2013 - AAG 40 League

[bmnielsen]

@alexgreat:

I also happen to agree with the notion that with so many games played, numbers alone dont seem to be convincing. I can see bmnielsen’s point, but the fact remains that those games would run under different aspects (not sure if that is proper English). All games counting should be played in the same time, under the same rules, with the same mindset and should feel “fresh”.

With the same arguments you offer, why not letting count the last 5 games everyone plays during this season for next saison as well? When play-off games for this season can count double, why not leage games?

There is already a provision in the rules to allow unfinished league games at end of season to roll over to the next season, so there is some tolerance to rule changes. At this point it doesn’t look like the rule changes are going to be anything game-changing, but if that isn’t the case then obviously the games can’t be counted.

I don’t think anyone is arguing for games to be double-counted for both seasons. The playoffs are a bit of a special case, as the games are played at the same time as the next league season and, in the case of the extra playoff brackets, don’t really count for anything besides bragging rights.

If the issue is that some players don’t want their own games counted, but don’t have anything against the idea in principle, then we can just make it optional.

[Jennifer]

Historically, our league playoffs do not count for either season’s standings.  They also do not count against your total number of games played against specific opponents.

As for league games being played this year counting for next year if not finished, there were two thoughts that lead to that decision back when the first League Moderator came up with the rule.  (1) You could only play two games against a certain player, except in the case of a tie, and maybe you did not want to count the game so you could play two (or three) new games next year.  and (2) If you wanted to count it, for whatever reason, and it was too late to count it for the current year’s playoffs, you could count it for next year.

[gamerman01]

Alex, I was merely pointing out that you were asking Bold to justify his opinion after he had already asked you to justify yours.

Here was the sequence of events:
1. Bold asks all league players for reasons that the playoff games should not count toward next year
2. Alex asks Bold why he wants playoff games to count for next year
3. Gamer points out to Alex that Bold asked first and Alex evaded the question

It has nothing to do with bedtimes or holidays.  :-)

[gamerman01]

OK, so we actually do have a few reasons from different people why playoff games should not count for 2014:

1. Precedent - never been done before
2. Feels weird
3. Not needed to meet minimum game requirements
4. Only regular season league games should count as regular season league games.  Counting playoff games as regular season league games steals from the “freshness” of playing that first regular season game…

Personally, I agree with all of these reasons (it puts words to the negative feelings I felt at first when bmnielsen suggested it  :-))
however, I’m not sure whether these “cons” outweigh the “pros” or not.
Bottom line, nothing will be changing unless Jenn and I agree it should change when drawing up the rules for 2014.

[Jennifer]

What are the pro’s of counting playoff games for next year?

[gamerman01]

@Cmdr:

What are the pro’s of counting playoff games for next year?

I’ll let bmnielsen or someone who wants to do it, add to my pro’s below.

1. Players will be playing their “A” game in the playoffs, presumably, so counting it for next year may be more indicative of their abilities.
2. G40 games take many, many hours on average.  Players are playing up to 3 playoff games during the next league year, against league players, so they might as well count in the next year’s league.
3. They are basically league games being played in the 2013-2014 year between 2 league players.
4. It’s harder to build an impressive win-loss record in the subsequent year when you had to pour your efforts into up to 3 games at the beginning of the year that don’t count
5. More information is better.  Including the playoff games during 2013-2014 will make the rankings/standings more accurate and complete.

[gamerman01]

OK, I listed the cons and the pros, for the record.
I am on the fence on the issue - I am not strongly in favor or strongly against - just to be clear.  So don’t start arguing with me, because I didn’t take a stand.

[bmnielsen]

That sums it up pretty well, I think. I would add the point about the extra playoff brackets as well - they aren’t really an “official” part of the league and participation is voluntary, so at least for them I think it makes sense to let them count for something.

[seth4god]

I don’t know whether I should feel proud or embarrassed that 10 of the 11 game/topics that can show under the stickied threads are games I just posted in.

Would’ve had 11 of 11 had Arathorn & JDOW not posted in their game.

[arathorn]

@seththenewb:

I don’t know whether I should feel proud or embarrassed that 10 of the 11 game/topics that can show under the stickied threads are games I just posted in.

Would’ve had 11 of 11 had Arathorn & JDOW not posted in their game.

It’s because you’re a MACHINE!!! Way to go Seth!

[boldfresh]

@bmnielsen:

That sums it up pretty well, I think. I would add the point about the extra playoff brackets as well - they aren’t really an “official” part of the league and participation is voluntary, so at least for them I think it makes sense to let them count for something.

i, for one, will not be playing in the playoffs if these games do not count toward the 2014 league.

[Hank13]

@Boldfresh:

@bmnielsen:

That sums it up pretty well, I think. I would add the point about the extra playoff brackets as well - they aren’t really an “official” part of the league and participation is voluntary, so at least for them I think it makes sense to let them count for something.

i, for one, will not be playing in the playoffs if these games do not count toward the 2014 league.

You have convinced me - don’t count them!

In all seriousness, it doesn’t really make sense that one year’s games count towards the next (despite the arguments that have been made so far). If playing 4 games over 10 months next year is too difficult, I don’t see why you would want to be considered for the playoffs anyway, but that’s just me. Also, saying that counting these games ensures high-level players compete is a bit redundant as most already play each other, and this can be changed for next year’s league if ppg is how play-offs are decided. I personally don’t care as I probably won’t be playing in the playoffs regardless.

I would suggest that there are 2 simple solutions to this issue - 1. Gamerman/Jenn make an executive decision or 2. have the league members vote on their preference.

[boldfresh]

@Hank13:

@Boldfresh:

@bmnielsen:

That sums it up pretty well, I think. I would add the point about the extra playoff brackets as well - they aren’t really an “official” part of the league and participation is voluntary, so at least for them I think it makes sense to let them count for something.

i, for one, will not be playing in the playoffs if these games do not count toward the 2014 league.

Also, saying that counting these games ensures high-level players compete is a bit redundant as most already play each other, and this can be changed for next year’s league if ppg is how play-offs are decided.

MOST is the key word here.  i would like to stop the practice of allowing a player to hankpick opponents, make it to the playoffs, and do a faceplant.  then do it all again the next year.  now, if a player wants to rack up a record with no losses, but declines to participate in the playoffs, i have no issue with that.  more power to em.  :lol:

[gamerman01]

Playoff games will not count for next year’s league because they never have before.  It will take a joint decision by Jenn and me before November for that to change.

[boldfresh]

@Hank13:

@Boldfresh:

@bmnielsen:

That sums it up pretty well, I think. I would add the point about the extra playoff brackets as well - they aren’t really an “official” part of the league and participation is voluntary, so at least for them I think it makes sense to let them count for something.

i, for one, will not be playing in the playoffs if these games do not count toward the 2014 league.

You have convinced me - don’t count them!

In all seriousness, it doesn’t really make sense that one year’s games count towards the next (despite the arguments that have been made so far). If playing 4 games over 10 months next year is too difficult, I don’t see why you would want to be considered for the playoffs anyway, but that’s just me. Also, saying that counting these games ensures high-level players compete is a bit redundant as most already play each other, and this can be changed for next year’s league if ppg is how play-offs are decided. I personally don’t care as I probably won’t be playing in the playoffs regardless.

I would suggest that there are 2 simple solutions to this issue - 1. Gamerman/Jenn make an executive decision or 2. have the league members vote on their preference.

to clarify hank, i’m talking about the secondary “playoffs” that gamerman has suggested.  not the primary 8 man playoff for the league championship.  i would play in that if i qualified for it, even if the games didn’t count toward the following year’s league record.

[Hank13]

@Boldfresh:

to clarify hank, i’m talking about the secondary “playoffs” that gamerman has suggested.  not the primary 8 man playoff for the league championship.  i would play in that if i qualified for it, even if the games didn’t count toward the following year’s league record.

That makes more sense. I still don’t see an issue for these players to get the required number of games for next year’s playoffs. The argument that there needs to be some reason for them to play doesn’t really hold water - we are playing a board game - the only reward for winning is bragging and trash talk! (Just ask Cow :))

Being ranked 4th under Gamerman’s standings but 12th under win %, I very much agree that players racking up perfect records playing exclusively weaker players needs to be addressed, but I think people smarter than I are already on it.

[gamerman01]

@Hank13:

Being ranked 4th under Gamerman’s standings but 12th under win %

This makes my day.

This is why I started the strength of schedule calculation in the first place - to help players see past the W/L record and get a more accurate picture of the true level of success of his fellow players.

[boldfresh]

@Gamerman01:

@Hank13:

Being ranked 4th under Gamerman’s standings but 12th under win %

This makes my day.

This is why I started the strength of schedule calculation in the first place - to help players see past the W/L record and get a more accurate picture of the true level of success of his fellow players.

Bingo.

[gamerman01]

I will also take this opportunity to point out that players can hover over the Axis/Allies records for each player clear off to the right, and see which players they won/lost against with Axis/Allies.  This can help you get a clearer picture of the capabilities of the player in question.  :-)

[Hank13]

@Gamerman01:

@Hank13:

Being ranked 4th under Gamerman’s standings but 12th under win %

This makes my day.

I’m not sure if I should be offended by this or not…

I’m assuming you mean you are happy that your system is superior, rather than being happy at the fact that I suck when playing good players (or too often, against regular players)