2013 - AAG 40 League

[boldfresh]

@bmnielsen:

@Gamerman01:

We will have at least 3 playoffs of 8 people each starting in November, so there won’t be as many regular season games being played in November/December anyway.

What about allowing the playoff games to also count for next year’s league, if both players agree?

in fact, i think it should not be a both players agree thing, i think it should be mandatory.  give me one reason why it shouldn’t be!

[gamerman01]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhOB4pSke42ydF93TUcwNFB2Y1JvYm9weThsdzV0cEE#gid=0

Sign up for the playoffs here, even if it currently looks like you will be in the top 8.  In case you don’t end up in the top 8, you will be signed up then.

Only 1 requirement - 4 completed league games by 11/1/13.

We currently have enough for 2 additional playoffs, for a total of 3.  If we have enough signups there will be a 4th bracket.

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I don’t have a reason against playoff games also counting for 2014 league other than it feels weird because it is never done in any sport at any level that I am aware of.  However, it does seem to make sense for our purposes.  After all, the rankings take into account strength of schedule….  so as long as next year’s playoff qualification is not determined by win % but by PPG…

[gamerman01]

Regarding signup for 2013 playoffs -
You are signing up for 1-3 games.  No bracket will take more than 3 games to win.

[lexgreat]

I don’t have a reason against playoff games also counting for 2014 league other than it feels weird because it is never done in any sport at any level that I am aware of.

There really is no connection that I can see. What is “our” purpose, then? The only thing that makes sense to take across to 2014 is “ranking / seeding”.
As a non-native speaker, I might not understand “strenght of schedule” correctly.

And why mandatory, Bold? Give me one reason why it should carry over, other than that you just want it to.

As for the calendar year, I am all for it.

[boldfresh]

@alexgreat:

I don’t have a reason against playoff games also counting for 2014 league other than it feels weird because it is never done in any sport at any level that I am aware of.

There really is no connection that I can see. What is “our” purpose, then? The only thing that makes sense to take across to 2014 is “ranking / seeding”.
As a non-native speaker, I might not understand “strenght of schedule” correctly.

And why mandatory, Bold? Give me one reason why it should carry over, other than that you just want it to.

As for the calendar year, I am all for it.

gamer, i can never get anything across to alex - can you please try to explain?  sheesh, this guy is scared of his own shadow!  :-P

[seth4god]

I’m actually with Alex on this one. What major sport carries over tournaments and/or playoffs to the next year? I don’t see the point in including the tourney results for next year.

[gamerman01]

Well I’m guessing they’re thinking that if these games are being played (and they are between league players) they might as well count for the next year.  Also, the playoff games are actually being played DURING the next season, unlike sports.
The Super Bowl is not played in September, when the teams could be playing their regular schedule.  In A&A league, you are playing playoff games at the same time everyone else is playing regular season.

Alex, Bold asked his question first and you gave no answer.  Give a reason why they shouldn’t count.  Then maybe Bold can answer why he wants them to count.

[boldfresh]

@seththenewb:

I’m actually with Alex on this one. What major sport carries over tournaments and/or playoffs to the next year? I don’t see the point in including the tourney results for next year.

sighhhhhhh……  no one else does it!  what a great argument.  how about considering the merits of such a proposal?

but before we do that, let’s go with your argument a bit.  which major sport (not sure why we are qualifying it as major sports when we are playing a board game but whatever) has it’s playoffs going on at the same time as its regular season?

Merits:  it allows for some of the top talent to get games in that will count toward the league minimums.  a lot of the better players don’t play all that many games in a year.  if they want to concentrate on their playoff games and maybe a tournament they are playing in, and that takes out a third or a half of their time to play league games, they may not even be able to qualify for minimum number of games.  Second thing is it generates some games between top players.  So, if you plan to get in the playoffs by preying on lower tiered players (alex???) then this may come as a blow.   :wink:

just some of my thoughts - how about we don’t use the “hey no one else does it” defense and come up with something better?   :-o

[boldfresh]

another thought:  you ever hear them say how an early regular season game “feels like a playoff game”?  i heard them say this about the season opener between the ravens and the broncos last sunday… well, it would sure spice up the playoffs if they also counted toward the start of the next season  :wink:

the point gamer was making regarding strength of schedule is this:  if you get beaten by a tier 1 player, it counts for more points to your playoff aspirations than if you lost to a lower tiered player.  i have heard talk of requiring a certain number of games against tier 1 players to qualify as league champion, so you need some of these games ANYWAY.  why not kill two birds with one stone?

[gamerman01]

So much for waiting for Alex’s answer first

[boldfresh]

@Gamerman01:

So much for waiting for Alex’s answer first

we will be waiting a long time for that answer.

[seth4god]

I just simply don’t see the reason why we should count them. With as much activity as there’s been this year, I don’t see how anyone playing a full year will have an issue meeting the minimum game requirements. I could maybe see the merit of this proposal if the activity were akin to the year before where a grand total of 35 whole games where played and counted in league play. This year league games should easily top 500 total games. Heck, there are many players whose total games this year exceed the total number of games played LAST year. So I’m not buying the we need these games to count towards the minimum games next year argument.

And if they’re the tourney games, then there’s no reason whatsoever to count them as early season games to spice up league play. That’s already being done by the tourney itself.

[boldfresh]

Once again progress gets delayed by the status quo.  I think the number of games players play will drop next year amongst the top players.  And in addition it will generate more league games BETWEEN top players.  I never said anything about tournament games counting toward the league.

[Seador]

@Gamerman01:

Alex, Bold asked his question first and you gave no answer.  Give a reason why they shouldn’t count.  Then maybe Bold can answer why he wants them to count.

I’d say because the motivation to play is entirely different, as is the perceived standard.  In a playoff or tournament (elimination) format I’d expect people to play to win.  By this, I sure wouldn’t expect a mulligan on a G1 when France goes tits up, or a UK1 when the Italian fleet demolishes the UK surprise attack, where I have been offered and offer rerolls in these scenarios during league play.

Likewise, as I posted in the league rule discussion area, not all players play league games for the same reason or with the same goals and it’s not fair to tie playoff players to a “must win” motivation for league play.

[Jennifer]

Maybe it’s just being a girl or just being a Geek, but I fail to see how sports and board games should mix. :P

Count, don’t count, I am not putting an opinion in.  I just wanted to comment on my feelings about using sports to justify arguments about board games.

[bmnielsen]

Wow, that sparked some debate :)

I mainly had three reasons for proposing it:

• As mentioned by others, the playoffs happen during the regular season, so it’s already kind of unorthodox compared to other tournaments.

• The extra playoff brackets that have been added are really just for fun - the winner of the second bracket isn’t a “champion” of anything. So I thought having the games count for something would sweeten the pot a bit. Perhaps it doesn’t make sense for the championship bracket though.

• For people like me who don’t have time for more than 1 or 2 simultaneous games, it can have a larger effect on how many games we manage to get in for the league. I don’t think anyone will be in danger of not hitting the minimum because of it, but at least for someone like myself, I’d like to have as many games played as possible so the rankings are as accurate as possible.

[lexgreat]

gamer, i can never get anything across to alex - can you please try to explain?  sheesh, this guy is scared of his own shadow!  :-P

Are you always running to Gamerman for help?

There is no need for help, and there is nothing you or Gamerman can “get across”. I simply dont see it your way. Thats not personal, otherwise I would oppose every argument and suggestion. Reasons have been put forward, one is that nowhere games can be forced against a certain opponent during regular seasons. You cannot force me to a game with you in the League (other than play-off, but we dont talk play-off, we talk games counting for regular season), so what justification you bring for being able to force games just because it is a play-off game for the 13 season?
That you would bring me as an example was to be expected, but it is my impression that percentage is not used for play-offs next year, and I made it very clear that I think thats very good that way. Your argument (I guess it is not an argument anyway, just a little barb) really is void.
Another is that likely the same rules will not be used. And another, simply, that even if it is true that we dont need to follow precedents or rules from other areas slavishly, something belonging to 2013 should not belong to 2014 as well simply because it feels, subjectively if you want, wrong. This is not about logic, you “feel” the picture is not muddled, and I “feel” it is very much so.

I also happen to agree with the notion that with so many games played, numbers alone dont seem to be convincing. I can see bmnielsen’s point, but the fact remains that those games would run under different aspects (not sure if that is proper English). All games counting should be played in the same time, under the same rules, with the same mindset and should feel “fresh”.

With the same arguments you offer, why not letting count the last 5 games everyone plays during this season for next saison as well? When play-off games for this season can count double, why not leage games?

Boldfresh: “Once again progress gets delayed by the status quo”

Just because it is from you, it is not automatically “progress”.
Its also not progress if it is from any other player. If I think retroactive changes dont make sense, and Gamerman thinks them necessary, do I vainly claim that Gamerman is in the way of progress?

Major things like this should get a vote, with enough players voting to get a representative result. And as always the majority decides.

Gamerman, one more thing: I would really appreciate if you dont moderate me like “Alex, Bold asked his question first and you gave no answer.” I gave my comment before going to bed, in my holidays. 30 minutes later Bold is running to you, and 6 more minutes later you state that I did not give an answer yet. Wow. Maybe start asking Boldfresh to refrain from remarks about other peoples personality? I am not keen to learn from Dr. Boldfresh (think thats how you called him lately) that I am scared from my own shadow.

And neither do I have to justify my opinions, nor do I have to justify them in the time you give me. No doubt strong, convincing, logical arguments make a better case to convince someone; and the ones put forward dont convince you. Thats fine. But yours (Bolds) simply dont convince me, either.

[boldfresh]

Chill out bro I didnt say anything with malice.  :-P. My point was give us reasons not just “no major sport does it”.  I know u r never gonna stop harping on the fact that I know gamer irl but u are just barking up the wrong tree bro.  Gamer is a free thinker that takes everything and everyone on its/their own merit.  If u wanna obsess I cant stop u but im just saying flesh out your reasons for something dont speak in cliche.

Cheers

[boldfresh]

As far as asking gamer for help I do so from time to time with a&a matters becuz I know of no one with a greater wealth of knowledge and experience qith the subject, with the possible exception of krieghund.

[bmnielsen]

@alexgreat:

I also happen to agree with the notion that with so many games played, numbers alone dont seem to be convincing. I can see bmnielsen’s point, but the fact remains that those games would run under different aspects (not sure if that is proper English). All games counting should be played in the same time, under the same rules, with the same mindset and should feel “fresh”.

With the same arguments you offer, why not letting count the last 5 games everyone plays during this season for next saison as well? When play-off games for this season can count double, why not leage games?

There is already a provision in the rules to allow unfinished league games at end of season to roll over to the next season, so there is some tolerance to rule changes. At this point it doesn’t look like the rule changes are going to be anything game-changing, but if that isn’t the case then obviously the games can’t be counted.

I don’t think anyone is arguing for games to be double-counted for both seasons. The playoffs are a bit of a special case, as the games are played at the same time as the next league season and, in the case of the extra playoff brackets, don’t really count for anything besides bragging rights.

If the issue is that some players don’t want their own games counted, but don’t have anything against the idea in principle, then we can just make it optional.