When I say I am Agnostic, I believe there is something out there. I think there is probably an afterlife. But, I personally think all organized Religions are just lies, claiming they know the real truth. The reality is, no one knows. Not a single person on the planet really knows.
Thanks for the answer.
First of all, why should we give a sh*t what a silly high school kid thinks?
If you don’t care, don’t read komrade. It’s better having an opinion and expressing it, than having no opinion and following the mob, no ?
Hey, calm down YB, these are just my thoughts. No need to get touchy )
Yeah Yanny and FS - i was wondering what YB was going on about there. I was hoping he was being very oddly sarcastic . . . mind you, people maybe rude for the sake of being rude . . . .
I don’t put much worry into what extremist yahoo’s like Rev. Falwell say. Clearly a blind general grouping of Atheists, Communists, Drug Dealers, etc. doesn’t require an educated response. Organized Religion still serves a purpose or people would do away with it. Some might say that is the current “trend”, however I doubt any census will show a massive shift away from it. We won’t see any major religious changes this millenium, our big three monotheistic groups are still going through motions.
Try as we will to voice our opinions to change or stump minds into second guessing their beliefs, it all boils down to your own faith. Only you, can change your mind, if you dare. All opinions and “evidence” is right there in front of us, in the end you interpret for yourself what makes sense to you and well, there you have it. If my atheism is incorrect in death, well, hopefully points are awarded to my unchanged beliefs, and let the cards fall as they may.
I’m certain if religion wasn’t invented, people would find another reason to kill. People do. As it may sound heretical to kill in the name of one’s “God”, people have found reasons to do so for a long time. Most of the “real” reasons for doing so have nothing to do with God, but man’s own greed for power or wealth. For thousands of years, all of civilization, no God has been able to prevent this; nor does Man want to…
Yanny, it was a joke (signaled by the :) )
Jews are taught to hate Muslims? Really? Where did you learn this? Never in any Jewish work I’ve seen has anything been written about hating Muslims, Christians or any other group. Maybe I’ve overlooked something, please enlighten me if you have some proof. Who syas all religions have missionary work? I know mine does not allow it, it makes conversion hard in order to force converts to truly wantto join the religion.
Also, the rules in the bible are meant to improve our life, many of the marital laws are meant to protect the woman and the man from doing thigns that aren’t allowed. If you are allowed to have pre-marital sex, then surely now idolatry will be allowed and why even bother getting married, I mean, youy can have all the relations you want. What I’m trying to show is that sometimes if you give a man an inch he’ll want a mile. Affair rates and divorce rates among religious Jews from what I’ve seen are less than 2%, and they follow laws such as men cannot touch women except immediate family and they can only touch their wives at certain times. Many of them live happy lives and still have good relations with their spouses. Think of it this way: by waiting before having sexual relations, you’ll want to have them and each time it will be like the first one. If you were allowed to do it whenever you like then it would get boring and then you’d want to find the excitement again maybe even with the secretary at work.
Another way to look at some of the rules in the Bible is that sometimes you have to contorl your desires. If I have a burning desire to kill you, Yanny, I still can’t do it and have to learn to control my desire. The same is with pre-marital sex. You want to do it, but you have to control your desires. Are you going to shoplift that favourite chocolate bar or control your desires? Now explain to me your point of view. Why is it right? What do you gain from pre-marital sex? How can it improve our lives?
Also, the rules in the bible are meant to improve our life, many of the marital laws are meant to protect the woman and the man from doing thigns that aren’t allowed.
They aren’t allowed for what ? A non-existing anthropomorphic being ? I won’t obey to something i believe is illogical :) (and by illogical i think judaism, islamism and christianism are on the same level) First i really don’t see how god can exist, and Second i don’t see, even if he does exist, why i should obey him. I never obey to my parent because they were my parent, i obey when i think it was right and i know they want the best for me, but i don’t see, if god is the creator of humanity, how could it be otherwise.
If you are allowed to have pre-marital sex, then surely now idolatry will be allowed and why even bother getting married, I mean, youy can have all the relations you want. What I’m trying to show is that sometimes if you give a man an inch he’ll want a mile. Affair rates and divorce rates among religious Jews from what I’ve seen are less than 2%, and they follow laws such as men cannot touch women except immediate family and they can only touch their wives at certain times. Many of them live happy lives and still have good relations with their spouses. Think of it this way: by waiting before having sexual relations, you’ll want to have them and each time it will be like the first one. If you were allowed to do it whenever you like then it would get boring and then you’d want to find the excitement again maybe even with the secretary at work.
Sorry my friend but i do not need anyone to be loyal. God or not i want to be able to look at myself in a glass, so with the secretary at work; no ! I don’t want to, and even if it was the case there is something i call “loyalty”, i you don’t have sex with other woman just because of god there’s a serious problem. And it does’nt “get boring” (well maybe when you’re old but it’s something else), i really don’t see why responsable people cannot sleep together, even if they’re 16.
Another way to look at some of the rules in the Bible is that sometimes you have to contorl your desires. If I have a burning desire to kill you, Yanny, I still can’t do it and have to learn to control my desire. The same is with pre-marital sex. You want to do it, but you have to control your desires. Are you going to shoplift that favourite chocolate bar or control your desires? Now explain to me your point of view. Why is it right? What do you gain from pre-marital sex? How can it improve our lives?
There’s a big difference between “killing” and “loving”. Shoplifting and Murder are crimes, with no use, they don’t help our soceity a lot. Sex is between two people, and it’s nobody affair exept them. You cannot compare Killing and Sex them just because they are desire, we don’t care they are desire as long as they don’t harm other people.
Emugod - I doubt many religious groups have “written” hatred towards other groups. I’m certain at times it is preached however…
Why are they crimes? Why should they be crimes? According to your logic, then NOTHING is a crime. WE can do whateveer we like. Why should I be punished? If I kill someone and I’m responsible enough to do it so that I wont be caught and that I can deal with the reprecussions, then why shouldn’t I? You’re saying, “they’re crimes”. Well, anything can or cannot be a crime. There can be societies where killing is not a crime. At the atheist level, everythign is allowed. If there is no God or centre to the universe that give us some sense of orientation, then there is no orientation and we are free to do anything. According to atheism, there should be no laws, no punishments, no rewards. Nothing at all because there is nothing to guide humans.
Loyalty comes through the knowledge that marriage is something yo ucan’t tamper with and that your spouse loves you. Once again, why is there marriage? Why should I care if I sleep with many women or not? If there’s no centre to the universe that guides me, then what I can or cannot do is my choice. If I decide I want to sleep with many women, that’s my choice. What is loyalty and why should I be loyal? If she leaves me, why should I care? Why should I not cheat on her, she could be cheating on me and in an atheist world, that’s fine as long as she’s responsible. Are people ever turly responsible? Until you’ve tried ut, you never know if you’re ready. Also, sex can be a “crime”, if it’s idolatry you’re trying to interfere with the marriage of two people. Should this be allowed? What if the two people ar responsible enough? you’re trying to argue about crimes, but on yoru level crimes do not exist and rulesdo not exist. Without God or if God has “died” as some atheists put it, then our lives are ruled by nothing. Everything is allowed. There are no rewards and punishments and we do not have to worry about anything at all so we can therefore do anything.
Field Marshall and Yanny - Give me some examples of preaching that has happened that you know of. If you know of it and have examples, show them to me. I’m interested in seeing them. If you don’t hae any, then don’t make statements without any base to them.
although i respect your opinions on Religon Yanny but over the past 4 days my Idea on Religion (Christianity) has dramaticly changed almost to the point were i may actully beleive in the thing. but tell me this yanny has it ever occurred to u that possibly just maybe Religon could be true and thats why it exists? just a thought. but goinga little OT the most convincing thing about Religon isnt the laws and its organization its the depth and the fact that the Bible, Koran, Pyramids, and Prophets alll basicly agree how the future is going to play out. the Frekin Pyramids depict when WW3 is going to happen the Bible says the same time as does the Koran and Nostrudomas. and as current events develope the way in which they say it happens doesnt seem that far fetched nemore. so basiclly i recommend all who are skeptic on Religon pick up the prophecies of Nostrodomis and try to look a little into Astrology and if the Events that they depict happen and it all matches up i recomend changing ur beleif ;) just a thought.
Why are they crimes? Why should they be crimes? According to your logic, then NOTHING is a crime. WE can do whateveer we like. Why should I be punished? If I kill someone and I’m responsible enough to do it so that I wont be caught and that I can deal with the reprecussions, then why shouldn’t I? You’re saying, “they’re crimes”. Well, anything can or cannot be a crime. There can be societies where killing is not a crime. At the atheist level, everythign is allowed. If there is no God or centre to the universe that give us some sense of orientation, then there is no orientation and we are free to do anything. According to atheism, there should be no laws, no punishments, no rewards. Nothing at all because there is nothing to guide humans.
Yes you’re right, we can do whatever we like, but we, humanity, create a soceity with rules so we survive. I have my own judgement, i can judge what i think is human, what i think is’nt human, i don’t say, “hey, that’s the truth”, i just use my jugement. Also i won’t create a God just because i need someone to support my belief, i can defend myself alone, and as there is no reason, no logical reason from my point of view, to believe in God, then i would’nt, and my logical reasoning is the most objective as possible, i won’t accept god because i respect my parent and they does believe in him, and i won’t accept him just because i need a guide and a short answer for everything, i reject the concept because it’s irrational. If the concept was rational, and there’s was sign that our “creator” whant X and Y, then i’ll think of it, but it’s not the case, and even you say “hey it’s stupid we can do everything”, it’s not an argument for god, it’s an argument for the usefulness* of god, it does’nt mean he exist. Anyway, humans are killing other humans with god or without god, we saw that in Soviet Russia, in World War 2, in Israel, everywhere… By Christians, Atheist, Jews, Yellow, Black, White and Red people.
Loyalty comes through the knowledge that marriage is something yo ucan’t tamper with and that your spouse loves you. Once again, why is there marriage? Why should I care if I sleep with many women or not? If there’s no centre to the universe that guides me, then what I can or cannot do is my choice. If I decide I want to sleep with many women, that’s my choice. What is loyalty and why should I be loyal? If she leaves me, why should I care? Why should I not cheat on her, she could be cheating on me and in an atheist world, that’s fine as long as she’s responsible. Are people ever turly responsible? Until you’ve tried ut, you never know if you’re ready. Also, sex can be a “crime”, if it’s idolatry you’re trying to interfere with the marriage of two people. Should this be allowed? What if the two people ar responsible enough? you’re trying to argue about crimes, but on yoru level crimes do not exist and rulesdo not exist. Without God or if God has “died” as some atheists put it, then our lives are ruled by nothing. Everything is allowed. There are no rewards and punishments and we do not have to worry about anything at all so we can therefore do anything.
Use your own mind ! You choose to follow a religion, you choose to follow a set of rules. There is no difference between your choise of embracing the set of rules of Judaism, and my choice of choosing my own set of rule. If you don’t sleep with other women just because of God, then you don’t know what is love. If you don’t kill because of god, then you don’t know what’s a social conscience. Sorry but your “in a atheist world” is a non-sence, Atheist are not more or less cheating on each other, in the US the divorce rate is 23% vs 27% for the Christians. You are blind if you believe you cannot have a sence of ethic without god. Our life are ruled by the soceity, by ourself, by the human race and it’s evolution, these are the rules, and it’s also ruled by religion. NO there is no rewards, i don’t need the concept of heaven to be gentle with the people i like.
If God ask you to kill a child, would you do it ? Don’t say “he would’nt do that”, just answer, IF he ask you this, would you do it ?
* usefulness; not “Usefull” like in an explanation of something (occam’s razor), but usefull in the social sence… it’s like saying, if we are Immortal, then death is’nt the end. It can be “usefull” to calm the fear of some people facing death, but it is’nt true because of that. It’s an evidence that people does’nt seem to respect a lot, they’ll belief in what’s paint in pink, even if it’s ridicoulus, on of the biggest exemple is those who believe that ETs will come soon to cure every diseases.
:lol:
sex is a complex issue - both within, and outside of the auspices of Judeo-Christian religion.
We are not to avoid extra-marital sex b/c God is feeling arbitrary, but for the same reasons that many of the Bible’s teachings are what they are - handy guides for living our lives.
Even if you are not religious, there are many reasons for “waiting” until marriage for sex. Nevermind the STD’s, cervical cancer, children (but wait - we can pre-emptively kill those), but there is (or can be) a lot of meaning attached to the concept of sex. Of course if i go around sticking my dick into everything, then the meaning diminishes. Now it’s just a way to kiss off an hour or two with some woman i just met.
From a religious point of view, our body is supposed to be a temple - a place for the spirit of God to dwell. In Chrisitianity, the sex act involves the uniting of two people in a spiritual way as well as a physical one. It’s a little difficult to explain this bit, but the sex act diminishes in meaning from a spiritual point of view, and the temple just isn’t the same anymore if you get it on with every skirt.
Also FS - w/ regards to your stats, i’m curious as to their origen, and to what degree Christian divorcees consider themselves to be Christian (i.e. merely paying lip-service to something they don’t believe in anymore, as with their marriage vows).
See, your starting to agree with me Mike even if you don’t realise it. I am not an Atheist. I am not saying that Religion is false. I am saying that organizing, and adding rules to beliefs is wrong, and corrupts the very ideal of religion. All these Religions, Egyptian, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, they might all mean something. But hell, none of them are correct. How can something created by humans be correct. Even the writers of the bible are subject to human falts.
Sex is not a crime, though many religions have punished those as if it was. Shoplifting is a crime. What is the difference? I am not harming anyone by having sex with them, in fact we are both (hopefully) enjoying it. In the end, nothing bad happens. When I shoplift, someone’s checkbook gets physically harmed.
EmuGod, do you mean adultery not idolatry? I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be picky, but it threw me off for a second. Actually, my friends would say I’ve been off for a long time now. :lol: Anyhow, Falwell isn’t speaking for God. He’s not putting words in God’s mouth. God says right in the Bible that Jesus is the only way to Heaven.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me [emphasis mine].
No, but you do need the concept to have life after death. Without that, what is the point to even living?
I do not believe that. Death is the end.
How do you rationalize believing in such low probabilities that everything came about the way it did based on random processes?
How can you believe Nature has human trait like intelligence and conscience ?
Yes I would. And God has asked for this to be done in the past. He asked Abraham to do it.
Incredible
And Atheists are “evil”
Even if you are not religious, there are many reasons for “waiting” until marriage for sex. Nevermind the STD’s, cervical cancer, children (but wait - we can pre-emptively kill those), but there is (or can be) a lot of meaning attached to the concept of sex. Of course if i go around sticking my dick into everything, then the meaning diminishes. Now it’s just a way to kiss off an hour or two with some woman i just met.
Honestly, i don’t care about what other are doing in their bedroom, if you prefer not to have sex outside marriage, it’s ok, i just don’t think it’s a question of morality. Personaly, i won’t, to use your expression, “kiss off an hour or two with some woman i just met”, but when you’re with a girl you love for some time i don’t see any problem.
Also FS - w/ regards to your stats, i’m curious as to their origen, and to what degree Christian divorcees consider themselves to be Christian (i.e. merely paying lip-service to something they don’t believe in anymore, as with their marriage vows).
I really don’t remember where i get that, but you can found the same information on;
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac.htm#div
Yes you’re right, we can do whatever we like, but we, humanity, create a soceity with rules so we survive. I have my own judgement, i can judge what i think is human, what i think is’nt human, i don’t say, “hey, that’s the truth”, i just use my jugement. Also i won’t create a God just because i need someone to support my belief, i can defend myself alone, and as there is no reason, no logical reason from my point of view, to believe in God, then i would’nt, and my logical reasoning is the most objective as possible, i won’t accept god because i respect my parent and they does believe in him, and i won’t accept him just because i need a guide and a short answer for everything, i reject the concept because it’s irrational. If the concept was rational, and there’s was sign that our “creator” whant X and Y, then i’ll think of it, but it’s not the case, and even you say “hey it’s stupid we can do everything”, it’s not an argument for god, it’s an argument for the usefulness* of god, it does’nt mean he exist. Anyway, humans are killing other humans with god or without god, we saw that in Soviet Russia, in World War 2, in Israel, everywhere… By Christians, Atheist, Jews, Yellow, Black, White and Red people.
Use your own mind ! You choose to follow a religion, you choose to follow a set of rules. There is no difference between your choise of embracing the set of rules of Judaism, and my choice of choosing my own set of rule. If you don’t sleep with other women just because of God, then you don’t know what is love. If you don’t kill because of god, then you don’t know what’s a social conscience. Sorry but your “in a atheist world” is a non-sence, Atheist are not more or less cheating on each other, in the US the divorce rate is 23% vs 27% for the Christians. You are blind if you believe you cannot have a sence of ethic without god. Our life are ruled by the soceity, by ourself, by the human race and it’s evolution, these are the rules, and it’s also ruled by religion. NO there is no rewards, i don’t need the concept of heaven to be gentle with the people i like.
If God ask you to kill a child, would you do it ? Don’t say “he would’nt do that”, just answer, IF he ask you this, would you do it ?
You’re saying I am blind? Look who’s saying “these are the rules”. Why are they the rules? Explain to me why! Sex can harm a person too. There’s a certain useless sack in the woman’s sexual organs (CC remind me of the name) that tears if hte woman is active or it can occur during sex. What if she is hurt? Then you are committing a crime! Stealing from someone doenst hurt them, they dont feel any physical pain so that’s fine. Now if yo usay emotional pain, then am I only allowed one lover? I mean, if I try to break up with them that will hurt them emotionally. Use your brain! Humans have no rules to their behaviour. Without that sense of God that has always existed, which has been our moral compass, we would do whatever we liked whenever we liked. We would still be those savages that ate everything in their path. Explain to me why these are the rules! Why shoudl we follow these and not other rules. If there is nothing to keep us in check, then there is no reason to follow those rules. If I choose to kill a person, that is my choice. Who are you to judge me? You’re my equal. Why is what I’m doing wrong? Murder is something I enjoy and I made sure the other person didnt feel any pain. So why should I be punished? Be logical. You are trying to say that one is a crime and the other isn’t. There are no crimes if God does not exist because humans decide everything and if I decide I want to murder, you have no right ot tell me it’s wrong. Not you or anyone else because we all have the choice.
What’s love FinsterniS? Describe for me how it works, what are the causes, symptoms and how to deal with it. Is love rational? Certainly not. Then why do you believe in love and not in God? Both cannot be proven scientifically and both cannot be seen, but only felt and followed. What is a conscience? It’s the sense of right and wrong. But there is no defintion of right and wrong without something to guide the universe, and the Athiest proposal is that ntohing runs the universe, which means there is no guide, and therefore no ethics. Whatever a person chooses is right. BTW, your statistic proved my point. 2% versus 23% is a big difference. I’m not arguing for Christianity because I dont know their laws and how they work.
fin - first thing i read was:
Truthfulness: Poll data on religious behavior and practice are notoriously unreliable. Individuals often describe their own behavior inaccurately; they answer questions according to what they think they should be doing.
Just like i said - people paying lipservice.
No one is forcing the woman to have sex. Its a crime otherwise.
A quick scan shows this must be one of the funniest threads ever – we got adultery & idolatry, we got malise (does that rhyme with valise, Yanny?) or do we mean malice – and we got afterlife. But I ain’t got time to read it right now, so I’ll just fire off this:
afterlife, shmafterlife. THIS is life. Make rules for the here and now, and the generations to come, with respect and astonishment for the generations who came before. Do we really have any say on what happens in the afterdeath?
while we’re chillin here on Planet Oit we may as well take comfort & awe in the mystical miracle of consiousness… take inspiration from this mother nature here, and take instruction from her wondrous, vast and intricate balancing
Oh, and while we’re at it - - create! Respect yer mother, be nice to your girlfren, and act with honor (honor is its own reward) – let me just aim at that first couple of points Yanny - - the Bible in 2 sentences “Be good. If you do, your afterlife will be great.” What a load of lard. It should read “Be good. If you do, your life and the lives of those around you will be better.” But no – there had to be a sales job about some always unprovable Great Reward. THIS is the reward: the sunrise, the sunset, the little boids singin their freakin little lungs out, and shitting all over my Honda. More power to em. I should loin where to park bettah.
…
And furthermore, Falwell is a lying sack of **** – who needs this creep?
OK now I’ve taken the time to read yer account of the Donahue show. (you sucked me into it!) Interesting. Donahue is in an all-out quest to save this show, for which the ratings were subzero. Bully for him to decide, judging from the exchange you relate, to just go for it and really say what’s on his mind to one of his least favorite persons.
You know what they say about agnostics – well a dyslexic agnostic insomniac is someone who lies awake all night doubting the existence of Dog.
Cheers
