XDAP03 Norse elite vs. TeamBoldDutch

[boldfresh]

@Cow:

Man I just came here because someone said this game was funny.

and Cow, as funny as I find your comments to be, I cannot speak for the others.  please keep them to yourself while the game is active.

thanks

[Ghostglider]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 Alpha 3 Final, version: 3.3

Game History

Round :6

Politics - Germans
            Germans takes Political Action: Political Action Germans To War With Chinese
                Germans succeeds on action: Political Action Germans To War With Chinese: Changing Relationship for Germans and Chinese from Neutrality to War

Purchase Units - Germans
            Germans buy 1 destroyer, 2 infantry and 5 transports; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Germans
            1 armour moved from Anglo Egyptian Sudan to French Central Africa
                  Germans take French Central Africa from French
            2 bombers moved from Southern Italy to Tunisia
            2 mech_infantrys moved from Slovakia Hungary to Bulgaria
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Slovakia Hungary to 115 Sea Zone
            1 mech_infantry moved from Greater Southern Germany to Bulgaria
            1 infantry moved from Poland to Baltic States
                  Germans take Baltic States from Russians
            1 fighter moved from Slovakia Hungary to Bulgaria
            1 tactical_bomber moved from Slovakia Hungary to Bulgaria
            2 bombers moved from Western Germany to 115 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Western Germany to Novgorod

Combat - Germans
            Germans creates battle in territory 109 Sea Zone
            Battle in Bulgaria
                Germans attack with 1 fighter, 3 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber
                Russians defend with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                    Germans roll dice for 1 fighter, 3 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber in Bulgaria, round 1 :  1/5 hits
                    Russians roll dice for 1 artillery and 1 infantry in Bulgaria, round 1 :  1/2 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Russians and 1 mech_infantry owned by the Germans lost in Bulgaria
                    Germans roll dice for 1 fighter, 2 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber in Bulgaria, round 2 :  1/4 hits
                    Russians roll dice for 1 artillery in Bulgaria, round 2 :  0/1 hits
                    1 artillery owned by the Russians lost in Bulgaria
                Germans win, taking Bulgaria from Russians with 1 fighter, 2 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Germans: 1 mech_infantry
                Casualties for Russians: 1 artillery and 1 infantry
            Battle in Tunisia
                Germans attack with 2 bombers
                Americans defend with 1 mech_infantry
                    Germans roll dice for 2 bombers in Tunisia, round 1 :  1/2 hits
                    Americans roll dice for 1 mech_infantry in Tunisia, round 1 :  0/1 hits
                    1 mech_infantry owned by the Americans lost in Tunisia
                Germans win with 2 bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 4
                Casualties for Americans: 1 mech_infantry
            Battle in 115 Sea Zone
                Germans attack with 2 bombers and 1 tactical_bomber
                Russians defend with 1 cruiser and 1 submarine
                1 submarine owned by the Russians Submerged
                    Germans roll dice for 2 bombers and 1 tactical_bomber in 115 Sea Zone, round 1 :  2/3 hits
                    Russians roll dice for 1 cruiser in 115 Sea Zone, round 1 :  1/1 hits
                    1 cruiser owned by the Russians and 1 tactical_bomber owned by the Germans lost in 115 Sea Zone
                Germans win with 2 bombers remaining. Battle score for attacker is 1
                Casualties for Germans: 1 tactical_bomber
                Casualties for Russians: 1 cruiser
            Strategic bombing raid in Novgorod
                    AA guns fire in Novgorod :  1/1 hits
                1 bomber killed by AA guns
                Bombing raid in Novgorod causes 0 damage total.

Non Combat Move - Germans
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Germans from 109 Sea Zone: 1 submarine
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Germans to 110 Sea Zone: 1 submarine
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber moved from Bulgaria to Yugoslavia
            1 mech_infantry moved from Greater Southern Germany to Poland
            2 bombers moved from Tunisia to Egypt
            1 fighter moved from Southern Italy to Egypt
            7 mech_infantrys moved from Western Germany to Poland
            2 aaGuns and 5 infantry moved from Western Germany to Germany
            2 bombers moved from 115 Sea Zone to Poland
            1 aaGun moved from Western Germany to Germany
            10 artilleries moved from Germany to Poland
            1 aaGun, 6 armour, 5 artilleries, 14 infantry and 1 mech_infantry moved from Slovakia Hungary to Poland

Place Units - Germans
            2 infantry placed in Germany
            3 transports placed in 110 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer and 2 transports placed in 110 Sea Zone

Turn Complete - Germans
            Total Cost from Convoy Blockades: 8
                Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 119 Sea Zone. Rolls: 2,2
                Rolling for Convoy Blockade Damage in 109 Sea Zone. Rolls: 2,2,1,3
            Germans collect 36 PUs (8 lost to blockades); end with 36 PUs total
            Trigger Germans 4 Presence In Egypt: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 41 PUs

Territory Summary for Germans :

Egypt : 1 flag, 2 bombers, 1 fighter and 1 infantry
    Scotland : 1 flag, 1 airfield
    United Kingdom : 1 flag, 1 airfield, 3 armour, 4 artilleries, 1 factory_minor, 1 fighter, 1 harbour and 7 infantry
    Normandy Bordeaux : 1 flag, 1 factory_minor and 1 harbour
    French Central Africa : 1 flag, 1 armour
    France : 1 flag, 1 airfield and 1 factory_minor
    Slovakia Hungary : 1 flag, 1 infantry
    Western Germany : 1 flag, 1 airfield, 1 factory_major and 1 harbour
    Poland : 1 flag, 1 aaGun, 6 armour, 15 artilleries, 2 bombers, 14 infantry and 9 mech_infantrys
    Germany : 1 flag, 3 aaGuns, 1 factory_major and 7 infantry
    Baltic States : 1 flag, 1 infantry
    106 Sea Zone : 1 flag
    Bulgaria : 1 flag, 2 mech_infantrys
    Yugoslavia : 1 flag, 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber
    110 Sea Zone : 1 flag, 1 destroyer, 1 submarine and 5 transports

Production/PUs Summary :

Germans : 44 / 41
    Russians : 48 / 73
    Japanese : 51 / 58
    Americans : 55 / 71
    Chinese : 9 / 15
    British : 11 / 0
    UK_Pacific : 10 / 13
    Italians : 26 / 14
    ANZAC : 9 / 23
    French : 2 / 0
    Dutch : 0 / 0
    Mongolians : 0 / 0
    Neutral_Axis : 0 / 0
    Neutral_Allies : 0 / 0
    Neutral_True : 18 / 0

Dice Statistics:

Total
            1 was rolled 5 times
            2 was rolled 6 times
            3 was rolled 6 times
            5 was rolled 4 times
            6 was rolled 5 times
        Average roll : 3,269
        Median : 3,000
        Variance : 1,040
        Standard Deviation : 1,020
        Total rolls : 26

Null / Other
            1 was rolled 1 times
            2 was rolled 2 times
            3 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 2,000
        Median : 2,000
        Variance : 2,000
        Standard Deviation : 1,414
        Total rolls : 4

Germans Combat
            1 was rolled 1 times
            2 was rolled 2 times
            3 was rolled 4 times
            5 was rolled 4 times
            6 was rolled 3 times
        Average roll : 3,929
        Median : 4,000
        Variance : 1,077
        Standard Deviation : 1,038
        Total rolls : 14

Russians Combat
            1 was rolled 3 times
            2 was rolled 2 times
            3 was rolled 1 times
            6 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 2,286
        Median : 2,000
        Variance : 1,167
        Standard Deviation : 1,080
        Total rolls : 7

Americans Combat
            6 was rolled 1 times
        Average roll : 6,000
        Median : 6,000
        Variance : ?
        Standard Deviation : ?
        Total rolls : 1

[Ghostglider]

Sub was edited from z109 to z110. I hope it is ok…
When I moved France I forgot to declare war against all neutrals… Could you please do it yourself during Russia 6?
Best regards,
Ghostglider

[boldfresh]

@Ghostglider:

Sub was edited from z109 to z110. I hope it is ok…
When I moved France I forgot to declare war against all neutrals… Could you please do it yourself during Russia 6?
Best regards,
Ghostglider

that won’t happen for a few more rounds…  :wink:

[Ghostglider]

It was worth the shot  :-D

[boldfresh]

Something recently came to my attention on the boards, and it is very important that we establish this here in our game…  sea zone 115 should not contact Poland.  Please see the attached photo of the global board which clearly shows that the map we are operating with is incorrect as drawn.

Poland sea zone.pdf

[boldfresh]

This of course means that the tac could not reach z115 to attack the cruiser but since the dice have all spoken, we will leave it as rolled.  However, if this would happen to change your noncombat moves for G6 please speak now or forever hold your peace.  :-)

[boldfresh]

i can see it either way - perhaps it is better to just finish with the map we began with, rather than implement this change now.  since we have already began the game under the assumptions of this map that is probably best.  but the sea zone is clearly meant to be drawn in such a way as to give z115 more distance from german territories.

[Ghostglider]

I have just looked at battlemap, which is used at daak.de and there you are right.
Sorry about the mistake.

Please cancel the attack on z115 and add the CRU again. Please land the T.BMB in Poland. Then I can clear z115 next turn instead.

[Ghostglider]

I have attached the new map after G6. Please go ahead with your allied moves.

06 - Germany - Final.tsvg

[boldfresh]

Just waiting for Dutch to weigh in on z115
resolution, since the attach was both legal
for the strat bombers but illegal for the
tac bomber.  i heard from him last night
as he was flying across the country and
he said he would be able to look at the map
this morning and give me his thoughts.

also, we did NOT EXPECT a german purchase of 5
transports!!  so we need to confer a bit about
coordination before i move with russia.  :-)

thanks, hopefully we can keep this one moving
today!

[boldfresh]

i’m leaning toward recommending we keep the result as it was rolled since the 2 strat bombers could reach the cruiser, but i want dutch’s thoughts.

[Ghostglider]

The result can not be kept after an illegal battle…
Two options in my mind:
1. Battle is allowed to be cancelled - but units can not participate in other battles this turn.
2. Battle must be made with units that can reach = reroll 2 S.bmb vs. 1 cru

I think option 1 is most fair so therefore I made the adjustments to the map and attached the new map.

[boldfresh]

Yes the tac was illegally in the battle (although according to the map we were using it was not).  But we cannot know for sure (even you may not know) whether you would have attacked with 2 s.bom or not.  I do not think it is good practice that if a battle occurs where 1 unit was there illegally, the entire battle is canceled regardless of result of the battle.  I would lean more toward the belief that if a battle occurs with an illegal unit(s), the dice from that unit(s) are canceled and the battle stands as otherwise rolled.  In this case, it makes the difference between losing a tac or losing a s.bom.  Of course depending on the number of illegal units and the circumstances of the battle, good sportmanship and reason should prevail.

I guess my suggestion is that it is most fair to either:
1.  say the 2 s.bom attacked the cruiser and both sides hit or
2.  leave the battle as it was just enforcing the correct sea zones from now on

I am not hugely opposed to your suggestion that the battle is simply canceled but I am concerned about the precedence that may set.  I would prefer to encourage personal responsibility for knowing the rules of the game - hope that makes sense.

[dutchmand]

Sorry for the absence mates.

I am not going to make a big deal out of something caused my a map error. But, in any event the battle should not be re-rolled. The dice were already thrown for the same units that were in the battle. The fact that the cruiser hit can’t be undone because one of the units of the attacker couldn’t make it. Why would that cause the cruiser to have to re-roll?

However its resolved the cruiser already rolled. The strat bombers too for that matter.

I do believe the attack would have been made without the tac… you guys just strafed tunisia and greece, so you were clearly open to losing a bomber…

[Bjergmose]

If we look at the rules at daak.de they say it has to be rerolled or cancelled.

“6.3 Combat declaration errors
Battles that contain combat declaration errors are invalid and have to be repeated or cancelled. This will only be applied to battles that contain combat declaration errors. The results of battles that were correctly declared will stand.
Exception: If the results of some or all of the correct battles have any effect on the decision of the attacker to repeat incorrect battles, then the defender can ask for a reroll of these (correct) battles. If the players can’t agree, the minister of defense will decide.”

That seems like the best solution. We shouldn´t apply our own set of rules even if the cruiser did hit.
We can´t assume that the attack would´ve been made anyways. The only thing we can do is to cancel or reroll.
And ghostglider opted to cancel.

Now on with the show….I´ve got places to be, australians to kill  :|

[boldfresh]

I don’t really agree with the daak rules on this issue.  However, I am willing to accept them and continue.

To use an extreme example to illustrate a point, say I were to attack a large fleet with OVERWHELMING odds, but one of the fighters I took to the battle was not legal.  And let’s say, for sake of this illustration, that the fleet defended incredibly and wiped out my entire attacking force.  Using this daak rule, the defender would be treated terribly unfairly since he just got the 1 in 1000 result of an incredible defense, only to have it canceled because of the opponent’s error of bringing an illegal aircraft, when the opponent would have done the battle even without the additional fighter.  At the very least, I think the minister of defense should be allowed to rule on more than just the “exception” clause, because in an example such as this, that rule clearly gives a wrong ruling.

[Bjergmose]

I agree. But the rules should be made from any (normal) situation, not the 1 in a million  :-D

If the player making the wrong move, then is killed one-in-a-million-style, is the one demanding rerolls ´cos he took an xtra fighter then I would be suspicious too.  :-o

[boldfresh]

Ok, I think we are good to proceed, but unfortunately, I am probably too busy today to put my master plan together (the plan to CRUSH germany, that is).  In addition, that dutch guy is also on holiday and so our nefarious coordination efforts have not been able to occur.

May post today, but don’t plan on it.  Should be able to post on Monday if I hear from that dutch guy.

[boldfresh]

looks like i may have time to post!  let’s see.