2013 - AAG 40 League

[Jennifer]

@alexgreat:

The rules allow for one and only one fighter, and for any number of artillery as long as a certain condition is met. Any decision is yours anyway, but on what rule or logic do you build a case for any unit other than inf and art? If the rules would say the fighter is replacable, Id see the case for a fig bid, but as it is I think only inf and art are what the rules allow. Again, any new rule for league play is up to league management, but I think it has a reason China is restricted the way it is.

The rules specifically say that the fighter cannot be rebuilt.  They do not say that China cannot get another if the United States bids another one for China.  In fact, the rules say nothing about bidding at all.

The rules do, specifically, state that no Chinese unit can leave Chinese soil (except Kwangtung/Burma) nor can it go in or over the ocean.  So that precludes bidding for any naval units.

Since even the artillery the Chinese get are, per the rules on page 10, American and not Chinese (color not withstanding,) and there is precedent for America putting non-infantry units into China before the game is begun, then I see no reason to disallow the players from using precedent and practice to put jeeps or tanks or any other non-base or non-naval unit in China for purposes of bidding.

Remember, the rules just specify these special units cannot be rebuilt after being destroyed.

[Cow]

I got a purple fighter. They represent private military contractors from America.

[Cow]

The artillery are not American. The Burma road is required to produce them. They get the supplies from India, which was a British occupied territory, how is that American? It is made in china.

[Jennifer]

@Cow:

The artillery are not American. The Burma road is required to produce them. They get the supplies from India, which was a British occupied territory, how is that American? It is made in china.

Read the rules again, Cow.  I even quoted them for you.  The Artillery are American as is the Fighter.

[Jennifer]

China can purchase and
mobilize artillery, but only if the road is open during China’s
Purchase and Repair Units phase. These artillery units will
be supplied by the United States player (because China does
not have any of its own), but are considered to be Chinese
units in all respects.

To clarify, the artillery units will be supplied by the United States because China does not have any of its own.  They may have pieces in the box, but those are not Chinese units, they are America units with paint on them to look Chinese.  They are not made in China, else they would not need the Burma road to be open and could produce them where they produce rifles for their infantry.

Since all non-infantry units in China are American, and there is precedent for America to give to China units it cannot otherwise attain, and because America is not limited as to what units it may produce, then the only restrictions on China are that the units cannot leave Chinese soil, Kwangtung or Burma.  Likewise, China is specifically barred from owning industrial complexes so those too are banned from bidding.  I’d say bases are banned as well, but honestly, if you are giving the allies enough IPC to use on bids that they can afford to put air and naval bases in China, then I think you deserve to both laugh at your opponent for doing so, and lose the game because you gave them WAY too much money.  But that’s just me.

[gamerman01]

@Cmdr:

they are America units with paint on them to look Chinese.  They are not made in China, else they would not need the Burma road to be open and could produce them where they produce rifles for their infantry.

I thought EVERYTHING was made in China!  :lol:

I’d say bases are banned as well, but honestly, if you are giving the allies enough IPC to use on bids that they can afford to put air and naval bases in China, then I think you deserve to both laugh at your opponent for doing so, and lose the game because you gave them WAY too much money.  But that’s just me.

The whole China bid controversy is hilarious.  If you bid anything but infantry or artillery (for China), it’s sub-optimal anyway.  Even with a 1 unit per territory limit.

Bidding is a league rule that is entirely at the discretion of the moderator.
Jennifer is the moderator.
Therefore, Jennifer can make whatever bid rules she wants.

She established the rule (for the first time in recent years) that you could bid a unit to a territory that had no units.  There wasn’t much complaint about that.

Anyway - you all are allowing the Allies to have bids that are too high.  If you allow a bid of 9, your opponent can put 3 infantry in Yunnan, and this has been legal ALL YEAR.  If you allow a bid higher than 9, you deserve whatever you get.  If you allow a bid of 4-6 and your opponent elects to place a mech or a tank in China - big whoop.  2 infantry in London is better than a tank in China, and 2 infantry in London is not an optimal bid.

[gamerman01]

Hey Cow, did 2nd edition actually include a purple fighter and some purple artillery, or are you just making that up?
In the original game, which I own, there are only light green Chinese infantry.  Purple is the color used in Triple A  :roll:

[Cow]

I remember a China box in both editions.

Aren’t they a lighter shade of green.

[Cow]

By default the pieces came a lighter shade of green. I painted over mine.

The fighter was weird looking, but it didn’t come from the USA box. When I opened the China bag it was there.

[Cow]

Someone can verify this I am sure. But if you lose your 1 china fighter… you got to use a USA one.

[gamerman01]

You got a different game than me…  I got P40 almost as soon as it came out.  
There is a China box in mine, but no fighter or artillery.  Just the light green infantry.  
Page 9 of the rule book that came with it says “China has a U.S. fighter unit located on the map.”  So, same as AA50 - use an American fighter piece.

What color did you paint your Chinese units??  Because China on the map is light green…

[gamerman01]

@Cow:

Someone can verify this I am sure. But if you lose your 1 china fighter… you got to use a USA one.

I’d like to hear of anyone else who actually got a China fighter with their game.
You don’t…. abuse any substances do you, Cow?

[Jennifer]

@Gamerman01:

@Cow:

Someone can verify this I am sure. But if you lose your 1 china fighter… you got to use a USA one.

I’d like to hear of anyone else who actually got a China fighter with their game.
You don’t…. abuse any substances do you, Cow?

Yea, can we refrain from baiting, please?

And I believe if you lose your fighter piece (assuming you have one) then you could use anything you wanted as long as the players playing with you all agree.  Personally?  I’d use a destroyer (probably Russian) just because no one is going to forget that the Russian destroyer represents the American fighter unit being controlled by the Chinese.

[Cow]

I sometimes bring USA fighters to mid China when I am the allies. That is how they get to Russia unless I go the europe route.

[Jennifer]

@Cow:

I sometimes bring USA fighters to mid China when I am the allies. That is how they get to Russia unless I go the europe route.

Yes, but how often do you bring Russian Destroyers to Szechwan to represent the Flying Tigers?  (They’re Red, and China is a “red” country now, and the Flying Tigers did destroy things, so destroyer fits too!  It’s almost poetic!)

I prefer to bring aircraft in from England.  However, I’ve brought them in through India and China.  Depends on well I am doing against the Japanese and how poorly I am doing against the Germans.

As for now, however, I’m going to stick with the ruling that China may bid the following units:

• Infantry
• Artillery
• Jeeps
• Armor
• Fighters
• Tactical Bombers
• Strategic Bombers

Theoretically I could hear the argument for Airbases & Naval Bases, but seriously, how many IPC are you giving your allied opponents???  And allies, why the FRAK are you buying airbases and naval bases for China instead of 5 infantry or a fighter???

I am on the fence with AA Guns.  Seriously, I could see an AA Gun bid be a game changer in as much as with Russian air cover there, it might be impossible for Japan to close the Burma Road for a round and that could snowball into an event I’d rather not see.  Unless there is a valid argument to allow an Anti-Aircraft gun?  (Dying to see Cow argue for the gun now, I really REALLY am! lol.  It was his idea that made me think about it.)

For now, unless you already have a game with a Chinese AA Gun in it, no Chinese AA Guns allowed for bid.  (Or navy.  NO NAVY it’s on page 10 of the manual for pete’s sake.)

[Cow]

Why would anyone get an armor for China? AA gun on yunnan round 1 is so much better. Hell that battle often fails for Japan to begin with, slap an AA gun on it.

[Cow]

I think the AA gun is a solid unit for China to open with. Yes it is a gamble, but it does eat a hit so your infantry can keep rolling. So the benefit is two fold.

I rather not see China get any of it.

[Jennifer]

@Cow:

Why would anyone get an armor for China? AA gun on yunnan round 1 is so much better. Hell that battle often fails for Japan to begin with, slap an AA gun on it.

Precisely my point.  I think the AA Gun bid for China is worth so much more than the IPC value of the gun and would cause so much distress for Japan (potentially) that I’d rather not permit it as a valid bid unit.

Imagine the worst case scenario:

• 3 Hits with the AA Gun
• Japan’s odds go way down to take the territory, let’s say they don’t take it (plausible with 3 less aircraft!)
• China gets to build Artillery with their starting money - if they so choose
  (I’d say the national objective, but they usually get it anyway unless Japan does significantly well.)

That unit, by itself, could change the entire outcome of the game if you apply the Butterfly Effect.  An infantry, an armor, heck another fighter for China does not have nearly the same potential, that I can see.

[Cow]

I tell you what. Next time I am China I’ll start the game with some infantry on yunnan and see how Japan does.

[Jennifer]

@Cow:

I tell you what. Next time I am China I’ll start the game with some infantry on yunnan and see how Japan does.

I’ll be glad to play you after I kill off Arathorn. =^_^=  You can have whatever you want from your bid there (of the units listed above.)  You can demonstrate right too me. Sound good?  (yes, I always think I am going to win, even if the enemy has 500 tanks at the border of the last VC they need and all I have is 1 infantry guy to hold them off!  No matter how improbable, the odds still exist that the one guy there will beat the 500 tanks!)