Since this is an interesting topic, EmuGod brought it up, I’d like to start a seperate thread for it.
Christmas was started as "Christ’s Mass. The oldest existing record of this holiday was in the year 336 AD. It was a festival, some describe it to be like Maudi Gras. It was not until recent times when Christmas Trees and Presents evolved.
But Jesus was not born on the 25th of December. Few know his actual birthday, but we do know that it was in the Spring or Fall of the year 6 BC. The reason we celebrate his birth on the 25th if because the Church wanted to compete with other Religions. On the 25th, many celebrated the holiday of Yule. By placing Christmas on the 25th, the Church hoped to control the celebrations. Back then, it was Easter which was the most important holiday.
It should still be. The Resurrection of Jesus is the cornerstone of the faith…
true and true.
very few Christmas traditions have any basis in the bible. Oliver Cromwell, in an effort to rid Christianity of secular trappings sought to ban Christmas such that it remained a “religious” celebration only.
It is an important event as it marks not just the day that Jesus was born (theoretically, historical inaccuracies aside), but it marks the incarnation of God on earth. For many Christians Easter is the more important celebration, Christmas is the “fun” one.
First Yanny, Easter is the most important Christian Holiday. Christmas commercially gets a big rap but religiouly there is much more ‘hoo-hah’ over easter than Christmas.
Second, yes, there is no reason to believe that Jesus was born on December 25th. But the point isn’t to celebrate the day, but rather the birth. December 25th is as good a day as any to celebrate the birth of Jesus.
The early church decided that rather than celebrating the solstice/the Babylonian sun god people should celebrate the birth of Jesus. What is wrong with that?
the christmas tree origanated from the pagens, my freind is a pagen and he celebrates yule [winter solstice] with a tree decorated like a christmas tree, hes lucky becuase first he celebrates yule at home then he goes to his grand parents on christmas and celebrates it so he gets twice as much presents
The early church decided that rather than celebrating the solstice/the Babylonian sun god people should celebrate the birth of Jesus. What is wrong with that?
What business is it of the Church to decide what I celebrate. It was a form of control over the masses, that they should not have.
First Yanny, Easter is the most important Christian Holiday. Christmas commercially gets a big rap but religiouly there is much more ‘hoo-hah’ over easter than Christmas.
There is no importance really to either these days. All it means religiously is an extra long boring mass. But hell, I’d rather get a tree of presents rather than a basket of eggs…
The Christmas tree originated from the Normans. It was a pine tree because they were the only trees which could survive the winter.
When you say your friend is “pagan”, I don’t understand. Pagan simple means not of one of the Religions of the book.
By Pagan he’s probably refering to the ancient european polytheistic religion like the Celts with Belenos/Cernunnos/Taranis, the Norse with Odin/Tyr/Frigg, et cetera… They were celebrating the winter solstices, which is a good thing with the sun hiding most of the days, it’s normal we have more holidays, it’s the good time, when people tend to be more depressed (not that i don’t like winter).
The early church decided that rather than celebrating the solstice/the Babylonian sun god people should celebrate the birth of Jesus. What is wrong with that?
What business is it of the Church to decide what I celebrate. It was a form of control over the masses, that they should not have.
You have a point. The early church did a lot to establish itself early on. I think that Christmas was a way to distract people from following other religions at the time.
First Yanny, Easter is the most important Christian Holiday. Christmas commercially gets a big rap but religiouly there is much more ‘hoo-hah’ over easter than Christmas.
There is no importance really to either these days. All it means religiously is an extra long boring mass. But hell, I’d rather get a tree of presents rather than a basket of eggs…
Well, as a Christian, i obviously couldn’t disagree with you more. Unfortunately the secular trappings sometimes occlude the true importance of those days even for Christians. Also i don’t find the church services any longer on those days, although there is a Good Friday and Easter Sunday service. As a believer these are not so boring as celebrations. The tree of presents is nice tho’ . . . .
By Pagan he’s probably refering to the ancient european polytheistic religion like the Celts with Belenos/Cernunnos/Taranis, the Norse with Odin/Tyr/Frigg, et cetera… They were celebrating the winter solstices, which is a good thing with the sun hiding most of the days, it’s normal we have more holidays, it’s the good time, when people tend to be more depressed (not that i don’t like winter).
his famo\ily has been in north america since the 1400’s, wernt the people in thanksgiving pagan?
for an interesting take on how paganism has overrun the church, check out the following:
http://www.trinityfi.org/trinity/investi.html
this is a Christian organization that operates as a watchdog for televangelists while running charitible organizations.
my freind goes around calling himself a “son of a witch”
First, GeZe, your friend is an animist (one who practices animism)
Second, Yanny, again you are missing the point. I was talking about them as religious holidays pertaining to Christians. Thus your input of “I’d rather have presents than eggs” has absolutely no bearing.
Third, the Pagans did not invent the Christmas tree. Historically it stems from the tree of life from the garden of Eden (the tree was a prop re-enacting 2 and 3 Genesis) The modern tree developed in the 1600s in Germany.
My point is, both X-mas and Easter are no longer religious holidays. They have become as secular as the 4th of July.
And I’m saying that no, they have become two separate holidays religious and secular.
The new secular holidays have not replaced the religious. Don’t arrogantly assume that because you, a non-christian, do not celbrate a Christian holiday, and instead celebrate a secular spin-off, that it is gone.
P.S. Donahue is an old hack who should go back to the Mausoleam they draged him out of.
First, GeZe, your friend is an animist (one who practices animism)
Maybe… but it could be also a polytheist. Celtics ritual are often called “withery”, and those who worship Cernunnos and Belenus often call themself “witch”, and it’s not animism, it’s polytheism. So it’s not necessarely animism.
First, GeZe, your friend is an animist (one who practices animism)
Maybe… but it could be also a polytheist. Celtics ritual are often called “withery”, and those who worship Cernunnos and Belenus often call themself “witch”, and it’s not animism, it’s polytheism. So it’s not necessarely animism.
I think he calls himself a wicth because of the christian prosecution
I may not be Christian, but my family is. All they do religiously is go to an extra mass, and the few Easter masses I’ve gone to are filled with people balancing their checkbooks.
That’s just wrong. I grew up Roman Catholic. Sermons can be quite interesting at times if you care to listen…
Okay. I try not to post huge, long reproductions of texts, but I found that I could not summarize this one to my satisfaction, so here goes.
SANTA CLAUS
Santa Claus is that jolly old fellow who appears once a year, and then only to do good by bringing toys and games to “good little children.” Is that ALL there is to “Santa?” No, my Christian friend [oh, btw, did I forget to mention I took this from the tract “Is Christmas Christian?” written for Christians? :wink: ], it is not.
Although you may not believe in “evolution,” [again, evidence of the tract I took it from :) ] Santa, as we know him today, is a product of evolution. Let us trace his origin from the ancient times.
In Egypt, where the mother and child were worshipped, the “father-god” was know as “Khons” or “Khonos.” the name means “huntsman,” or “god of the chase,” and scholars have identified him as the “Nimrod” of Genesis 10, “the mighty hunter,” and the builder of “Babel” (or Babylon). (Pagan gods are always deified humans, but that is a story far too long for this small book). He is represented in both Babylon and Egypt as a half-man and half-bull, and also half-man and half-horse (the centaur of mythology), usually with wings, and he is called “Baal-abirin,” or “the winged one.” He is called “the omnipotent one,” and also “the unknown one,” giving him the unknowable qualities that left him in the background. He would be “THE UNKNOWN GOD” worshipped in Athens in Acts 17:23.
Over the centuries, his images evolved into more human form, usually clothed in a leopard skin, signifying his hunting prowess over the swiftest of animals. This spotted garment became a mark of kings and priests in Africa and Asia. the priests of “Bacchus” in Greece were clothed in leopard skins, later adopting the spotted skin of a young fawn or dyeing their robes to look like a spotted skin.
The “spotted deer” seems to have been adopted as combining both the spots of the leopard and the bull (or calf) of idol worship. In Ninevah, the capitol of Assyria, statues of Nimrod (Baal) show him wearing a spotted deer skin, or in some cases, carrying a spotted deer, AND NOW WE ARE GETTING CLOSE TO “SANTA CLAUS!”
In the drawing of Nimrod, above left, [unfortunately, I do not know how to reproduce this drawing] the similarity to “Santa Claus” can be seen in the long, flowing, white beard, the ornate dress, the “reindeer,” the fir tree (the “Christmas” tree!), and the wings, giving him power to “fly through the air!”
The drawing (above right) [please see my previous excuse :D] is of the Greek “Bacchus” and the similarity is certain. He does not carry the spotted deer but has a spotted robe, the tree of uncertain origin, and the “cup,” the symbol of drunken revelry, so great a part of “Christmas.” [although personally, I associate drunkenness (is that how you spell it?) with New Year’s]
Everything in caps and italics for emphasis in there was the author’s doing. my only input was the comments within the brackets and i change the word “deified” so it would be spelled correctly. i can’t stand finding spelling errors in stuff i read or stuff i write. silly pet peeve. oh well. I won’t accept this as ABSOLUTE fact, but it is an interesting theory. i find it harder to accept as fact because i don’t agree with other stuff in the booklet. namely is aversion to ham because the Bible forbids it. that’s old testament. in the new testament, God tells Peter that all the animals are good for food.
Anyway, sorry about the tangent. The Christmas tree is mentioned in Jeremiah 10:3-4, but not as a “Christmas” tree. Well, here I go again. I promise not to make this a habit.
For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
The tree was the people’s idol.
Well, I’m pretty sure this is the longest post I’ve ever made. Hopefully, they won’t always be like this. It amkes it hard to get to reading the rest of the new posts.
Speaking of Christian holidays, tomorrow is New Year’s and my question for all you Christians is why New Year’s is the day of Jesus’ circumcision. It seems odd to celebrate the new year from a Jewish ritual thast occured to Jesus.
Yes, Jeremiah does speak of putting trees in one’s home as a pagan ritual which is quite ironic considering Christians did this in the Middle Ages while they burned pagans and burned Jews while celebrating New Year’s.
Also, wasn’t Jesus really born in Nazareth and wasn’t his mother a prostitute? That’s what I’ve heard from some sources.
