2013 - AAG 40 League

[nerquen]

What about making the playoff games low luck by default? Meaning unless both opponents agree on regular dice, a playoff game has to be played with low luck dice.

I have not played a low luck game yet, but I believe in a single game playoff match we would like to see the stronger players come victorious as opposed to luckier players.

[gamerman01]

@nerquen:

What about making the playoff games low luck by default? Meaning unless both opponents agree on regular dice, a playoff game has to be played with low luck dice.

I have not played a low luck game yet, but I believe in a single game playoff match we would like to see the stronger players come victorious as opposed to luckier players.

Nerquen,

As you said, you have not played a low luck game before.
If you think about it, a “low luck” game is in fact completely different than a regular dice game.  The strategy and tactics are extremely different.  The cunning and skill that got those players to the playoff game would be of little use to them.

In the words of Boldfresh, which I completely agree with here, low luck is a “bastardization” of the game  :-)

[nerquen]

@Gamerman01:

If you think about it, a “low luck” game is in fact completely different than a regular dice game.  The strategy and tactics are extremely different.  The cunning and skill that got those players to the playoff game would be of little use to them.

thanks, I have not realized that, but probably you are right

[boldfresh]

i have never played a low luck game, but i CRINGE at the
thought.

[Jennifer]

I would like to point out that per the bidding rules established for the league, you MAY bid tactical bombers, strategic bombers, armored units and any other land unit in China.  Unless, of course, I missed something in the rulebook explicitly saying you may not own these units for China.  (I believe the rules say you may not build the units, well, you aren’t you are bidding them into existence.  Not really the same as building them since you did not need an industrial complex to produce them.)

To recap, the rule says:

• You bid for units (represented by bidding for money to spend on units prior to game start), with any extra IPC (up to a maximum of 2 extra) can be used for buying units in the first round of play.
• You may only place units in territories you own at the start of your turn
  OR
• You may only place units in sea zones you start with naval units in at the start of your turn.

Page 10 of the Second Edition Pacific 1940 Rule Book:

At the beginning of the game, China has a United States fighter unit located on the map.  This represents the American volunteer group the Flying Tigers.  This fighter is considered part of the Chinese forces for purposes of movement and combat.  It cannot leave the territories that China is restricted to, even to attack and return.  If it is destroyed, the US player cannot replace this fighter unit for China.

---

In my opinion, this means you can bid American units into China as volunteers that, for the purposes of movement and combat, are considered part of the Chinese forces.

The rules do state that China may only purchase Infantry (with the exception of Artillery if the Burma road is open) but then go one to clearly abolish that rule when justifying a fighter unit for China.  That leads me to believe, as long as the first dice aren’t yet cast, China can bloody well get tanks or more planes or any other unit that meets the criteria for placing your bid.

That explicitly blocks them from putting naval vessels out, which is good since it closes the loophole that Chinese forces may only be in legal Chinese territories and may not leave, even to attack and return.

Thus, I have to say, Chinese Armor, Tactical Bombers, Strategic Bombers, more Fighters, Artillery, or more Infantry are all legal since they are not expressly restricted from Chinese control.  Unless, of course, I missed something, but I reread the 1940 Pacific Rule Book (2nd Edition) before posting this and I see nothing that says China cannot own a tank, they just can’t build a tank and cannot possess an industrial complex.

:P

(Oh, and feel free to use this against Cow.  I’m sure he’d love to have his Japenese attack plans screwed up by the addition of a few Chinese armored units added to the mix. lol.  Sorry, I couldn’t help it, you have your plan posted for all to see, and while I was impressed, I think you missed this aspect.  Be interesting to see if it holds up still.)

[Jennifer]

dang you spell check!  …then go ON… not one.  Sorry.

[gamerman01]

Have fun playing with non-infantry, artillery, or fighter in China with Triple A, since those units don’t exist in Triple A.

However, it is still possible.

You could put an allied tac/bomber/tank or whatever in China, and use edit mode to move it.  To roll for it with Chinese forces, you would just have to roll it manually on the site dice server and then edit for the results.

Inconvenient, but doable.

Now that said, I’m pretty sure the best use of your bid, if it’s going to China, is infantry/artillery or maybe a fighter.  It’s better to put two infantry in Yunnan than a tank in Yunnan or anywhere else, I would think.

[Jennifer]

Yea, you’re probably right on the best use of your bid units, but there’s nothing that I know that explicitly says you cannot bid other ones in.

And yea, that’s another fatal flaw for TripleA in my book. :P  My battlemap has support for those units. lol.

[gamerman01]

I answered your question on the FAQ thread - hope that helps

[Jennifer]

@Gamerman01:

I answered your question on the FAQ thread - hope that helps

Aye.

So, as it currently stands, unless there is some rule that even the great Gamerman does not know about, the following units are legal for bidding in AAG40 SE League:

• Infantry
• Mechanized Infantry
• Artillery
• Armor
• Fighter
• Tactical Bomber
• Strategic Bomber
  Or any combination thereof.

Making it work with TripleA isn’t my concern.  The inhouse dicey does work, and so does Abattlemap both of which are valid alternatives.  Or you can MacGuyver your TripleA as you see fit to make it work.

---

That said, just because you CAN bid those units for China, does not necessarily mean you SHOULD bid those units for China.

[Cow]

Why are aa guns not allowed? Those are units just like armor etc. Can they be a USA aa gun?

IMO this is the only community that allows illegal units for china.

[Cow]

I just don’t understand the arbitrary limitation of no AA guns. You allow everything else. Don’t see how an AA gun is different from an armor, fighter, or bomber.

[Cow]

Plus you cannot dictate how players play their bids out. We will come to our own agreements or simply play someone else…

[Cow]

Plus I do not think you play the game enough to understand how ridiculous 3 infantry on yunnan can get for a bid.

[gamerman01]

@Cow:

Why are aa guns not allowed? Those are units just like armor etc. Can they be a USA aa gun?

IMO this is the only community that allows illegal units for china.

I bet Jennifer just overlooked AA guns.  Nothing arbitrary about that.  All this discussion about alternate China bids is ridiculous and irrelevant.  You want to spend 5 IPC’s on a Chinese AA gun with your bid, you go right ahead.
Of course, that’s probably the best bid for you and you only, because your AA would hit 3 planes on J1.

This is the only community that allows “illegal” units for China because it’s the only community that has Jennifer in charge.

I already pointed out that infantry and artillery are the optimum bids for China anyway.  And no, Jennifer has played relatively little P40, E40, or G40, let alone 2nd edition.  And yet here she is making her queenly decrees  :-P

But really, she made the bidding rules at the beginning of the year and stayed silent on the issue of what Chinese units are allowed.  It’s not really a rule change - it’s a clarification.

@Jenn, I also pointed out that you should post your discussion about the league rules in the league thread and not spill over into the FAQ thread like you did.  But apparently you don’t read previous posts before posting more

[Cow]

Gamer what is preventing you from being a moderator? You are active. Doing stuff for the site already. What is going on here… lol

[boldfresh]

@Cow:

Gamer what is preventing you from being a moderator? You are active. Doing stuff for the site already. What is going on here… lol

Cow this makes infinite sense.  Im starting to think you are jekyl and hyde!  Bravo for this insight.  When I approached dave jensen suggesting the same I got a one word answer like “great” but no action.  That was probably over a month ago.  Gamer should be a moderator there is no doubt.

[Jennifer]

I do not believe the decision was arbitrary as I put quite a bit of thought behind it.

While it is true that if you play the game per the rules in the box, you may not have any of those units for your bid, it is likewise true that if you play the game per the box rules you cannot have any units for your bid.

Likewise, the game specifically adds in units just for the sake of units, despite barring China from being able to build them or replace them when lost.  Admittedly, it represents a historical unit, it is still using an American token to represent a Chinese piece.  Taking this as precedent, why not allow American tokens represent all Chinese bid for units?  After all, what is good for the goose is certainly good for the gander. (Page 10, Pacific 1940 Rule Book, Second Edition)

However, the most important consideration I had was this; is there any reason to BAR a player for bidding such units?  To this question, I have not yet heard a satisfactory answer.  However, China IS specifically barred from owning Industrial Complexes, therefore, no amount of bidding will be allowed to which China may have an Industrial Complex of either Major or Minor status (not to mention, they don’t start with any territories that qualify for the unit per the rules of the unit.)  Subquestions of this category are:

• If China were to be allowed a tactical bomber, would this give the allies an unfair advantage? 
  ** Not that I can think of, although, Japan may be a bit more interested in moving some of their AA Guns around, which would be nice, or they could choose to not change their game play at all.
• If China were to be allowed to have tanks or mobile infantry (I don’t like the term Mechanized, deal with it) would it have an effect on the game disproportionate to allowing any other bidded unit? 
  **I cannot think so.  Yes it would allow for China to blitz liberate some of their own territories, and that could really be a thorn in Japan’s side, but there is nothing stopping Japan from blitz-blocking as every other nation is encouraged to do.
• What about naval units?
  ** Well, China is not specifically barred from bidding on naval units, the problem is, the rules stipulate you could only place said units in sea zones you start with naval units and since China does not start with any naval units, there’s no where for them to place any they bid for.  That also solves the whole, China not being allowed to have units outside of Chinese approved territories.
• What about bases?
  ** Well now, if your opponent allows you to bid that high, and you are so inclined, then feel free to put them on the board for China.

As for AA Guns, yes, China could place them on the board.  Other than Yunnan round 1, not really seeing a need to use them for China, but if you are okay taking the risk, I am okay with letting you.

Units BARRED for China in the bid:

• Submarines
• Transports
• Destroyers
• Cruisers
• Aircraft Carriers
• Battleships
• Minor Industrial Complexes
• Major Industrial Complexes

[Jennifer]

@Boldfresh:

@Cow:

Gamer what is preventing you from being a moderator? You are active. Doing stuff for the site already. What is going on here… lol

Cow this makes infinite sense.  Im starting to think you are jekyl and hyde!  Bravo for this insight.  When I approached dave jensen suggesting the same I got a one word answer like “great” but no action.  That was probably over a month ago.  Gamer should be a moderator there is no doubt.

G’luck with that.  I still need my mod powers fixed on some boards and it’s been over a year.  He’s got a liaison tag, and I trust him to make routine decisions which are good until I negate them in league (if I confirm them, they’re good forever, right?)

[Cow]

Well here is the thing about 1 unit per territory that makes sense. A place like yunnan which has 12 ipc already on it and is part of a China NO… becomes defendable. I put an aa gun, an inf and fly russian air on it… all of a sudden Japan’s 8 unit attack is outgunned.  When Japan cannot hit yunnan in the first round, that is it. May as well call the pacific off.