2013 - AAG 40 League

[seth4god]

I just simply don’t see the reason why we should count them. With as much activity as there’s been this year, I don’t see how anyone playing a full year will have an issue meeting the minimum game requirements. I could maybe see the merit of this proposal if the activity were akin to the year before where a grand total of 35 whole games where played and counted in league play. This year league games should easily top 500 total games. Heck, there are many players whose total games this year exceed the total number of games played LAST year. So I’m not buying the we need these games to count towards the minimum games next year argument.

And if they’re the tourney games, then there’s no reason whatsoever to count them as early season games to spice up league play. That’s already being done by the tourney itself.

[boldfresh]

Once again progress gets delayed by the status quo.  I think the number of games players play will drop next year amongst the top players.  And in addition it will generate more league games BETWEEN top players.  I never said anything about tournament games counting toward the league.

[Seador]

@Gamerman01:

Alex, Bold asked his question first and you gave no answer.  Give a reason why they shouldn’t count.  Then maybe Bold can answer why he wants them to count.

I’d say because the motivation to play is entirely different, as is the perceived standard.  In a playoff or tournament (elimination) format I’d expect people to play to win.  By this, I sure wouldn’t expect a mulligan on a G1 when France goes tits up, or a UK1 when the Italian fleet demolishes the UK surprise attack, where I have been offered and offer rerolls in these scenarios during league play.

Likewise, as I posted in the league rule discussion area, not all players play league games for the same reason or with the same goals and it’s not fair to tie playoff players to a “must win” motivation for league play.

[Jennifer]

Maybe it’s just being a girl or just being a Geek, but I fail to see how sports and board games should mix. :P

Count, don’t count, I am not putting an opinion in.  I just wanted to comment on my feelings about using sports to justify arguments about board games.

[bmnielsen]

Wow, that sparked some debate :)

I mainly had three reasons for proposing it:

• As mentioned by others, the playoffs happen during the regular season, so it’s already kind of unorthodox compared to other tournaments.

• The extra playoff brackets that have been added are really just for fun - the winner of the second bracket isn’t a “champion” of anything. So I thought having the games count for something would sweeten the pot a bit. Perhaps it doesn’t make sense for the championship bracket though.

• For people like me who don’t have time for more than 1 or 2 simultaneous games, it can have a larger effect on how many games we manage to get in for the league. I don’t think anyone will be in danger of not hitting the minimum because of it, but at least for someone like myself, I’d like to have as many games played as possible so the rankings are as accurate as possible.

[lexgreat]

gamer, i can never get anything across to alex - can you please try to explain?  sheesh, this guy is scared of his own shadow!  :-P

Are you always running to Gamerman for help?

There is no need for help, and there is nothing you or Gamerman can “get across”. I simply dont see it your way. Thats not personal, otherwise I would oppose every argument and suggestion. Reasons have been put forward, one is that nowhere games can be forced against a certain opponent during regular seasons. You cannot force me to a game with you in the League (other than play-off, but we dont talk play-off, we talk games counting for regular season), so what justification you bring for being able to force games just because it is a play-off game for the 13 season?
That you would bring me as an example was to be expected, but it is my impression that percentage is not used for play-offs next year, and I made it very clear that I think thats very good that way. Your argument (I guess it is not an argument anyway, just a little barb) really is void.
Another is that likely the same rules will not be used. And another, simply, that even if it is true that we dont need to follow precedents or rules from other areas slavishly, something belonging to 2013 should not belong to 2014 as well simply because it feels, subjectively if you want, wrong. This is not about logic, you “feel” the picture is not muddled, and I “feel” it is very much so.

I also happen to agree with the notion that with so many games played, numbers alone dont seem to be convincing. I can see bmnielsen’s point, but the fact remains that those games would run under different aspects (not sure if that is proper English). All games counting should be played in the same time, under the same rules, with the same mindset and should feel “fresh”.

With the same arguments you offer, why not letting count the last 5 games everyone plays during this season for next saison as well? When play-off games for this season can count double, why not leage games?

Boldfresh: “Once again progress gets delayed by the status quo”

Just because it is from you, it is not automatically “progress”.
Its also not progress if it is from any other player. If I think retroactive changes dont make sense, and Gamerman thinks them necessary, do I vainly claim that Gamerman is in the way of progress?

Major things like this should get a vote, with enough players voting to get a representative result. And as always the majority decides.

Gamerman, one more thing: I would really appreciate if you dont moderate me like “Alex, Bold asked his question first and you gave no answer.” I gave my comment before going to bed, in my holidays. 30 minutes later Bold is running to you, and 6 more minutes later you state that I did not give an answer yet. Wow. Maybe start asking Boldfresh to refrain from remarks about other peoples personality? I am not keen to learn from Dr. Boldfresh (think thats how you called him lately) that I am scared from my own shadow.

And neither do I have to justify my opinions, nor do I have to justify them in the time you give me. No doubt strong, convincing, logical arguments make a better case to convince someone; and the ones put forward dont convince you. Thats fine. But yours (Bolds) simply dont convince me, either.

[boldfresh]

Chill out bro I didnt say anything with malice.  :-P. My point was give us reasons not just “no major sport does it”.  I know u r never gonna stop harping on the fact that I know gamer irl but u are just barking up the wrong tree bro.  Gamer is a free thinker that takes everything and everyone on its/their own merit.  If u wanna obsess I cant stop u but im just saying flesh out your reasons for something dont speak in cliche.

Cheers

[boldfresh]

As far as asking gamer for help I do so from time to time with a&a matters becuz I know of no one with a greater wealth of knowledge and experience qith the subject, with the possible exception of krieghund.

[bmnielsen]

@alexgreat:

I also happen to agree with the notion that with so many games played, numbers alone dont seem to be convincing. I can see bmnielsen’s point, but the fact remains that those games would run under different aspects (not sure if that is proper English). All games counting should be played in the same time, under the same rules, with the same mindset and should feel “fresh”.

With the same arguments you offer, why not letting count the last 5 games everyone plays during this season for next saison as well? When play-off games for this season can count double, why not leage games?

There is already a provision in the rules to allow unfinished league games at end of season to roll over to the next season, so there is some tolerance to rule changes. At this point it doesn’t look like the rule changes are going to be anything game-changing, but if that isn’t the case then obviously the games can’t be counted.

I don’t think anyone is arguing for games to be double-counted for both seasons. The playoffs are a bit of a special case, as the games are played at the same time as the next league season and, in the case of the extra playoff brackets, don’t really count for anything besides bragging rights.

If the issue is that some players don’t want their own games counted, but don’t have anything against the idea in principle, then we can just make it optional.

[Jennifer]

Historically, our league playoffs do not count for either season’s standings.  They also do not count against your total number of games played against specific opponents.

As for league games being played this year counting for next year if not finished, there were two thoughts that lead to that decision back when the first League Moderator came up with the rule.  (1) You could only play two games against a certain player, except in the case of a tie, and maybe you did not want to count the game so you could play two (or three) new games next year.  and (2) If you wanted to count it, for whatever reason, and it was too late to count it for the current year’s playoffs, you could count it for next year.

[gamerman01]

Alex, I was merely pointing out that you were asking Bold to justify his opinion after he had already asked you to justify yours.

Here was the sequence of events:
1. Bold asks all league players for reasons that the playoff games should not count toward next year
2. Alex asks Bold why he wants playoff games to count for next year
3. Gamer points out to Alex that Bold asked first and Alex evaded the question

It has nothing to do with bedtimes or holidays.  :-)

[gamerman01]

OK, so we actually do have a few reasons from different people why playoff games should not count for 2014:

1. Precedent - never been done before
2. Feels weird
3. Not needed to meet minimum game requirements
4. Only regular season league games should count as regular season league games.  Counting playoff games as regular season league games steals from the “freshness” of playing that first regular season game…

Personally, I agree with all of these reasons (it puts words to the negative feelings I felt at first when bmnielsen suggested it  :-))
however, I’m not sure whether these “cons” outweigh the “pros” or not.
Bottom line, nothing will be changing unless Jenn and I agree it should change when drawing up the rules for 2014.

[Jennifer]

What are the pro’s of counting playoff games for next year?

[gamerman01]

@Cmdr:

What are the pro’s of counting playoff games for next year?

I’ll let bmnielsen or someone who wants to do it, add to my pro’s below.

1. Players will be playing their “A” game in the playoffs, presumably, so counting it for next year may be more indicative of their abilities.
2. G40 games take many, many hours on average.  Players are playing up to 3 playoff games during the next league year, against league players, so they might as well count in the next year’s league.
3. They are basically league games being played in the 2013-2014 year between 2 league players.
4. It’s harder to build an impressive win-loss record in the subsequent year when you had to pour your efforts into up to 3 games at the beginning of the year that don’t count
5. More information is better.  Including the playoff games during 2013-2014 will make the rankings/standings more accurate and complete.

[gamerman01]

OK, I listed the cons and the pros, for the record.
I am on the fence on the issue - I am not strongly in favor or strongly against - just to be clear.  So don’t start arguing with me, because I didn’t take a stand.

[bmnielsen]

That sums it up pretty well, I think. I would add the point about the extra playoff brackets as well - they aren’t really an “official” part of the league and participation is voluntary, so at least for them I think it makes sense to let them count for something.

[seth4god]

I don’t know whether I should feel proud or embarrassed that 10 of the 11 game/topics that can show under the stickied threads are games I just posted in.

Would’ve had 11 of 11 had Arathorn & JDOW not posted in their game.

[arathorn]

@seththenewb:

I don’t know whether I should feel proud or embarrassed that 10 of the 11 game/topics that can show under the stickied threads are games I just posted in.

Would’ve had 11 of 11 had Arathorn & JDOW not posted in their game.

It’s because you’re a MACHINE!!! Way to go Seth!

[boldfresh]

@bmnielsen:

That sums it up pretty well, I think. I would add the point about the extra playoff brackets as well - they aren’t really an “official” part of the league and participation is voluntary, so at least for them I think it makes sense to let them count for something.

i, for one, will not be playing in the playoffs if these games do not count toward the 2014 league.

[Hank13]

@Boldfresh:

@bmnielsen:

That sums it up pretty well, I think. I would add the point about the extra playoff brackets as well - they aren’t really an “official” part of the league and participation is voluntary, so at least for them I think it makes sense to let them count for something.

i, for one, will not be playing in the playoffs if these games do not count toward the 2014 league.

You have convinced me - don’t count them!

In all seriousness, it doesn’t really make sense that one year’s games count towards the next (despite the arguments that have been made so far). If playing 4 games over 10 months next year is too difficult, I don’t see why you would want to be considered for the playoffs anyway, but that’s just me. Also, saying that counting these games ensures high-level players compete is a bit redundant as most already play each other, and this can be changed for next year’s league if ppg is how play-offs are decided. I personally don’t care as I probably won’t be playing in the playoffs regardless.

I would suggest that there are 2 simple solutions to this issue - 1. Gamerman/Jenn make an executive decision or 2. have the league members vote on their preference.