2013 - AAG 40 League

[wheatbeer]

I am curious too.

If I understood right, in land combats aa causualties are choosen by attacker and in SBR aa fire is directed at individual planes (though tripleA handles SBR aa casualty selection the same as land combat).

[gamerman01]

First, I am answering with the understanding that you are asking about aircraft losses, and not AA gun losses.  AA guns should always be chosen by the defender.

The league rule is that you follow the rule book.

The rule book says that the attacker always gets to choose aircraft casualties.  This includes SBR.  Wheatbeer seems to be a bit confused, so I will attempt to help with that.

If you SBR a base with tacs and strat bombers, and you take AA hit(s), you may choose your casualties (probably tacs).

However, when you SBR multiple facilities at once, you are first dividing your aircraft into groups.  The reason the attacker sometimes has to take off strategic bombers and not tactical bombers is because the tactical bombers are attacking a different facility than the strategic bombers.

Example:

Strat bomb UK with 2 tactical and 4 strategic bombers.
Air battle is complete, no losses for Axis.
Axis player allocates 1 tactical and 1 strategic bomber to the air base
Axis player allocates 1 tactical bomber to the naval base
Axis player allocates 3 strategic bombers to the IC

You are to roll AA separately for each of the facilities.
2 AA shots for the air base
1 AA shot for the naval base
3 AA shots for the IC

If the air base AA hits, the Axis player chooses a casualty - could be tac or strat
If the naval base hits, the tactical bomber attacking the naval base is shot down
If the IC hits, the Axis player must lose strat bomber(s)

Triple A fouls this all up completely.  See my list of rules that Triple A does not properly follow here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cS3hFwoBP0rWr3208jw1LAtCvHYa9Ji9uU8PwbCMIwM/edit
Item #4 is SBR
Note also that Triple A (Item 4b) prompts you to choose facility targets before the air battle, and this is also incorrect.

[wheatbeer]

@Gamerman01:

If you SBR a base with tacs and strat bombers, and you take AA hit(s), you may choose your casualties (probably tacs).

That part I did not know … though I’ve never actually attacked a single base with a tact/strat mix.

@Gamerman01:

However, when you SBR multiple facilities at once, you are first dividing your aircraft into groups.  The reason the attacker sometimes has to take off strategic bombers and not tactical bombers is because the tactical bombers are attacking a different facility than the strategic bombers.

This I did know … but I would propose developing a standardized way to handle it.

For example, requiring such SBR’s to be rolled 100% with in-forum dice before the rest of the turn.
Or alternatively, rolling the facility aa fire inside tripleA and then (if necessary) allocating the hits on the basis of an in-forum die roll.

[gamerman01]

Right.
Consider this an announcement:

ALL LEAGUE PLAYERS SHOULD FAMILIARIZE THEMSELVES WITH MY TRIPLE A PROBLEMS DOCUMENT
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cS3hFwoBP0rWr3208jw1LAtCvHYa9Ji9uU8PwbCMIwM/edit

Items #1-18 are all issues that league players should be familiar with, because they are all areas where Triple A does NOT necessarily follow the rulebook properly!
The document is color coded so you can see where you need to be rolling dice on the forum!  These items are in RED

There are even more discrepancies from the rule book, but I actually did not list every last one, because I want Veqryn to fix these problems.  I don’t want to get too nit-picky or list too many things, so some very rare or minor glitches, I omitted.
What I’m saying is what Jenn has said since the beginning of the year:
League players are expected to read and know their rule books.  If you suffer disadvantage in a game because you did not know the rules, that is your own responsibility.  When in doubt, you can always ask.

[Guest]

Regarding 1a. In which situation does it matter that triple A doesn’t follow the rulebook?
Regarding 1b. A link to the worksheet would be welcome. Perhaps open a thread in which you post all the links, including the one that has the rankings and tiers. However again I am wondering when it does matter and the edit function should be used.

Regarding submarines. I can understand that there situations in which you have to roll on the forum. Mainly because of the size of the battles. However do you want to enforce the rule that we always roll these battles on the forum? Even when the OOL is clear and it doesn’t matter for the outcome of the battle and both players don’t mind using TripleA?

[bmnielsen]

One additional thing that I don’t think is in Gamer’s doc… TripleA allows you to let planes die instead of landing them, even when they could have landed safely. I think this is against the rules - at least, that’s the way I interpret the third bullet on non-combat air moves. This sometimes comes up since it can be beneficial to let a plane die instead of moving a carrier out of position to pick it up.

[gamerman01]

@bmnielsen:

One additional thing that I don’t think is in Gamer’s doc… TripleA allows you to let planes die instead of landing them, even when they could have landed safely. I think this is against the rules - at least, that’s the way I interpret the third bullet on non-combat air moves. This sometimes comes up since it can be beneficial to let a plane die instead of moving a carrier out of position to pick it up.

Good one.  I will add it.

[gamerman01]

nielsen - it’s item 16a now

Soulb, regarding 1a - first, it’s sometimes annoying to have to make DOW decisions before completing your purchases.
More significantly, if you are playing with tech.  Maybe as Japan your DOW decision would be much different if you just nailed long range aircraft or jets!

regarding 1b, there is almost nothing to my worksheet.  I have a cell where I put in the amount of IPC’s I have, and a cell that adds up the IPC’s of the items I am planning to purchase.  Normally when I have damage on my facilities, I enter them as a purchase item.  If I have >10 damage on a major and I want to repair it, I put in the # of IPC’s it will take to get the damage down to 10.  Then I enter the cost of each item I want to buy as 1 more than normal, for the damage.
So there’s really nothing to show you.

I just recently moved item 1b up to item 1b - it was in my “other significant complaints section”.  It’s a pet peeve for me.  I would like to be able to keep changing the amount of damage repair I am tentatively doing, at the same time that I am buying stuff.  Triple A makes you lock in your amount of damage repair before buying anything, and I don’t like that.  The rule book doesn’t make you repair all facilities, and then purchase things.  It’s simultaneous.

[gamerman01]

Regarding establishing a thread with links to my various documents - that is a great idea, but I do not have the capability (nor does Jenn) to sticky a thread.  If I make a regular thread it will just get buried quickly anyway.  Thanks for the good idea, though

[boldfresh]

@Gamerman01:

Regarding establishing a thread with links to my various documents - that is a great idea, but I do not have the capability (nor does Jenn) to sticky a thread.  If I make a regular thread it will just get buried quickly anyway.  Thanks for the good idea, though

Daaaavvvvvveeeeee. Jeeeeeeeeeennnnnsssssseennnnn……

[gamerman01]

@Soulblighter:

Regarding submarines. I can understand that there situations in which you have to roll on the forum. Mainly because of the size of the battles. However do you want to enforce the rule that we always roll these battles on the forum? Even when the OOL is clear and it doesn’t matter for the outcome of the battle and both players don’t mind using TripleA?

A good question.  No, I do not want to make any unnecessary rules.  Players need to use good judgement.

However, it is not just big battles where dice should be rolled on the forum.
Once on UK1 I was counterattacking a German sub that was in Z106.  I took a fighter, a destroyer, and a cruiser.  If I just roll this battle in triple A I have a problem if that sub rolls a “1”.  I have to choose a casualty before seeing whether I score a hit.  If I lose the destroyer and my 3 units all miss, then I cannot sink the sub and it will probably turn around on G2 and rip my cruiser.  However, if I do score a hit in the first round I would want to lose my destroyer.  I think you understand what I’m saying now.  Even a small battle involving even only 2 ships against 1 sub can have big ramifications.
There is no rule that you have to roll all battles involving subs on the forum because often it is not necessary.  You just have to be alert that if your decision to roll it in Triple A would disadvantage your opponent in any way, you need to be sensitive to that.  Often the disadvantage is for the attacker, so if the attacker decides to roll it in Triple A and accept any negative consequences (having to choose casualties before you should have to), then that’s his prerogative.

[gamerman01]

@Boldfresh:

@Gamerman01:

Regarding establishing a thread with links to my various documents - that is a great idea, but I do not have the capability (nor does Jenn) to sticky a thread.  If I make a regular thread it will just get buried quickly anyway.  Thanks for the good idea, though

Daaaavvvvvveeeeee. Jeeeeeeeeeennnnnsssssseennnnn……

Yeah, I’m going to send him a PM now

[Guest]

@Gamerman01:

nielsen - it’s item 16a now

Soulb, regarding 1a - first, it’s sometimes annoying to have to make DOW decisions before completing your purchases.
More significantly, if you are playing with tech.  Maybe as Japan your DOW decision would be much different if you just nailed long range aircraft or jets!

regarding 1b, there is almost nothing to my worksheet.  I have a cell where I put in the amount of IPC’s I have, and a cell that adds up the IPC’s of the items I am planning to purchase.  Normally when I have damage on my facilities, I enter them as a purchase item.  If I have >10 damage on a major and I want to repair it, I put in the # of IPC’s it will take to get the damage down to 10.  Then I enter the cost of each item I want to buy as 1 more than normal, for the damage.
So there’s really nothing to show you.

I just recently moved item 1b up to item 1b - it was in my “other significant complaints section”.  It’s a pet peeve for me.  I would like to be able to keep changing the amount of damage repair I am tentatively doing, at the same time that I am buying stuff.  Triple A makes you lock in your amount of damage repair before buying anything, and I don’t like that.  The rule book doesn’t make you repair all facilities, and then purchase things.  It’s simultaneous.

Basically it is mostly convenience. Ofcourse Triple A doesn’t follow the rulebook in these situations. Basically as long as Triple A doesn’t work as it should, we need to use our brain power even more then we should have.

Regarding the submarines. I think the problem depends on the amount of submarines on both sides. If both sides have a large number of submarines, then it would make sense to roll on the forum. If the OOL is rather straight forward, then it might not be an issue. If it isn’t then the roll should be done on the forum and so on. This makes a lot of sense. Fortunately I can’t remember a situation I had to roll on the forum. So I am glad.

[gamerman01]

I thought I already demonstrated pretty well, that I would want to roll a sub battle on the forum even in a small battle.  :-)

1 destroyer, 1 cruiser vs. 1 submarine

You would be wise to roll this battle on the forum because Triple A will roll the sub first, and if it hits it will require you to choose destroyer or cruiser.  If the destroyer and cruiser then miss, and you chose the destroyer (when you shouldn’t have had to choose it), then the sub gets away and you have a bare cruiser sitting there wanting to be sunk.
However, if you rolled it like you would face to face, you would roll the destroyer and cruiser first.  If you missed and the sub then hit, you would probably want to choose the cruiser and continue attacking the sub with the destroyer.

[Seador]

Regarding rocket notes

2. Rocket attacks
   a) You can legally attack the same facility multiple times per turn using different rocket-equipped air bases, but Triple A does not allow it.

This problem seems to have been fixed.  I have been happily pounding Moscow and London industry for several turns from multiple bases in this game.  http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31607.375

Combat Move - Germans
           Rocket attack in United Kingdom does 5 damage to factory_major owned by British
               Rockets in France roll: 5
           Rocket attack in United Kingdom does 3 damage to factory_major owned by British
               Rockets in Western Germany roll: 3
           Rocket attack in Russia does 4 damage to factory_major owned by Russians
               Rockets in Romania roll: 4
           Rocket attack in Russia does 4 damage to factory_major owned by Russians
               Rockets in Novgorod roll: 4

[MrRoboto]

Am I the only one, who sees a lot of question marks in the last post?

[gamerman01]

Thanks, Matt, I’ll take that off the list

No, Roboto, you’re not the only one

[gamerman01]

3b and 3c are still issues though?  Matt, if 3b is still true and you see the rocket result before choosing the next one, then it’s not fair for the attacker to roll them in Triple A like you did.  :-)

[Seador]

@Gamerman01:

3b and 3c are still issues though?  Matt, if 3b is still true and you see the rocket result before choosing the next one, then it’s not fair for the attacker to roll them in Triple A like you did.  :-)

I post my attack plan before posting combat, if it has changed, but yes B is still a game engine error.

I tested C, it is still broken.

Also, I see squares, not ?.  Interesting.

[gamerman01]

I see, yes, that’s a good solution for the rockets problem 2b (posting all rocket attack locations before rolling)

Thanks for answering back.