Japanese take South Australia from ANZAC
            2 infantry moved from Northern Territory to 55 Sea Zone
            2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 55 Sea Zone to 62 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 62 Sea Zone to New South Wales
            2 fighters and 2 tactical_bombers moved from 55 Sea Zone to New South Wales
            1 battleship moved from 54 Sea Zone to 62 Sea Zone
            1 armour and 1 infantry moved from Kwangtung to 20 Sea Zone
            1 armour, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 20 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone
            1 armour and 1 infantry moved from 37 Sea Zone to Siam
            1 infantry moved from Kwangtung to 20 Sea Zone
            1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 20 Sea Zone to 36 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from 36 Sea Zone to French Indo China
            1 bomber moved from Kwangtung to Siam
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Kiangsu to Kwangsi
            1 armour moved from Kiangsu to Hunan
            1 infantry moved from Kwangtung to Kwangsi
            1 bomber moved from Kwangtung to Hunan
            1 infantry moved from Alaska to British Columbia
            1 armour moved from Alaska to Yukon Territory
                  Japanese take Yukon Territory from British
            1 armour moved from Yukon Territory to Alaska

Combat - Japanese
            Battle in Hunan
                Japanese attack with 1 armour and 1 bomber
                Chinese defend with 1 infantry
                Japanese win, taking Hunan from Chinese with 1 armour and 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Chinese: 1 infantry
            Battle in Siam
                Japanese attack with 1 armour, 1 bomber and 1 infantry
                British defend with 1 armour
                Japanese win, taking Siam from UK_Pacific with 1 armour, 1 bomber and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
                Casualties for British: 1 armour
            Battle in 42 Sea Zone
                Japanese attack with 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber
                British defend with 1 cruiser
                Japanese win with 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 12
                Casualties for British: 1 cruiser
            Battle in New South Wales
                Japanese attack with 1 armour, 2 fighters, 2 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 2 tactical_bombers
                ANZAC defend with 1 aaGun, 1 armour, 1 factory_minor, 3 fighters, 1 harbour, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry; Americans defend with 1 fighter
                Japanese captures 23PUs while taking ANZAC capital
                Japanese win, taking New South Wales from ANZAC with 1 armour, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 27
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 fighter, 2 infantry, 1 mech_infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
                Casualties for ANZAC: 1 aaGun, 1 armour, 3 fighters, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
                Casualties for Americans: 1 fighter
            Battle in British Columbia
                Japanese attack with 1 infantry
                Americans defend with 1 aaGun
                Japanese win, taking British Columbia from British with 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 5
                Casualties for Americans: 1 aaGun
            Battle in Korea
            Battle in Kwangsi
                Japanese attack with 1 fighter, 3 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
                Chinese defend with 2 infantry
                Japanese win, taking Korea from Russians, taking Kwangsi from Chinese with 1 fighter, 2 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
                Casualties for Chinese: 2 infantry
            Battle in French Indo China
            Trigger Japanese Land In North America: Setting switch to true for conditionAttachment_Axis_Land_In_North_America_Switch attached to Germans

Non Combat Move - Japanese
            1 carrier moved from 55 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
            1 transport moved from 55 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
            2 fighters moved from Kwangtung to 6 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from Japan to 6 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 6 Sea Zone to 16 Sea Zone
            1 submarine moved from 6 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
            1 carrier moved from 55 Sea Zone to 61 Sea Zone
            1 fighter moved from 42 Sea Zone to 61 Sea Zone
            1 carrier moved from 54 Sea Zone to 62 Sea Zone
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from New South Wales to 62 Sea Zone
            1 tactical_bomber moved from 42 Sea Zone to 35 Sea Zone
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Kwangsi to Kwangtung
            1 bomber moved from Siam to Kwangtung
            2 armour moved from Kiangsu to Kwangtung
            1 bomber moved from Hunan to Kwangtung

Place Units - Japanese
            1 carrier, 1 destroyer and 1 fighter placed in 6 Sea Zone
            1 armour placed in Japan
            3 infantry placed in Kiangsu
            3 infantry placed in Kwangtung

Turn Complete - Japanese
            Japanese collect 62 PUs; end with 85 PUs total
            Objective Japanese 3 Control Honolulu Or Sydney Or Calcutta Or Western United States: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 90 PUs
            Objective Japanese 4 Control Dutch East Indies: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 95 PUs